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Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently
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Railengineer
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Waste of money?
They have spent millions trying to get these clapped out old trains working when everyone else is leasing new stock. It was a fanciful idea by worst group that went badly wrong. Don't bank on too many memories of the old days being revived either. They have ripped out the best bits (snug) and squashed in a load of ironing board seats.
They have spent millions trying to get these clapped out old trains working when everyone else is leasing new stock. It was a fanciful idea by worst group that went badly wrong. Don't bank on too many memories of the old days being revived either. They have ripped out the best bits (snug) and squashed in a load of ironing board seats.
It was actually a DfT idea which Stagecoach said no to.
HamworthyGoods
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DfT were at that stage very keen to get 442s back on the network.
Certain services such as the 19:48 Waterloo to Poole have been formally withdrawn from December. It appears that by December, a few 701s in service and the subsequent cascades will allow a few 450s to move back to main line work. It just delays scrapping a few 458s a little longer.
On that basis, likely December 2021 before they are needed and that’s only if everyone returns back to work in London, which they won’t!
Put a loco on one end and use them off the juice on the Pompey - Cardiff’s!
On that basis, likely December 2021 before they are needed and that’s only if everyone returns back to work in London, which they won’t!
Put a loco on one end and use them off the juice on the Pompey - Cardiff’s!
SWRtrain_fan
Member
Agreed, whoever decided to get 442s in, it was quite a bad decision to make
Nym
Established Member
That remains to be seen, I doubt December will see them all in service.
Indeed, was a DfT led thing, First Group nor Stagecoach really wanted to use them.
Railengineer
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So the Dft was complicit and we are all paying for this shambles then?
For someone who didn't want to do it, worst group certainly pumped out the publicity (until it went wrong)!
For someone who didn't want to do it, worst group certainly pumped out the publicity (until it went wrong)!
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Is someone at the DafT part of the 442's are the second coming of Christ brigade? 
Nym
Established Member
Well they did try and lumber Transpennine Express with them as well in the bright idea that they could be made to work with a Class 67 or 68.
(They could, but it's exceedingly complex)
(They could, but it's exceedingly complex)
I don't think they really had a choice, they were forced into the 442s so they decided promoting was the best choice over not promoting them.
Trouble is when this whole charade started I think that the 442s were the only available 3rd rail units. Of course now we have the 365s, soon the 458s and possibly the 350/2s (are these able to be converted to 750v?)
MatthewRead
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They've got a future they're going to be converted to 3 cars and rewired to run over they Tyne and Wear voltage see this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hsts-replacing-voyagers-for-the-cross-country-services.209502/
LOL The Irony
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I think all UK Desiro's can be converted to 3rd rail operation, but definitely all 350's (as they were originally 450's).
Nym
Established Member
So what about all the 319s that have been and still are sat around and will work on 3rd rail off the bat...?
CBlue
Member
I've seen suggestions about using the 365's on 3rd rail before. Was it not the case that the 3rd rail kit was removed and subsequently disposed of? I am fairly sure there was a poster on here stating that - and if they are missing that capability, is it really worth the expense for such a small fleet?
Better off converting Desiros, at least there's going to be a fair few of them going spare in the next couple of years.
swt_passenger
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The whole point of the charade was to meet the apparent passenger groups insistence on 23 metre end door stock, with 2+2 seating. It was really all about their envious comparisons with the Bournemouth line, nothing to do with maximising seating capacity on the Portsmouth Direct...
So can they now convert 350s for the line and say ‘do you want working trains or comfy ones that don’t work?
Were these for new services anyway? Sure I have always been on 444s down the Portsmouth Direct, not a 450?
The 319s should be saved to be diesels (assuming they’re eventually make it work!). Replace 442s with converted 350s.
All hell would break loose if you tried to put Petersfield commuters on 319s!
swt_passenger
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The 360/2s with a 2+2 seating conversion, running as 12 car, would be fine IMHO, but they weren’t known to be available at the time First/MTR were making their bid.
Yes, they are all about having enough stock for the extra services across both main long distance routes. The Portsmouth Direct was supposed to go 4 tph end to end, plus peak extras.
The service in recent years has been a mix of 444 and 450. But a majority of peak flow direction trains are 12.450s. The plans (pre-COVID) would have had most Portsmouth fasts as 10.442, a few as 10.444, and semifasts remaining as 12.450. A couple of services on the Waterloo-Bournemouth-Poole route would still be used to rotate 442s through Bournemouth depot for certain maintenance.
Kieran1990
Member
Maybe they’ll retain the Class 458’s give them a 2+2 refit and stick them on the Pompey’s, unsure if there 75mph gearing would scuff that
swt_passenger
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75 mph, no first class, not max length at only 200m so far less capacity. IMHO no chance.
43096
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The 458s are already 2+2.
458501-530 do have first class, it's just declassified.
fgwrich
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I cant see anyone being that interested in the Juniper fleet once SWR is finished with them to be honest, they do seem rather run down and do feel tired - though it seems to be a Juniper thing as I cant say I was that impressed with their Scottish cousins last month.
If any newer units were to be brought into the franchise, I would place a strong bet on them being the 350/2s converted. Standardised fleet then, modern units virtually the same as the other 125 Desiros. It's a bit of a shame it wasn't considered from the start (with a 350/1 style interior) to be honest, much as I like the 442s / Mk3 design.
DelW
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Currently the Direct is only 2tph south of Haslemere. Because that's 1 x semifast and 1 x stopper, at most stations the gaps are somewhat uneven. One curious side effect is that Milford and Witley get an enhanced 2tph service, as both the Portsmouth stoppers and the Haslemere terminators call there.
No idea when or if 3tph will be restored let alone 4tph to need the 442s, but currently off peak loadings look quite low.
43096
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With the 458s that's down to SWR not looking after them.
theironroad
Established Member
While we don't know the exact outcome yet, let's be clear the 442 programme hasn't been terminated.
442s were pulled w/c 17/3 as WFH was imposed and covid cases were increasing. More staff were self isolating and the need for 2 drivers in passenger service meant that it was easier to withdraw the 442 and use the driver's elsewhere.
Some driver's have been maintaining their traction knowledge over the summer with units 10 & 20 being used between poole and brockenhurst.
As has been detailed on RF, the units have been going to have their AC work done at Wolverton, albeit slowly it seems as their are 18 units to I believe and someone can correct me but only 3 or so have been done.
A separate contract was awarded over the summer and work started on replacing the desk and controls in the cans.
A dispensation was granted last year so that the 442 can stay in service until August 2024 on swr metals without meeting all reduced mobility access requirements.
Sure, right now with commuting suppressed the extra capacity isnt needed but , and while I won't bet my life on it, the news of their death an burial is rather premature....
442s were pulled w/c 17/3 as WFH was imposed and covid cases were increasing. More staff were self isolating and the need for 2 drivers in passenger service meant that it was easier to withdraw the 442 and use the driver's elsewhere.
Some driver's have been maintaining their traction knowledge over the summer with units 10 & 20 being used between poole and brockenhurst.
As has been detailed on RF, the units have been going to have their AC work done at Wolverton, albeit slowly it seems as their are 18 units to I believe and someone can correct me but only 3 or so have been done.
A separate contract was awarded over the summer and work started on replacing the desk and controls in the cans.
A dispensation was granted last year so that the 442 can stay in service until August 2024 on swr metals without meeting all reduced mobility access requirements.
Sure, right now with commuting suppressed the extra capacity isnt needed but , and while I won't bet my life on it, the news of their death an burial is rather premature....
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