Class 390s without TASS

[PlexiDriver]

What happens if the TASS is faulty on a 390? Do they run them at the lower speeds or are they just taken out of service? I ask because it's double the number of speed limits for drivers to know if they have to drive to the lower speeds in TASS areas!

 

[Boodiggy]

With TASS active they can run at EPS speeds up to 125mph and with no Tilt they can only run at PS speeds so currently 110mph, but with the new MU speeds being rolled out for class 805/807 they will be able to run at those speeds so up not 125mph still but in far fewer places. The current EPS speeds have some areas with differential speeds for class 390 and 221 will be removed so there will be a PS, MU and EPS profile of linespeeds.
The Speed Supervision (SS from TASS) should still work without the Tilt Authorisation (TA from TASS).
Hope that makes sense.

 

[PlexiDriver]

So for drivers do they just have to suck it up and know the speeds with and without TASS activated for 390s and 221s?

 

[Boodiggy]

yes exactly that. It would be unlikely a set would be taken out of service for a TASS fault.
You sometimes get a TASS fault affecting one cab and not the other too.

There will be a lot more speed changes when the MU speeds are rolled out soon!

 

[PlexiDriver]

That's crazy!! How do they remember the whole route and all the speeds haha! I speak as a driver myself I just find it insane they have to know all of the speeds. Shame there isn't a nice easy, TASS is always 15mph or something hahaa.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Only once have I travelled out of Euston on a train with tilt disabled. It was a 221 to Chester.
It was also a day when the live train speed was shown on the internal PIS*, and it was noticeable that the 110mph PS speed limit was closely observed.
The underlying PS 110 limit has not materially changed since BR days, and extends over the vast majority of the route.
It's the EPS speeds which added the complication (assisted by TASS).
The new MU speeds will not be TASS-assisted.

*Why doesn't that speed display happen all the time, if the trains have the capability?
It's quite common to see the live train speed on high speed trains abroad.

 

[Boodiggy]

Only once have I travelled out of Euston on a train with tilt disabled. It was a 221 to Chester.
It was also a day when the live train speed was shown on the internal PIS*, and it was noticeable that the 110mph PS speed limit was closely observed.
The underlying PS 110 limit has not materially changed since BR days, and extends over the vast majority of the route.
It's the EPS speeds which added the complication (assisted by TASS).
The new MU speeds will not be TASS-assisted.

*Why doesn't that speed display happen all the time, if the trains have the capability?
It's quite common to see the live train speed on high speed trains abroad.

I remember this on the Pendo’s - never saw it go above 109mph!

That's crazy!! How do they remember the whole route and all the speeds haha! I speak as a driver myself I just find it insane they have to know all of the speeds. Shame there isn't a nice easy, TASS is always 15mph or something hahaa.

The WCML south of Crewe isn’t too bad but north of it there are a lot of speed changes.

 

[twpsaesneg]

That's crazy!! How do they remember the whole route and all the speeds haha! I speak as a driver myself I just find it insane they have to know all of the speeds. Shame there isn't a nice easy, TASS is always 15mph or something hahaa.

Surely if you sign a route you sign to say that you know all speed profiles, not just the ones applicable to the stock you normally drive? EPS is no different to any other differential speed.

 

[Boodiggy]

Surely if you sign a route you sign to say that you know all speed profiles, not just the ones applicable to the stock you normally drive? EPS is no different to any other differential speed.

You can be EPS and PS in the same stock is the risk here! But yes, you should know all applicable speeds, and for WCML this will include the bi-di in the Trent Valley too.

 

[louis97]

but with the new MU speeds being rolled out for class 805/807 they will be able to run at those speeds so up not 125mph still but in far fewer places.

At present there is a national exception that prevents 390s running at MU or EMU speeds. If this remains they will continue to be limited to the base line speed without TASS in operation. There are already MU125 speeds in place between Coventry and Rugby and Wolverhampton and Stafford, and 390s cannot use these speeds when running without TASS in operation.

 

[AJDesiro]

With TASS active they can run at EPS speeds up to 125mph and with no Tilt they can only run at PS speeds so currently 110mph, but with the new MU speeds being rolled out for class 805/807 they will be able to run at those speeds so up not 125mph still but in far fewer places. The current EPS speeds have some areas with differential speeds for class 390 and 221 will be removed so there will be a PS, MU and EPS profile of linespeeds.
The Speed Supervision (SS from TASS) should still work without the Tilt Authorisation (TA from TASS).
Hope that makes sense.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but 390s aren't permitted to run at MU or EMU speeds - at least according to the latest sectional appendix.

EDIT: Looks like @louis97 has beat me to it!

 

[dk1]

I’ve been on a 390 from Crewe where no information has been passed on that TASS was isolated only for it to be overtaken en-route by several others.

 

[Boodiggy]

At present there is a national exception that prevents 390s running at MU or EMU speeds. If this remains they will continue to be limited to the base line speed without TASS in operation. There are already MU125 speeds in place between Coventry and Rugby and Wolverhampton and Stafford, and 390s cannot use these speeds when running without TASS in operation.

They have been reclassified to run at MU with the vehicle change dated at least two years ago.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but 390s aren't permitted to run at MU or EMU speeds - at least according to the latest sectional appendix.

EDIT: Looks like @louis97 has beat me to it!

They are classed to run at MU speeds. The fact they do not currently is likely a company restriction while the EPS differential still applies but once the new route wide MU profile between Kilburn and Weaver Jn is introduced they will use MU if non tilt.

 

[E6007]

A 390 can be 'required' to run at PS rather than EPS for safety reasons if any coach is overloaded. Theory is that standing passengers might be at risk.

 

[dk1]

A 390 can be 'required' to run at PS rather than EPS for safety reasons if any coach is overloaded. Theory is that standing passengers might be at risk.

I always thought it was due to weight. Why would they be at risk anymore than somebody walking through to the shop?

 

[Boodiggy]

I always thought it was due to weight. Why would they be at risk anymore than somebody walking through to the shop?

I think the overload sensors are only in certain coaches. Happy to be corrected. Is only active with door interlocking too.

 

[Carlisle]

There are already MU125 speeds in place between Coventry and Rugby and Wolverhampton and Stafford,

125 between Wolverhampton-Stafford has existed since about 2004 for compatible non tilt stock .

 

[Trackman]

A 390 can be 'required' to run at PS rather than EPS for safety reasons if any coach is overloaded. Theory is that standing passengers might be at risk.

Strange one this, in the VTWC days there have been occasions when standing passengers have been told to sit on the floor. I think this was due to weight distribution (hence sensors), so like all pax are sat on the right-hand side of the train. A Pendo driver on this forum will know this for certain, I don't know the definitive answer.

 

[louis97]

They have been reclassified to run at MU with the vehicle change dated at least two years ago.

Two years ago?! Wow, guess I'm not surprised NESA hasn't been updated.

 

[Boodiggy]

125 between Wolverhampton-Stafford has existed since about 2004 for compatible non tilt stock .

Two years ago?! Wow, guess I'm not surprised NESA hasn't been updated.

Never a surprise with that not being updated!
It may ever have been longer - it would match the application date for the MU Network Change. From memory it is referenced in it.

 

[dk1]

I think the overload sensors are only in certain coaches. Happy to be corrected. Is only active with door interlocking too.

Would be a tad uncomfortable but never unsafe.

 

[PlexiDriver]

So are the MU speeds significantly different? Could you have 110, 120 and then EPS 125 for example? Not including the freight traffic speed!

Does anyone have any techniques for learning this all!! hahaha

 

[Boodiggy]

So are the MU speeds significantly different? Could you have 110, 120 and then EPS 125 for example? Not including the freight traffic speed!

Does anyone have any techniques for learning this all!! hahaha

yes - many of the MU speeds are 115 / 120mph with PS 110 and EPS 125.

 

[driver9000]

So are the MU speeds significantly different? Could you have 110, 120 and then EPS 125 for example? Not including the freight traffic speed!

Does anyone have any techniques for learning this all!! hahaha

There are even locations with 2 EPS speeds listed in addition to the PS linespeed (certainly on the Northern section) depending on whether the train is 221 or 390. Some curves have no EPS enhancement so all trains run at the conventional speed. An Avanti Driver has a lot to remember but you will be given time to learn everything you need to know as with any route learning to build up in stages.