Class 398’s aren’t going to be used on the valleys lines anymore, and are going to stay between Treforest and Cardiff only ?

[Avowedsevern]

Moderator note: Split from

South Wales 'Metro' updates

I thought it would be worthwhile to start a discussion on the South Wales 'Metro'. Basically, this is the scheme to enhance transport links across south east Wales. One of the key issues that needs to be addressed is what form of transport will be used on the Cardiff Valley lines network -...

www.railforums.co.uk

Have just been told by a TfW employee that the Class 398’s aren’t going to be used on the valleys lines anymore, and are going to stay between Treforest and Cardiff only — supposedly they’re not suited for the journeys up the heads of the valleys. Anyone else heard anything about this?

Official documentation still says Class 398’s are going to run from the heads of the valleys

 

[John R]

Have just been told by a TfW employee that the Class 398’s aren’t going to be used on the valleys lines anymore, and are going to stay between Treforest and Cardiff only — supposedly they’re not suited for the journeys up the heads of the valleys. Anyone else heard anything about this? Official documentation still says Class 398’s are going to run from the heads of the valleys

I find that hard to believe, if not incredulous. There are no services that terminate at Treforest, there won't be enough work for them, and there won't be enough other stock to run the services up the TAM valleys.

 

[Markdvdman]

For starters, Treforest has no passing loop!!! If it was Pontypridd maybe. However, if that was true it would be a public disaster. Personally, I think 398s on heavy rail with no toilets is asking for trouble. Hey ho.

 

[stuu]

Have just been told by a TfW employee that the Class 398’s aren’t going to be used on the valleys lines anymore, and are going to stay between Treforest and Cardiff only — supposedly they’re not suited for the journeys up the heads of the valleys. Anyone else heard anything about this? Official documentation still says Class 398’s are going to run from the heads of the valleys

That's the sort of rubbish you get in all manner of companies about anything new. What has changed since they were ordered?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Have just been told by a TfW employee that the Class 398’s aren’t going to be used on the valleys lines anymore, and are going to stay between Treforest and Cardiff only — supposedly they’re not suited for the journeys up the heads of the valleys. Anyone else heard anything about this? Official documentation still says Class 398’s are going to run from the heads of the valleys

I would highly doubt it.
Mess room talk gets into weird and wonderful rumours with absolutely no basis quite often.

Frankly, most staff you meet, don’t know that much about trains or have that much interest either.


To add to that, what stock would actually run those services instead ?


Unless something more official comes along I would put that in the baseless rumours pile.

 

[positron]

Have just been told by a TfW employee that the Class 398’s aren’t going to be used on the valleys lines anymore, and are going to stay between Treforest and Cardiff only — supposedly they’re not suited for the journeys up the heads of the valleys. Anyone else heard anything about this? Official documentation still says Class 398’s are going to run from the heads of the valleys

Frankly it sounds like a load of nonsense to me. Wouldn't make any sense to do this.

 

[Daniel Boone]

Plays into my never-land, crackhead theory that all the tram-trains will be eventually and gradually be cascaded down to work exclusively on Cardiff Crossrail services as they come to fruition and a new batch of FLIRTS will be ordered for the remaining 3 heads of the valleys.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Moderator note: Split from

South Wales 'Metro' updates

I thought it would be worthwhile to start a discussion on the South Wales 'Metro'. Basically, this is the scheme to enhance transport links across south east Wales. One of the key issues that needs to be addressed is what form of transport will be used on the Cardiff Valley lines network -...

www.railforums.co.uk

Have just been told by a TfW employee that the Class 398’s aren’t going to be used on the valleys lines anymore, and are going to stay between Treforest and Cardiff only — supposedly they’re not suited for the journeys up the heads of the valleys. Anyone else heard anything about this?

Official documentation still says Class 398’s are going to run from the heads of the valleys

Only chance of a grain of truth in the above is that this is only temporary. I am not sure which parts of the final Tram-Train network are most ready (electrified) but an interim/first-step might be from Taffs Well south to the Bay or from Pontypridd southwards. Starting it from Treforest seems daft as Pontypridd surely has a better track layout for reversing ?.

Maybe Radyr past Central to the bay via a rapidly built link.

Plays into my never-land, crackhead theory that all the tram-trains will be eventually and gradually be cascaded down to work exclusively on Cardiff Crossrail services as they come to fruition and a new batch of FLIRTS will be ordered for the remaining 3 heads of the valleys.

Lets hope for a radical rise in demand (and capacity) for many trams on the streets of Cardiff !.

I assume Bog standard Flirts (pun/dig intended) please.

 

[56xx]

This week’s issue of RAIL has a feature on the Metro (and also Cardiff East Parkway). A couple of nuggets from the article:

• Train crews will start working out of Taff’s Well depot “later in the Autumn” and this will allow more intensive testing and crew training on the 398s
• 398s will enter service “next summer” and initially be deployed on the Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay service

It would be good if the 398s were confined to the shorter journeys such as Pontypridd - Cardiff Bay, Coryton line and possibly Caerphilly - Penarth / Cardiff Bay

The latest press information on the closure of the Coryton branch mentions the 756s will start on that line in spring 2025.ilway groups

What a waste of a unit designed for longer distance journeys on a branch which is the natural habitat for the 398s

 

[Transilien]

Couldn’t have full electrification of the Valley lines be perused rather then the trams to create a proper s-bahn type system for South-East Wales? I remember this was being proposed before the metro project came through. Why did the Welsh government pick bi-mode trams over that? I don’t hate trams but I think that it would have been better to see a Cardiff tram system to replace busy bus routes rather than whatever we’re getting now.

 

[MikePJ]

What a waste of a unit designed for longer distance journeys on a branch which is the natural habitat for the 398s

Yeah, Mark Barry (the professor who helped make the case for the metro) feels the same as you, that the Coryton service ought to be 398s. Maybe it will be one day, but I can see why we’ve ended up with 756s at this stage: it’s about access to the depot and the fact that it’s extremely expensive for TfW to pay Network Rail to make modifications to the lines south of Queen Street. If the Penarth branch had wires then the 398s might well have been a good option.

 

[anthony263]

Yeah, Mark Barry (the professor who helped make the case for the metro) feels the same as you, that the Coryton service ought to be 398s. Maybe it will be one day, but I can see why we’ve ended up with 756s at this stage: it’s about access to the depot and the fact that it’s extremely expensive for TfW to pay Network Rail to make modifications to the lines south of Queen Street. If the Penarth branch had wires then the 398s might well have been a good option.

Mark Barry's book has some pretty interesting reading including a link from the bay branch towards Cardiff Central and rebuilding Cardiff West junction to allow at least 4tph.

The plan was to ease pressure at Queen Street ad the new link off the bay line would have allowed Rhymney trains etc to reach central reducing some crossover movements. A replacement bridge over Newport road which could accommodate 3 tracks was also proposed.


He still thinks we should extending the Coryton branch over to Morganstown and Taff's well

 

[Kanzo]

Assuming this is true what will be used instead of the 398s? Is there even enough current stock to substitute in place of the 398s?

 

[anthony263]

Assuming this is true what will be used instead of the 398s? Is there even enough current stock to substitute in place of the 398s?

I doubt it.

There's talk of TFW wanting to order additional class 756s If they can run to Bristol TM. If the Coryton branch is extended and we get more wiring I'd like to see some changes such as running all Treherbert services to Penarth that way there is still some direct services from Penarth and Grangetown to Treforest and Pontypridd etc

 

[DanNCL]

Not inconceivable to think that the 398s might initially enter service only as far as Pontypridd as part of a gradual introduction but they’ll eventually run the full length of The Valleys. Not sure about the Merthyr line but definitely the Treherbert and Aberdare lines have both had money spent on upgrading them for the 398s, TFW wouldn’t just throw that away.

As for unsuited, I don’t buy that. I fail to see how this is any different to tram-trains running 1 hour+ trips out of Karlsruhe. It’s a proven concept, albeit one proven abroad rather than in the UK.

That said I’ll agree it’s nuts that Coryton and Penarth are getting FLIRTs when glorified trams are going on much longer routes.

Assuming this is true what will be used instead of the 398s? Is there even enough current stock to substitute in place of the 398s?

I doubt it.

There's talk of TFW wanting to order additional class 756s If they can run to Bristol TM. If the Coryton branch is extended and we get more wiring I'd like to see some changes such as running all Treherbert services to Penarth that way there is still some direct services from Penarth and Grangetown to Treforest and Pontypridd etc

The only way to remove the 398s from the equation would be to keep the 150s for another few years. Never going to happen.

 

[Towers]

I doubt it.

There's talk of TFW wanting to order additional class 756s If they can run to Bristol TM. If the Coryton branch is extended and we get more wiring I'd like to see some changes such as running all Treherbert services to Penarth that way there is still some direct services from Penarth and Grangetown to Treforest and Pontypridd etc

Why on earth do TfW need to run to Bristol TM? There is already a two TPH GWR service, plus another two to Parkway. I thought the modern, cash-strapped railway was against the idea of needless duplication over one route?

 

[anthony263]

Not inconceivable to think that the 398s might initially enter service only as far as Pontypridd as part of a gradual introduction but they’ll eventually run the full length of The Valleys. Not sure about the Merthyr line but definitely the Treherbert and Aberdare lines have both had money spent on upgrading them for the 398s, TFW wouldn’t just throw that away.

As for unsuited, I don’t buy that. I fail to see how this is any different to tram-trains running 1 hour+ trips out of Karlsruhe. It’s a proven concept, albeit one proven abroad rather than in the UK.

That said I’ll agree it’s nuts that Coryton and Penarth are getting FLIRTs when glorified trams are going on much longer routes.



The only way to remove the 398s from the equation would be to keep the 150s for another few years. Never going to happen.

Don't forget the 398s will reduce the journey time from Treherbert aberand merthyr to Cardiff to 48-50 minutes. The plan I've been told and have seen mentioned is a soft launch next June on thehald

Why on earth do TfW need to run to Bristol TM? There is already a two TPH GWR service, plus another two to Parkway. I thought the modern, cash-strapped railway was against the idea of needless duplication over one route?

New local services and it eases overcrowding on those 2tph currently running to Bristol TM and allows them to be sped up.

If you used them regularly or live in south wales you'll see there is moat certainly the demand for them

 

[Towers]

New local services and it eases overcrowding on those 2tph currently running to Bristol TM and allows them to be sped up.

If you used them regularly or live in south wales you'll see there is moat certainly the demand for them

Knocking out STJ on some GWR services would make sense I guess!

 

[The exile]

Why on earth do TfW need to run to Bristol TM? There is already a two TPH GWR service, plus another two to Parkway. I thought the modern, cash-strapped railway was against the idea of needless duplication over one route?

Call it service enhancement combined with adding a new stopping service. Not sure that adding an extra 2tph stopping at 3 or 4 stations that don’t currently exist as well as 1 or 2 that are currently poorly served counts as unnecessary duplication. Who actually runs them is pretty irrelevant as long as ticketing etc is structured to make it irrelevant.

 

[56xx]

Wandering off again. I thought this was about 398s being restricted to shorter journeys on the Valley lines.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Wandering off again. I thought this was about 398s being restricted to shorter journeys on the Valley lines.

I think a vacuum of information is leading to "theories".

There may be no information to corroborate as there is no such plan.

I am in the camp of interim use on a limited network before full roll out.

 

[MikePJ]

I am in the camp of interim use on a limited network before full roll out.

They’re due to be introduced on Pontypridd - Cardiff Bay services initially, so that fits with your hunch.

 

[56xx]

I recall a number of incidents with pacers coming down from Quakers Yard to Abercynon and I believe a sand drag was installed with entry controlled by Abercynon signal box. I presume the entry was activated by the signaller when the driver sounded continuous horn.

In view of the recent accident at Talerddig would the 398s have sufficient axle weight in poor rail head conditions coming down the incline with no box at Abercynon, sounding horn would be no good.

 

[WAB]

They’re due to be introduced on Pontypridd - Cardiff Bay services initially, so that fits with your hunch.

That'll be good, as cancellations due to 150 shortages are up on the bay services.0

 

[DanNCL]

In view of the recent accident at Talerddig would the 398s have sufficient axle weight in poor rail head conditions coming down the incline with no box at Abercynon, sounding horn would be no good.

Magnetic track brakes are standard on the Citylink platform, I’d be surprised if the 398s didn’t have them.