Class 365 - What if they werent scrapped?

[zwk500]

Actually, I believe they plan on electrifying on almost the entire UK railway system. The only exceptions are lightly used lines where hydrogen or battery will be used instead.

There's a big difference between having a plan, as in a funded, resourced and scheduled plan to completion, and a map categorising lines into 'yes, maybe and probably not'.

 

[ashkeba]

From May 18 it was quite common to see on local social media groups conversations asking which services were worked by “the comfy trains”. These local social media groups certainly aren’t geared round enthusiasts, so it’s a reasonable supposition that the vast majority of this discussion was being had by “normal users”.

Yes, the front end of the 365s was quite distinctive and recognised by many "normal" travellers. It looked happy and put passengers in a better mood. Later builders have missed a trick there but maybe it would not have been enough to counteract the harder seats.

 

[bramling]

That is an obvious point as to their supposed use with LNER; can 365 be guard-operated? I can hardly imagine LNER operating them DOO, unless there is some modification for DCO or something.

They were certainly guard operated during their Connex days.

 

[Energy]

I’d personally like to see them return to Southeastern

Not really possible, most of the third rail equipment was removed a while ago. I cant remember where but somebody gave a more in depth explanation.

Actually, I believe they plan on electrifying on almost the entire UK railway system. The only exceptions are lightly used lines where hydrogen or battery will be used instead.

Somebody might have said that somewhere but there has been no formal announcement.

 

[ashkeba]

Not really possible, most of the third rail equipment was removed a while ago. I cant remember where but somebody gave a more in depth explanation.

I think you may be thinking of https://railforums.co.uk/threads/government-takes-ownership-of-class-365-fleet.189660/post-4173799 which says "[the reference set was] lost at Crewe works during the closure. The rest went in the skip." It also says there was also some unsolved problem with circuit breaker timings on DC and some monitors that were transferred to 465s that are now obsolete and so cannot be replaced easily; and the coupler is wired differently and the train geared differently to 465s.

It is difficult for 365s to return on AC after a few months to years and it would be very very difficult for 365s to return on DC after almost two decades.

 

[Energy]

I think you may be thinking of https://railforums.co.uk/threads/government-takes-ownership-of-class-365-fleet.189660/post-4173799 which says "[the reference set was] lost at Crewe works during the closure. The rest went in the skip." It also says there was also some unsolved problem with circuit breaker timings on DC and some monitors that were transferred to 465s that are now obsolete and so cannot be replaced easily; and the coupler is wired differently and the train geared differently to 465s.

It is difficult for 365s to return on AC after a few months to years and it would be very very difficult for 365s to return on DC after almost two decades.

Thanks for linking it.

 

[brad465]

I am aware that they are currently electrifying York to Church Fenton but not beyond to Leeds.

This is correct, which is essentially doing the basic minimum to get more electric potential out of a few bi-mode operations and in anticipation for a HS2 section that's currently fighting for survival. Given this attitude to electrification here, I doubt any new electrification in the near future will support a 365 cascade.

Perhaps Ian Yeowart could order 365s as the basis of a Grand Union trains fleet to Stirling or wherever he wants to operate to now. It would hardly be the most ridiculous aspect of any of his dreams.

 

[Aictos]

365’s are not returning to Great Northern as they no longer have the DOO monitors available along the route.
I’d personally like to see them return to Southeastern. 23 365’s could replace the 377/5’s which then could return to Southern to potentially replace the 313’s and they’d work well with the 465’s and 466’s

Point of order, just because the DOO monitors or Mirrors may have been removed does not mean that the fleet cannot return to service on the GN as they can still be manually dispatched by platform staff using either flag and bat or CD/RA.

Case in point, at Stevenage they dispatched 3, 4, 6, 8 coach trains for years using CD/RA without having to rely on DOO monitors.

It is foolish to assume that just because one part of railway infrastructure isn't there that it prevents the use of specific rolling stock point in case the Class 365s.

That is an obvious point as to their supposed use with LNER; can 365 be guard-operated? I can hardly imagine LNER operating them DOO, unless there is some modification for DCO or something.

To answer your question, can the Class 365 fleet be operated by Driver/Guard? The answer is yes they are already set up and don't need any modifications to allow speculative use with LNER as a example remember they were used by ScotRail between Edinburgh and Glasgow which was not DOO IIRC.

 

[MML]

York to Edinburgh half hourly all stations service with the unit leaving York and Newcastle immediately after the Edinburgh express which only calls at Newcastle. By the time the 365 has reached Newcastle it can follow the next nonstop Edinburgh service. Stopping at York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick upon Tweed and Edinburgh giving frequent local connections not currently provided by LNER expresses.

 

[JonathanH]

York to Edinburgh half hourly all stations service with the unit leaving York and Newcastle immediately after the Edinburgh express which only calls at Newcastle. By the time the 365 has reached Newcastle it can follow the next nonstop Edinburgh service. Stopping at York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick upon Tweed and Edinburgh giving frequent local connections not currently provided by LNER expresses.

Alas, York to Newcastle is a route already identified as having too many trains with 2 each hour for LNER, XC and TPE, plus trains to Middlesbrough and the Durham Coast and East Coast Trains to come. Adding another two isn't going to fit in with that issue, particularly as all you are really adding is a connection from Thirsk.

To get 2tph 365s you would arguably need to lose XC off the route.

 

[bramling]

https://twitter.com/AndyRCowell/status/1443557587941793799?s=19

What a waste

Yes a few million pounds of taxpayers money being flushed down the drain in front of our eyes there, the result of a completely failed rolling stock “strategy”.

No defence of it - 365501 barely did 20 years in traffic.

 

[Spartacus]

Just noted 57310 taking 365501 & 365511 to Booths. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04677/2021-09-30/detailed

 

[brad465]

Just noted 57310 taking 365501 & 365511 to Booths. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04677/2021-09-30/detailed

Yes if this carries on for the rest before someone else intervenes, the answer to this thread is their future is non-existent, or at least not in the form of a train service.

 

[richardcoughla]

Yes a few million pounds of taxpayers money being flushed down the drain in front of our eyes there, the result of a completely failed rolling stock “strategy”.

No defence of it - 365501 barely did 20 years in traffic.

I agree. They could have gone somewhere that really needs some upgraded stock

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2021 ==

I

I don't get sentimental about vehicles being recycled, but yeah, that one made me sad

Those are one of my favourite EMUs. I'm surprised those units are going for scrap given they are at least half way through their working lives.

 

[JonathanH]

I agree. They could have gone somewhere that really needs some upgraded stock

There isn't any such place currently running AC units.

 

[Doomotron]

No defence of it - 365501 barely did 20 years in traffic.

To be fair, in many countries that's when units start being withdrawn.

 

[fgwrich]

There isn't any such place currently running AC units.

If only we had a suitable 100MPH railway in need of a fleet of units to operate on it, Oh we do and it's called East West. But of course the logic of electrifying it from the start hasn't reached the DfT yet.

A real shame that these are heading for the bin already, the 365s really were the best of the Networker bunch.

 

[adc82140]

If only we had a suitable 100MPH railway in need of a fleet of units to operate on it, Oh we do and it's called East West. But of course the logic of electrifying it from the start hasn't reached the DfT yet.

A real shame that these are heading for the bin already, the 365s really were the best of the Networker bunch.

Even if it was electrified, I doubt it would see stock as old as the 365s. I can see the headlines now "clapped out trains from the 90s to run on new railway".

 

[fgwrich]

Even if it was electrified, I doubt it would see stock as old as the 365s. I can see the headlines now "clapped out trains from the 90s to run on new railway".

Well, they done have much of a choice - it's either going to be second hand stock from somewhere else or a miraculous small order for a micro fleet. Given that East West is one of these set up by the government companies, it would have been an ideal place to use a chunk of the fleet - though it would have meant a little more time in storage (or refurbished at Doncaster etc!)

 

[JonathanH]

Well, they done have much of a choice - it's either going to be second hand stock from somewhere else or a miraculous small order for a micro fleet.

I though it was now anticipated that they will be using spare capacity in WMT's 196 fleet for a short period.

 

[bramling]

Even if it was electrified, I doubt it would see stock as old as the 365s. I can see the headlines now "clapped out trains from the 90s to run on new railway".

This is exactly the sort of thing we should be moving away from. The industry should be quite able to justify using mid-life stock where appropriate, without being scared of attracting damaging headlines.

It doesn’t help that there’s been some messes with trying to recondition old stock, but in all these cases there’s been more to the story, like trying to do significant repurposing, or in the case of the EMR 360s allowing a period of “do minimum” maintenance if what we’re led to believe is true.

 

[Mamorin]

The trouble with the notion of electrifying something or other is that the lead time for any new scheme will be a few years. Some of the 365s have already been stored for over 3 years now, and whilst there’s supposed to have been an element of “warm store”, sadly in practice they will already have deteriorated somewhat.

They need to find use pretty much *now* if they are to have a future. Unfortunately aside from returning to GN I can’t think of anything obvious. Northern would have been a contender, but they are now keeping the 323s, so we’d simply have been reading a new thread on what to do with the 323s!

In reality some of the new fleets shouldn’t have been procured.

I’d still put the 365s back on GN and do a cascade to bin the 313/455 fleets on Southern. It will be interesting to see how GTR plan to get of these, if indeed they do.

I don’t see how Northern would have been a contender for the 365s if Northern were not keeping the 323s.

Like what would the 365s have replaced? The 365s have a lower capacity than the 319s and 323s so the 365s could not have replaced either of those.

 

[bramling]

I don’t see how Northern would have been a contender for the 365s if Northern were not keeping the 323s.

Like what would the 365s have replaced? The 365s have a lower capacity than the 319s and 323s so the 365s could not have replaced either of those.

Depends how one defines capacity. Lower seat capacity certainly, but I’d bet you can fit more people overall in a 365 compared to a 319 or 323. Likewise in the longer term Northern could have looked towards 8-car operation where necessary.

I can see no massive reason why 323s to Birmingham (no CrossCity fleet replacement) and all 40 365s to Northern couldn’t have been made to work, should that course of action have been chosen (though there would have been the issue that at the time 21 365s were committed to GTR for the foreseeable future).

The West Midlands franchise didn’t need new EMUs at all. The 350/2 saga is another cautionary tale when it comes to rolling stock strategy.

The whole situation with rolling stock deployment and procurement is a case of left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

 

[Mamorin]

Depends how one defines capacity. Lower seat capacity certainly, but I’d bet you can fit more people overall in a 365 compared to a 319 or 323. Likewise in the longer term Northern could have looked towards 8-car operation where necessary.

I can see no massive reason why 323s to Birmingham (no CrossCity fleet replacement) and all 40 365s to Northern couldn’t have been made to work, should that course of action have been chosen (though there would have been the issue that at the time 21 365s were committed to GTR for the foreseeable future).

The West Midlands franchise didn’t need new EMUs at all. The 350/2 saga is another cautionary tale when it comes to rolling stock strategy.

The whole situation with rolling stock deployment and procurement is a case of left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

8 Car working on the NW Northern network is impossible as most stations on the Northern network can’t and may never be able to fit 8 car trains on the platforms.

Total capacity seating + standing on a non PRM Modded non airport 323 was 357 according to the Northern franchise agreement. ot sure what the total capacity on a 365 is.

Another major issue with moving the 365s to Northern would be gauging, there is a chance the 365s may not have been able to run on the Northern network at all due to gauging issues.

Speaking of moving all 323s to the Birmingham, that was ment to happen back in either 2009 or 2012 and Northern Rail would have ordered new stock to replace the 323s. This was back when the DFT had a rolling stock strategy.

Porterbrook tried to send all the 323s to Birmingham back in 2018, but WMT had ordered the 730s by then so that ended that plan.

Tbf I agree the West Midlands franchise did not need new trains, 323s have a good few years left in them and 350/2s are quite young.

If the 365s had higher seating than the 319s and had been off lease when Northern Rail needed more EMUs back in 2013-2014 then maybe then the 365s would have ended up with Northern Rail instead of 319s.

 

[brad465]

This week's RAIL magazine has a large item on the 365 scrapping, and claims that conversion to 3rd rail isn't a difficult job. Not that it would make a difference as many of them are in pieces now and clearly no 3rd rail operator has sought to have them.

What's interesting I think is I do wonder if at least some of the 365s would still be around and back in use with SE had the Government still owned them and the OLR move happened back in March 2020 (when the contract was last extended), as suddenly the Government could have brought in a fleet with no leasing costs.

 

[Domh245]

This week's RAIL magazine has a large item on the 365 scrapping, and claims that conversion to 3rd rail isn't a difficult job. Not that it would make a difference as many of them are in pieces now and clearly no 3rd rail operator has sought to have them.

RAIL claiming that the conversion is easy (without it being a quote from someone who'd actually know) carries the same credibility as a user on here with under a 100 posts claiming it in a speculative ideas thread (with all due respect to new posters starting threads in this subforum!)

 

[swt_passenger]

RAIL claiming that the conversion is easy (without it being a quote from someone who'd actually know) carries the same credibility as a user on here with under a 100 posts claiming it in a speculative ideas thread (with all due respect to new posters starting threads in this subforum!)

It‘s amazing that we’ve still got magazines, (and this thread), that are discussing a 365s future at all, given the obvious evidence against…

 

[liamf656]

I've updated the title of this thread to better reflect the current status of the class, as the writing has been on the wall for them for a while now and the first few units have now gone for scrap.

Discussions are still welcome, but rather than discussing the future (or echoing that there isn't one), we could see this thread as a "what could have been" had they not been destined for scrap

 

[muddythefish]

365s have an almost perfect layout for outer suburban services, which is what people liked about them. For example:

- Decent seats, I've never heard anyone complain about them in more than 20 years of almost daily travelling on them
- Reasonable seat pitch
- Good window layout
- Good mix of bays and airline seats catering for groups and families (admittedly slightly ruined by the GTR dumbing down refresh in 2015)
- 2+2 seating with wide aisles allowing plenty of standing passengers during disruption and busy times
- Fast loading thanks to the wide doors, large vestibules and triangular tables

The original layout included carpet and was probably the best fitted outer-suburban layout on the network. I took a a spin with a couple of forum members (not 365 regualrs) in the final week of 365 operation and they were impressed by the layout and spaciousness.

Of course enthusiasts also like:

- the fantastic whining sound of the motors
- the hopper windows

In fact there was nothing quite like travelling on a 365 on a hot summer evening on the down fast at 100mph with all the windows open . A wind in the hair experience, sadly missed.

Brings back memories for me of summer evening trains from KX after a day at work.

I really liked the 365s (before their refit). In their day they were the best laid-out and comfiest units on the network

 

[ashkeba]

I really liked the 365s (before their refit). In their day they were the best laid-out and comfiest units on the network

They were good units and better than what replaced them but let's not go too far. They had not enough luggage racks or bike spaces and the luggage racks were uncomfortable when you had to sit on them on busy peak service.

Als o, they were better than many diesels than remain in service now. It's a heart shame that they are scrapped before.