Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[Deepgreen]

Portsmouth to London is not, never has been and never will be, an inter city journey. I do agree though that 3+2 isn't suitable for that distance.

Portsmouth is a city, and London is a city. By definition, a journey between them is inter-city. In days of yore, there were restaurant cars (4-COR, 4RES, 4COR formations) on many workings between the two - I think that indicates the historical status of the route, so to claim that it "never has been" an inter-city route is odd.

 

[Deepgreen]

light maintenance?

Repaints
Overhauls C4/C6
Engine changes
Wheel set replacements

What "engine changes" will 442s undergo?

 

[43096]

What "engine changes" will 442s undergo?

I read it as a reference to the capability of Bournemouth depot, not specifically the 442s. Bournemouth will do engine change work on the SWR 158/159 fleet.

 

[supervc-10]

By definition, a journey between them is inter-city

Does that mean that a Northern stopper calling at Salford Central and Manchester Victoria is an intercity train?

 

[Mike Machin]

Whilst the Portsmouth Direct route is technically ‘Inter City’ in that it connects two cities, I think most people would agree that a true Inter City route today is a high-speed long-distance service. The Portsmouth line is very much closer in concept to the inter-urban routes in northern England, comparable to say a journey from Leeds to Liverpool, so the users on the Portsmouth line are very lucky indeed, in fact even the class 450s offer a significantly better travelling environment than most trains in the north.

 

[Rick1984]

too similar to 455 / 450; 444 seats are more comfortable

450 and 444 have the same seats, bar arm rests and spacing

 

[antharro]

They will keep their bogies, as did the 455s when they were retractioned. No chance of the remaining six units being taken on, they are in very poor shape even if SWR wanted to.

The refurbishment also includes making them DDA compliant so no exemption required.

Thanks, that's good to know on both counts.

450 and 444 have the same seats, bar arm rests and spacing

I think you'll find the frames are the same but the cushions are different. See 444 seats and 450 seats. Regardless, the original 442 seats were far more comfortable than what they have now!

 

[Rick1984]

Interesting I always presumed they were the same

 

[DelW]

450 and 444 have the same seats, bar arm rests and spacing

Well exactly, it is the cramped width and lack of armrests that makes the 450s less comfortable than the 444s, especially in the window seats where the floor level ducts mean you have to sit with your legs at an angle towards the middle of the coach. I don't generally suffer from back trouble, but on occasions I've been so uncomfortable on a busy 450 that I've chosen to stand instead. I've never had that on a 444, or indeed any other trains I can recall.

 

[RichSwitch]

With respect to the refurbishment, these were meant to be returned to our service in “as new condition”. There’s a good argument that could be made that this hasn’t happened. It certainly hasn’t applied to the ceilings of the trains which are in a very grubby state. I’m not saying the company need to spend billions of pounds on them; but maybe while each one is retractioned - if indeed it’s not kiboshed - surely the ceiling panels could have a lick of paint? That would make the difference between ‘almost new’ and ‘as new’. For now.

 

[TEW]

1848 Waterloo to Poole diverted via Havant this evening due to the freight train derailment at Eastleigh. Could well be the first 442 in service via Netley since their return to traffic?

 

[Tunnel Bore]

Does that mean that a Northern stopper calling at Salford Central and Manchester Victoria is an intercity train?

I know you're teasing but now I fancy and inter-city trip from Mansion House to Westminster on the District Line.

 

[theironroad]

1848 Waterloo to Poole diverted via Havant this evening due to the freight train derailment at Eastleigh. Could well be the first 442 in service via Netley since their return to traffic?

Quite possibly. Quite surprised it managed to make the whole journey. Not sure if the FTN drivers working it from Waterloo to Bournemouth would be impressed at 3.5 hrs in the seat.

 

[43066]

Portsmouth is a city, and London is a city. By definition, a journey between them is inter-city. In days of yore, there were restaurant cars (4-COR, 4RES, 4COR formations) on many workings between the two - I think that indicates the historical status of the route, so to claim that it "never has been" an inter-city route is odd.

That strikes me as a rather unhelpful definition.

The City of Westminster is a city, and so is the City of London, but I doubt many of us would describe a Central Line train connecting the two as an “InterCity” train.

On the other hand Gatwick Express (NOT a journey between two cities) was historically an “InterCity” service under BR.

A more useful definition of “InterCity” would be restricted to the services which were classified as such under BR. I don’t believe Portsmouth - London services ever ran under BR’s InterCity brand.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That strikes me as a rather unhelpful definition.

The City of Westminster is a city, and so is the City of London, but I doubt many of us would describe a Central Line train connecting the two as an “InterCity” train.

On the other hand Gatwick Express (NOT a journey between two cities) was historically an “InterCity” service under BR.

A more useful definition of “InterCity” would be restricted to the services which were classified as such under BR. I don’t believe Portsmouth - London services ever ran under BR’s InterCity brand.

I think you may be getting confused between the Intercity brand when it was launched and the Intercity Sector post sectorisation.

The attached map was BR’s take on Intercity after the launch of the brand (blue and grey Intercity as opposed to the later swallow version). Both Portsmouth and Bournemouth were on there.

It should also be noted Dover to London was on there, which in those days ways an important part of the Intercity brand as it was how Europeans arrived from the continent.

 

[43066]

This was BR’s take on Intercity after the launch of the brand (blue and grey Intercity as opposed to the later swallow version). Both Portsmouth and Bournemouth were on there.

Fair enough, I stand corrected, although I was thinking more of the post sectorisation “InterCity” brand proper (no hyphen), which came into being in the mid 80s, as opposed to the ad hoc “Inter-City” brand name which had been applied to various services for many years prior.

Interesting to note that the map above includes the Brighton Mainline, the Chatham Mainline and the Southeastern Mainline.

I believe the Cross-Country division of InterCity ran services to Brighton via the BML, and to Ramsgate via the Chathams, but never operated over the SEML as far as I know.

 

[raetiamann]

Makes for very interesting reading, particularly relating to timings back in the day, and were subsequent improvements have taken place or not as maybe the case in some instances.

 

[Thumper1127]

From my recollection there was a lot of debate at the time the InterCity sector was created as to whether Bournemouth fast services should be included.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Makes for very interesting reading, particularly relating to timings back in the day, and were subsequent improvements have taken place or not as maybe the case in some instances.

Would probably be a fairer comparison if it included frequency.

Take Portsmouth 1tph fast or something 5-10 mins slower but twice and hour etc

 

[TEW]

With no engineering works on the Portsmouth line tomorrow, it looks like the 442s are getting their first Weekend outing. Several 9Pxx headcodes appeared in the system.

 

[winks]

Hi TEW , will this be testing only or passenger services if so any details ?

 

[Kieran1990]

With no engineering works on the Portsmouth line tomorrow, it looks like the 442s are getting their first Weekend outing. Several 9Pxx headcodes appeared in the system.

shame there isn’t any on Sunday, as I’m travelling back up to Leeds Via central London from Guildford.
I have a joyous trip via Staines to look forward to instead

 

[Train Boy]

Hi TEW , will this be testing only or passenger services if so any details ?

Passenger services as per the original plan. First Saturday 01/02/2020, first Sunday 29/03/2020.

Following departures from Waterloo tomorrow:
0830 to Portsmouth Harbour
1100 to Portsmouth Harbour
1130 to Portsmouth Harbour
1300 to Portsmouth Harbour
1530 to Portsmouth Harbour
1600 to Portsmouth Harbour
1730 to Portsmouth Harbour
2005 to Poole
2030 to Portsmouth Harbour
2200 to Portsmouth Harbour

Following departures from Portsmouth Harbour tomorrow:
0845 to London Waterloo
0915 to London Waterloo
1045 to London Waterloo
1315 to London Waterloo
1345 to London Waterloo
1515 to London Waterloo
1745 to London Waterloo
1815 to London Waterloo
1945 to London Waterloo

Following departures from Poole tomorrow:
0526 to London Waterloo

 

[Mikey C]

Fair enough, I stand corrected, although I was thinking more of the post sectorisation “InterCity” brand proper (no hyphen), which came into being in the mid 80s, as opposed to the ad hoc “Inter-City” brand name which had been applied to various services for many years prior.

Interesting to note that the map above includes the Brighton Mainline, the Chatham Mainline and the Southeastern Mainline.

I believe the Cross-Country division of InterCity ran services to Brighton via the BML, and to Ramsgate via the Chathams, but never operated over the SEML as far as I know.

And Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn!

 

[43066]

And Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn!

Ah yes.

Didn’t that end up as part of NSE?

 

[3141]

Basingstoke to Exeter is also interesting.

 

[BRX]

To me the definition of an intercity service is (1) stops only at principal stations and (2) offers level of comfort and facilities appropriate for long journeys (over about 2 hours).

 

[bramling]

Ah yes.

Didn’t that end up as part of NSE?

Yes, and not long after it wound up with commuter EMUs - although it didn’t take too long before they got what were then relatively high-spec commuter EMUs in the form of the class 365, which at the time were fully carpeted.

 

[paul1609]

I think you may be getting confused between the Intercity brand when it was launched and the Intercity Sector post sectorisation.

The attached map was BR’s take on Intercity after the launch of the brand (blue and grey Intercity as opposed to the later swallow version). Both Portsmouth and Bournemouth were on there.

It should also be noted Dover to London was on there, which in those days ways an important part of the Intercity brand as it was how Europeans arrived from the continent.

Ironically the Dover service (from St Pancras) is now one of the UK premier services. I prefer the 395s to either 800s or Pendalinos.
Operationally HS1 puts all the "Intercity" operations to shame with DOO and self despatch a 12 car train often seems to complete a station stop in about the same time as it takes to get a door release on northern. The 111 mph stop to start for the fast Stratford to Ashford services in the peak puts anything "intercity" firmly on the slow lines.

 

[class387]

Passenger services as per the original plan. First Saturday 01/02/2020, first Sunday 29/03/2020.

Following departures from Waterloo tomorrow:
0830 to Portsmouth Harbour
1100 to Portsmouth Harbour
1130 to Portsmouth Harbour
1300 to Portsmouth Harbour
1530 to Portsmouth Harbour
1600 to Portsmouth Harbour
1730 to Portsmouth Harbour
2005 to Poole
2030 to Portsmouth Harbour
2200 to Portsmouth Harbour

Following departures from Portsmouth Harbour tomorrow:
0845 to London Waterloo
0915 to London Waterloo
1045 to London Waterloo
1315 to London Waterloo
1345 to London Waterloo
1515 to London Waterloo
1745 to London Waterloo
1815 to London Waterloo
1945 to London Waterloo

Following departures from Poole tomorrow:
0526 to London Waterloo

Some of these schedules appear to have been replaced with the normal 1Pxx headcode - do you know whether these are still running with 442s?