Class 365 withdrawal suggestions

[Domh245]

Because of the ongoing yaw damper attachment issue with the CAF junk?

All the usual issues that have cropped up with 365 rehoming (Anglia being a prime example) around maintenance and training would still be in place though. And unless the CAF issues are a long term issue (which given the fact most units are still running around) then it just doesn't stack up

 

[43096]

All the usual issues that have cropped up with 365 rehoming (Anglia being a prime example) around maintenance and training would still be in place though. And unless the CAF issues are a long term issue (which given the fact most units are still running around) then it just doesn't stack up

But...... the 365s are returning to Eversholt ownership and the 195/331 fleet is Eversholt owned.

Given that the CAF issue needs to have a long term fix developed and tested even before it is deployed and that the nature of the fault is fatigue related, then it can be expected that other units will be stopped as time goes on. I cannot see this being a short-term issue.

 

[fgwrich]

But...... the 365s are returning to Eversholt ownership...

Aren't they actually returning to Train Fleet Limited aka the arms length DfT company? I thought the Eversholt ownership finished in 2019 when they were returned back to the Department for Transport.

 

[43096]

Aren't they actually returning to Train Fleet Limited aka the arms length DfT company? I thought the Eversholt ownership finished in 2019 when they were returned back to the Department for Transport.

They are currently owned by Train Fleet, but has been reported that under the terms of the contract that they go back to Eversholt ownership shortly.

 

[Energy]

But...... the 365s are returning to Eversholt ownership and the 195/331 fleet is Eversholt owned.

Staff training and getting them cleared for the routes will need to happen, it just doesn't make sense, very few of the 331s got withdrawed.

 

[43096]

very few of the 331s got withdrawed.

So far.....

They will also need to find replacements for the 195s, which given the lack of DMUs nationally, may mean running some services that would otherwise be DMU under the wires as EMUs with DMU shuttles on the unwired bits e.g. Barrow and Windermere.

 

[Energy]

So far.....

Doesn't look likely to be more units though, the problem has only occurred recently. There are also 10 319/3s in storage which would make more sense to take on short term.

 

[365 Networker]

Northern getting 365s seems unlikely to me (although I would like to see them used). The only way I can see them taking them is if the leasing costs were much less than the 323s, but even then there would be additional costs for re-training drivers and possibly increasing some platform lengths.

 

[bramling]

Northern getting 365s seems unlikely to me (although I would like to see them used). The only way I can see them taking them is if the leasing costs were much less than the 323s, but even then there would be additional costs for re-training drivers and possibly increasing some platform lengths.

The 323s are a better bet for Northern because they have a very high seating capacity for a 3-car unit. Not necessarily wonderful if you don't like 3+2 seating, but a better bet operationally!

I still remain of the view that the best place for the 365s was where they were, but Covid has messed that up. Unfortunately there really isn't anywhere else immediately obvious, as there's already EMUs spare or about to be spare. Too many new EMUs have been built lately.

A small-scale suburban electrification scheme would be ideal, keeping the units on GN in the mean time to keep them going. Cardiff area would have been absolutely ideal, but that's now got another solution.

 

[365 Networker]

Unfortunately there really isn't anywhere else immediately obvious, as there's already EMUs spare or about to be spare. Too many new EMUs have been built lately.

There's always east-west rail if they come to their senses and electrify it! Other than that, there really isn't anything else obvious for them.

 

[A0]

Sounds unlikely. Why would Northern go for 365s over the 323s they aren't already taking on.

Why instead of 323s - they're 3 car units.

Could it be to replace Northern's older 4 car 319, 321 and 322s?

There are 19, 3 and 5 of those respectively. That's 27, plus additional 365s could be taken on it they wanted to extend some services ?

 

[43096]

The 323s are a better bet for Northern because they have a very high seating capacity for a 3-car unit. Not necessarily wonderful if you don't like 3+2 seating, but a better bet operationally!

Yes, but if the situation gets worse with the CAF junk - and there is a good chance of that given the nature of the defect - then they won't be able to wait for the 323s. And as I posted above, they'll need to cover the 195s as well.

If you have to replace the CAF units medium term then 365s tick many of the boxes:
- available
- PRM compliant
- 100mph max speed
- "regional express" type interior
- good acceleration (certainly way better than a 319)
- same owner, so likely to be beneficial from a cost point of view

Not saying it will happen, but if the CAF sets are a longer term problem, then 365s represent an option worth exploring. It's a not dissimilar situation to the 385s in Scotland that saw the 365s used.

 

[Journeyman]

Why instead of 323s - they're 3 car units.

Could it be to replace Northern's 319, 321 and 322s?

There are 19, 3 and 5 of those respectively. That's 27, plus additional 365s could be taken on it they wanted to extend some services ?

This is completely wishful thinking from the 365s MUST BE SAVED AT ALL COSTS brigade. There's no work for them. They're going to be scrapped. They're a non-standard fleet with very limited route clearance that is close to 25 years old, on a railway awash with surplus EMUs to much more standard designs.

 

[43096]

Why instead of 323s - they're 3 car units.

Could it be to replace Northern's older 4 car 319, 321 and 322s?

There are 19, 3 and 5 of those respectively. That's 27, plus additional 365s could be taken on it they wanted to extend some services ?

Northern have no 321s or 322s and the 319s are earmarked for replacement by 323s from West Mids - do keep up!

 

[A0]

Northern have no 321s or 322s and the 319s are earmarked for replacement by 323s from West Mids - do keep up!

Sorry, thought the 321/2's were still around.

Didn't realise the Wm 323s were to replace the 319s.

This is completely wishful thinking from the 365s MUST BE SAVED AT ALL COSTS brigade. There's no work for them. They're going to be scrapped. They're a non-standard fleet with very limited route clearance that is close to 25 years old, on a railway awash with surplus EMUs to much more standard designs.

I don't actually mind either way. Was just looking at what I thought Northern still had.

 

[Energy]

Yes, but if the situation gets worse with the CAF junk - and there is a good chance of that given the nature of the defect - then they won't be able to wait for the 323s. And as I posted above, they'll need to cover the 195s as well.

That is a big if, didn't the 158s have the same issue? Even if they need more units then there are 319s in storage which would be better suited.

I don't see the need to call the CAF units junk, they aren't the best but they aren't complete rubbish, their acceleration is excellent. Other manufacturers do have better trains but they cost more, remember that for a while Northern would not get any new rolling stock due to the government calling it bad value for money. Bombardier have also been having issues with the Aventras, and its not like they are the best of quality.

Didn't realise the Wm 323s were to replace the 319s.

Yeah, Porterbrook originally put the 323 leasing super high so Northern would use other trains and the 323s would go to the WM. WMR is replacing them so they are staying at Northern and the WMR units (bar 9) are going to Northern.

 

[43096]

That is a big if, didn't the 158s have the same issue? Even if they need more units then there are 319s in storage which would be better suited.

As you say, 331s have excellent acceleration so 319s aren't going to cut it in terms of replacement. The owner situation also matters a lot - the ROSCO will want to provide cover from its own resources if it can (as Porterbrook have provided 153s to TfW to cover the 769s).

I don't see the need to call the CAF units junk, they aren't the best but they aren't complete rubbish, their acceleration is excellent. Other manufacturers do have better trains but they cost more, remember that for a while Northern would not get any new rolling stock due to the government calling it bad value for money.

So they have good acceleration, but... poor seats, poor ride quality and a fundamental flaw with their yaw damper attachment. Yep, I think junk is fair.

 

[bramling]

This is completely wishful thinking from the 365s MUST BE SAVED AT ALL COSTS brigade. There's no work for them. They're going to be scrapped. They're a non-standard fleet with very limited route clearance that is close to 25 years old, on a railway awash with surplus EMUs to much more standard designs.

The thing with the 365s is that they're popular where they are, and this isn't a trainspotter thing, but a popularity with people who actually *use* them (or, at least, people who *did* use them until last spring!).

Unfortunately I do agree that due to Covid the future doesn't look promising for them at this moment.

 

[Ianno87]

(or, at least, people who *did* use them until last spring!).

Therein lies the problem!

 

[Journeyman]

The thing with the 365s is that they're popular where they are, and this isn't a trainspotter thing, but a popularity with people who actually *use* them (or, at least, people who *did* use them until last spring!).

Unfortunately I do agree that due to Covid the future doesn't look promising for them at this moment.

Well, I like them too - we had them up here on the Edinburgh to Glasgow line for a while, and I'd happily have them back, but realistically there's nowhere left for them. They're pretty much unique, and that creates training and maintenance issues that are much more complicated to resolve than using other surplus EMUs.

 

[bramling]

Therein lies the problem!

But not that much of a problem when there’s still over 60x 313 and 455 units south of the river, where any spare Electrostars would be better deployed.

 

[Ianno87]

But not that much of a problem when there’s still over 60x 313 and 455 units south of the river, where any spare Electrostars would be better deployed.

Though requiring a much more complicated series of cascades and training requirements when Class 365 withdrawal can be done basically overnight at minimal cost.

 

[Journeyman]

But not that much of a problem when there’s still over 60x 313 and 455 units south of the river, where any spare Electrostars would be better deployed.

The 313s and 455s are clearly not considered much of a problem right now.

 

[Ianno87]

The 313s and 455s are clearly not considered much of a problem right now.

The current problem is simple: Save money and reduce the operational cost of the railway where this is not currently needed for short/medium term likely demand. That's it.

 

[bramling]

Though requiring a much more complicated series of cascades and training requirements when Class 365 withdrawal can be done basically overnight at minimal cost.

This is the trouble, they seem to have gone for an "overnight" option as you say. To me it's pretty knee-jerk when there's still DC fleets at work, and in the case of the Southern 313s now ancient. The 365s ought to attract a dirt-cheap lease, maintenance is minimal on account of their low mileage diagrams, and training requirements are nothing as they're already there.

It's storing up a potential headache if passenger numbers do come back.

The 313s and 455s are clearly not considered much of a problem right now.

And that's the issue - binning a decent recently refurbished half-life fleet whilst stuff from the 1970s continues to work, simply to make an immediate-term saving.

 

[Ianno87]

This is the trouble, they seem to have gone for an "overnight" option as you say. To me it's pretty knee-jerk when there's still DC fleets at work, and in the case of the Southern 313s now ancient. The 365s ought to attract a dirt-cheap lease, maintenance is minimal on account of their low mileage diagrams, and training requirements are nothing as they're already there.

But on the flip side, dirt cheap to essentially write-off.

It's storing up a potential headache if passenger numbers do come back.

A really big "if" at this stage. Rolling stock is not the most difficult issue to solve if push comes to shove (albeit with some lead time if newly procured stock is required).

 

[A0]

But not that much of a problem when there’s still over 60x 313 and 455 units south of the river, where any spare Electrostars would be better deployed.

How many 319s are sitting around unused (or soon to be in the case of the LNW ones?).

Must be enough to replace the 313s at the very least.

 

[Energy]

As you say, 331s have excellent acceleration so 319s aren't going to cut it in terms of replacement. The owner situation also matters a lot - the ROSCO will want to provide cover from its own resources if it can (as Porterbrook have provided 153s to TfW to cover the 769s).

Acceleration is difficult, the 331s have the best of any train. The 319s have an acceleration or 0.55m/s^2, 0.65m/s^2 for the 365s and 1.3m/s^2 for the 331s. Eversholt will want to use their own fleet but it will still be largely up to Northern who may not want to do staff training, the 153s had less of a problem as there was already some at TfW and the training course is a lot shorter when you are already trained for another type of Sprinter.

So they have good acceleration, but... poor seats, poor ride quality and a fundamental flaw with their yaw damper attachment. Yep, I think junk is fair.

Ignoring seats, thats the fault of Arriva not CAF, their ride isn't great so junk isnt totally unjustified but the expectations some have of the units is unfair. Many seem to forget how unwilling the government was to spend loads of the Northern franchise so if another more expensive manufacturer was chosen then there would likely be less new trains.

 

[skyhigh]

The owner situation also matters a lot - the ROSCO will want to provide cover from its own resources if it can (as Porterbrook have provided 153s to TfW to cover the 769s).

That's a very good point. I suspect it's unlikely 365s will move up, but, if a fleet is needed to cover - it would seem to be a sensible choice.

Many seem to forget how unwilling the government was to spend loads of the Northern franchise so if another more expensive manufacturer was chosen then there would likely be less new trains.

And as somebody who actually has to work the things, I'd have much rather had a smaller number of higher quality trains.

 

[Irascible]

That is a big if, didn't the 158s have the same issue?

IIRC ( and that's a big if ) the 158 issue was the brackets detaching, which was solved by just attaching them better ( bigger bracket I think? ) - this looks more like bits are actually shearing off, which suggests ( speculatively ) that either one part is out of spec ( like the damper being overly stiff ), or the whole system is not properly designed - which immediately begs the question of what *else* isn't. There's a seperate thread on the matter, so let's not derail this one.