Class 387 to GN

[Failed Unit]

387's on Thameslink only had first class at one end not both. Thameslink is unusual that it turns units in service so having first class at either end make sense (for the 8 cars). Logic then dictates that carries over the the 12 car as well.

Makes sense on great northern as well, I don't think you will find a single passenger that objects to the positioning on the 365s.

If people say "but people wallk through the interunit gangways" where ever first class is on a train people walk through it. The present positioning on the 387s people need to walk through it to get the to the toilet. (as is the case on the 317s)

 

[Failed Unit]

Bad evening tonight on great northern but lucky passengers on the 1822 kx - Cambridge get declassified first. (£1 for each one that can't tell the difference) on a cosy 4 car set.

Don't think oh i can't get on will go to the pub for 1852. It is cancelled.

 

[philjo]

16:53 KX - Cambridge was a 4 coach 365 this evening instead of 387. Far more seats to choose from when I boarded at WGC !

Looks like 17:22 was also running as 4 coach as the screens on the platform at WGC were saying that first was declasssified. a few Moorgate services appeared to be cancelled.

 

[notverydeep]

Bad evening tonight on great northern but lucky passengers on the 1822 kx - Cambridge get declassified first. (£1 for each one that can't tell the difference) on a cosy 4 car set.

Don't think oh i can't get on will go to the pub for 1852. It is cancelled.

And not just GN. My attempt to get to the 1822 early enough to get a declassified first class ironing board ended when the train to St. Pancras (a class 700) sat down at the old King's Cross Thameslink platforms for 34 minutes. The driver clearly had to isolate just about every circuit to eventually get it moving and the train behind was actually worked wrong line past it, despite it being high Peak time! With the 1822 long gone and the 1852 cancelled I had to make do with the slow train to Welwyn Garden City, the 1858. At least I got a seat...

 

[Starmill]

I was on the 1758 Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City the other day. The from 4 coaches (of 8) were deserted - and it wasn't that slow.

 

[jon0844]

I was on the 1758 Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City the other day. The from 4 coaches (of 8) were deserted - and it wasn't that slow.

So little has changed - hence why I get on at the front and walk down later for Hatfield. Is first class still declassified in the new timetable?

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes. (Although the 1658 is a 387 so doesn't make any difference )

The only "short" which has first class advertised is the 0942 WGC - London. No idea why but it is never full unless it is short formed.

 

[adamedwards]

387 on the 0857 off Hatfield this morning. On the fast line making up for a 3 min delay now we are south of Potters Bar.

 

[bramling]

Bad evening tonight on great northern but lucky passengers on the 1822 kx - Cambridge get declassified first. (£1 for each one that can't tell the difference) on a cosy 4 car set.

Don't think oh i can't get on will go to the pub for 1852. It is cancelled.

GTR excelled themselves again later on.

2104 KX to Cambridge - cancelled
2107 KX to Peterborough - cancelled (both announced as being due to lack of available train crew)
2122 KX to Peterborough - turned up as 1x387 instead of booked 2x387.

I decided to opt for the spacious comfort of 2x317 on the 2134 instead. Observing the 2122 depart it could be seen to be absolutely crush loaded, so I dread to think what happened at Finsbury Park. The 387s really don't cope well with crush loading.

GTR are simply the worst operator I've experienced on GN. Worse than Prism. Worse than First Capital Connect. Worse than National Express. Worse than British Rail. I really think it's time to start with someone fresh. Can things be any worse than GTR?

 

[bramling]

387's on Thameslink only had first class at one end not both. Thameslink is unusual that it turns units in service so having first class at either end make sense (for the 8 cars). Logic then dictates that carries over the the 12 car as well.

Whichever way anyone tries to spin it, the positioning on the GN 387s just doesn't make any sense.

Issues with placing the first class where it is:

1) Guarantees people will be walking through it, either when joining the train, or to access a toilet.

2) By placing it at one end of the train it opens up the possibility of some trains facing the other way, which is exactly what has happened with the GN 387s.

3) First class is positioned directly above a motor bogie which gives a poor ride - especially on 387s which don't ride well. One wouldn't mind if there was a trade-off benefit, for example the location offering privacy like on the 365s, but what they've done on the 387s doesn't offer this.

4) Biggest problem of all: technically the vestibule in the first class area on the 387s is unavailable for standard-class passengers to stand in. If standard class passengers do stand here, legitimately or not, this will disturb first class passengers. On a train where seating *and* standing capacity is already compromised compared to what they are replacing, this is a major problem.

5) We now have a situation where one doorway arriving at busy platforms is unavailable to standard class passengers trying to find a seat. Worse, it's unpredictable at the moment because the trains face different ways. Misery for standard-class passengers who if they are unlucky enough to find the relevant door stops where they are standing then they are last in the queue for seats (despite potentially having arrived early), and misery for first-class passengers who get disturbed at every station stop.

6) The isolated standard-class section beyond the first-class is missed by many. This increases crowding on the rest of the train, already compromised because the 387s has less seating and standing capacity compared to what it is replacing.

GTR need to move the first-class to be located at both ends. Someone will confirm, but I believe this would retain the same number of seats, but would improve the situation for everyone, and release one vestibule on the train for standard class passengers to use, which otherwise is currently wasted.

 

[jon0844]

I've forgotten which way round it is, but with no symbols on the front of the train (that would help), I think you can look at the pantograph to see what end first class will be (as I always do with the 317s) but that does only work if you are in a position to see the pantograph clearly. Not so good at night.

GTR does need to change things though. I have no idea what it was thinking doing this, as you've listed perfectly all the reasons why it doesn't work, and - shockingly - I can't think of any counter arguments that I, GTR or anyone else could use. It really is an open and shut case that first class should not and CAN not be as it is.

RPIs seem to hate it too, and think it's a joke. While some may love the idea of 'easy pickings', I think some will think it unfair and either show a lot of discretion, or simply seek to avoid these trains for as long as possible.

 

[bramling]

I've forgotten which way round it is, but with no symbols on the front of the train (that would help), I think you can look at the pantograph to see what end first class will be (as I always do with the 317s) but that does only work if you are in a position to see the pantograph clearly. Not so good at night.

GTR does need to change things though. I have no idea what it was thinking doing this, as you've listed perfectly all the reasons why it doesn't work, and - shockingly - I can't think of any counter arguments that I, GTR or anyone else could use. It really is an open and shut case that first class should not and CAN not be as it is.

RPIs seem to hate it too, and think it's a joke. While some may love the idea of 'easy pickings', I think some will think it unfair and either show a lot of discretion, or simply seek to avoid these trains for as long as possible.

It's also potentially dangerous, as the last thing needed is people moving around on busy platforms when the train arrives, when to their dismay they see the first class section is going to stop alongside where they are standing. Likewise first class passengers will find themselves needing to move elsewhere. On a packed train they may not be physically able to move through the train - especially with the constricted gangway on the 387s.

Keep saying it, but the 365 is such a better train for the route!

 

[jon0844]

The 387s will be fine when they move on to the fast services. Quite luxurious in fact.

Hopefully we'll then get the 365s (and 700s) and everyone will be happy.

The 700s are ultimately what we need, and the 387s as a stopgap isn't really working out well. It wouldn't have been so bad if all 4 cars had become 8, but what seems to be happening more is that 8 cars become 4!

 

[notverydeep]

GTR are simply the worst operator I've experienced on GN. Worse than Prism. Worse than First Capital Connect. Worse than National Express. Worse than British Rail. I really think it's time to start with someone fresh. Can things be any worse than GTR?

Be careful what you wish for. Everyone said it couldn't be worse than FCC. It is much worse. At the start of GTR there was a run of big Network Rail or external failures. Now it is almost all TOC on self. Staff moral and IR across the whole of GTR must be rock bottom.

It clearly can get worse. Every week GTR show us how!

 

[bramling]

Be careful what you wish for. Everyone said it couldn't be worse than FCC. It is much worse. At the start of GTR there was a run of big Network Rail or external failures. Now it is almost all TOC on self. Staff moral and IR across the whole of GTR must be rock bottom.

It clearly can get worse. Every week GTR show us how!

I never thought FCC was too bad at all - at least not on the GN side. Thameslink may well have been another matter.

The bottom line is that under National Express and FCC the trains tended to run and generally punctuality varied between acceptable and good. I can't remember mass cancellations under either operator - especially at peak times. You turned up at the station, the train turned up, and generally reached destination on time. Anything else was the exception.

Nowdays under GTR, a journey where everything goes to plan is the exception.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 387s will be fine when they move on to the fast services. Quite luxurious in fact.

I wouldn't call the 387s luxurious - not even quite luxurious.

Something like an EMT class 222 could fit the bill - which ironically one can catch for a relatively short journey like Luton to London.

In terms of specification, apart from plug sockets and air conditioning, a 387 offers little more to the passenger than the 321s they have replaced. They offer even less for the large numbers of people who don't like the hard seats.

 

[Skimble19]

Well despite various press releases going out saying the 321s had been removed from service as of last Sunday/Monday, there's still a fair few of them out and about this morning! Seems like they just don't want to leave GN

 

[notverydeep]

I never thought FCC was too bad at all - at least not on the GN side. Thameslink may well have been another matter.

The bottom line is that under National Express and FCC the trains tended to run and generally punctuality varied between acceptable and good. I can't remember mass cancellations under either operator - especially at peak times. You turned up at the station, the train turned up, and generally reached destination on time. Anything else was the exception.

Nowdays under GTR, a journey where everything goes to plan is the exception.

Despite FCC having a poor reputation, your perception is similar to my experience commuting throughout the FCC franchise (I started just before WAGN finished). I started off quite sympathetic to GTR, partly as they had a lot of infrastructure problems on both routes early on and partly because they had problems with too few drivers recruited before their contract started.

A change of office location in late 2013 meant that I added a Thameslink component to my commute but only across the core. I think the latter has 'flattered' my experience of Thameslink - any train will do.

Because of this potential bias in my perception, I took a look at the data on the ORR website (plus the Network Rail's for the latest period). This covers the period from the end of 2010, so the last half of FCC and GTR to date. It is interesting and confirms the sense of 'it really has never been as bad as this'. Last full period the PPM was 65.1% for GN and 60.1% for Thameslink. Thameslink does have a major multi-day infrastructure failure to point to (the wires shorting the signals at Luton). I don't think GN has any such excuse. This is truly dire and in the past the 'right time' measure has been higher than this.

The dataset does show the period before last where GN was worse (which I remarked on in an earlier post to this thread), but that this is not the norm, illustrating my experience is happier on Thameslink than someone needing a particular train might be.

For the first half of the period the two obtained fairly similar levels of reliability, with Thameslink usually only slightly the worse. The data indicates that significant issues, particularly on Thameslink were dragging down performance well before GTR took over (which was in period 6, 2014-15).

 

[bramling]

Well despite various press releases going out saying the 321s had been removed from service as of last Sunday/Monday, there's still a fair few of them out and about this morning! Seems like they just don't want to leave GN

I think the feeling is mutual with many passengers.

Technically GTR may well be accurate however, as the 387s have generally taken over the intended diagrams. What they are doing now is generally covering for unavailable 365s, which is not quite the same thing.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well despite various press releases going out saying the 321s had been removed from service as of last Sunday/Monday, there's still a fair few of them out and about this morning! Seems like they just don't want to leave GN

Saw a couple heading empty to KX at WGC. Assume they are the empties for the 1758. (Which were 317s last week). The 1843 seems to still be 321.

Is it just me but the 387s seem to be regularly cancelled/ short formed. Surprisingly with how many are in Hornsey.

 

[jon0844]

Could it be driver training issues? Some drivers can't sign them, and some trains that split would need another driver that can sign, hence short forming?

Just a guess, but I don't think the 387s are particularly unreliable (for all their faults, that isn't one of them AFAIK).

 

[bramling]

Saw a couple heading empty to KX at WGC. Assume they are the empties for the 1758. (Which were 317s last week). The 1843 seems to still be 321.

The 1843 is actually booked 2x365, and has always been, however it just happens to be one of the diagrams which are suitable for 321s to appear. The reason for this is that the pair stays attached all day, and combined with another diagram they can start at Hornsey, work for the day finishing at Peterborough, stay overnight at Peterborough, and then work for the day and finish at Hornsey. Alternatively the diagrams can be swapped over at Cambridge during the midday to suit needs, thus making a Peterborough start/finish diagram and a Hornsey start/finish diagram.

I suspect that when the 321s finally go, this diagram will be likely to throw up 2x317 or 2x387 on a regular basis.

Is it just me but the 387s seem to be regularly cancelled/ short formed. Surprisingly with how many are in Hornsey.

Yes. However this is more a crew issue than a unit availability issue.

 

[Failed Unit]

Done a couple of days on 725 Cambridge- London this week. (0825 wgc). Getting close to Christmas seat both ways and on-time.

One thing still needing sorting. They have first class labels on the doors as per Thameslink and the yellow line above the rest of the coach. This implied the whole rear coach was 1st. Not that anyone cared and just sat down in the whole coach. Definitely think people have less guilt as it there is no difference in seats. But they really need to sort the labels. Someone applied the yellow stripe so surely the could have removed the old door label at the same time.

 

[jon0844]

People really don't seem to care, although some possibly don't know because if others are sat down, they'll block the antimacassars and there's not much else to signify you being in first - given Govia's apparent attempts to save money by not putting up obvious signs.

If the seats look identical and there's no obvious improvement in the look and feel of the place over any other part of the train, you may not even look for the signs that say first class.

 

[Failed Unit]

Does anyone have a list of all the diagrams for 387s now? I have manage to work out another one because it is advertised as 3 car. 7 in the peak.

 

[Mordac]

Does anyone have an ETA for all remaining Thameslink 387s making it over to GN?

 

[D365]

Does anyone have an ETA for all remaining Thameslink 387s making it over to GN?

As far as I recall, the transfer was supposed to be complete this month, however it seems that not many, if any, of the Class 317/1s have been replaced on Great Northern.

 

[bramling]

As far as I recall, the transfer was supposed to be complete this month, however it seems that not many, if any, of the Class 317/1s have been replaced on Great Northern.

No 317s have been replaced on GN, there are still 10x 317 weekday diagrams, same as before the 387s arrived, although there has been a slight shuffling around as the 387s aren't always working exactly the same services as the 321s were.

I believe the plan is for all 317 diagrams to go over to 387s overnight on a date in February 2017. Whether any 317s will remain for a time, probably covering unavailable 365s as the 321s currently are, remains to be seen.

 

[Failed Unit]

As and example.

0727 Cambridge- London
0904 London - Cambridge
1055 Cambridge- London.
1234 London - Peterborough
1416 Peterborough- London.
A return to Royston
1822 London - Cambridge.
Return journey.
2104 London - Cambridge

Used to be a 317. They are now 387s as is 1658 London - wgc.

 

[bramling]

As and example.

0727 Cambridge- London
0904 London - Cambridge
1055 Cambridge- London.
1234 London - Peterborough
1416 Peterborough- London.
A return to Royston
1822 London - Cambridge.
Return journey.
2104 London - Cambridge

Used to be a 317. They are now 387s as is 1658 London - wgc.

Yes, however there are 321 services which became 317, so the overall number of weekday 317 diagrams remains identical.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, however there are 321 services which became 317, so the overall number of weekday 317 diagrams remains identical.

Agreed. The 1758 London - WGC is such a service on the times i have used it since December. The 0705 WGC - London is also a 317 now where it always used to be a bin.