Class 465/466 return to the Victoria - Ashford services

[Islineclear3_1]

What's an SRT ?

 

[ComUtoR]

Sectional Running Time (post #21)

 

[4BEP]

Basically yes. Kemsing, Barming, Hollingbourne, Harrietsham and Charing are all 6-car maximum without SDO. In theory an 8-car 465 set could use the line if on the semi-fast calling pattern, so I'd have thought an 8-car could be allocated to any of the MDE-CHX diagrams in the December timetable change, but I don't know what will be allocated where from December on that line, only that 375/377s will probably still form a large majority of diagrams.

My thinking is that the AFK - VIC are more likely to be 465/466 after the December change, given the all stations Ashford to Maidstone service and the stopping pattern beyond Maidstone. Then again given the reductions on AFK services on the Mid Kent line and other services via the Medway Towns will the 11 377/5s left on Southeastern be able to cover VIC and CHX services to/from MDE.

 

[Class 466]

My thinking is that the AFK - VIC are more likely to be 465/466 after the December change, given the all stations Ashford to Maidstone service and the stopping pattern beyond Maidstone. Then again given the reductions on AFK services on the Mid Kent line and other services via the Medway Towns will the 11 377/5s left on Southeastern be able to cover VIC and CHX services to/from MDE.

No more likely than the current TT. Its one diagram that's only out in the peaks, the rest are 375/377

 

[dodecahedron67]

Don’t know if here’s the place to put it, but 2x 466s are on 5Q88 Doncaster Works - Tonbridge Yard tonight. No clue what unit numbers as pitch black outside

 

[brad465]

Don’t know if here’s the place to put it, but 2x 466s are on 5Q88 Doncaster Works - Tonbridge Yard tonight. No clue what unit numbers as pitch black outside

Could be 466001 and 033, which were seen going to Doncaster around a fortnight ago?

EDIT: If it's going to Tonbridge West Yard it can't be any passenger stock, as that's a freight yard.

 

[Watershed]

Are SRTs publicly available ?

Not really. There's an internal industry database called BPlan which has the full list, and data from this is extracted for use in planning systems. Bear in mind that there isn't always an SRT for every combination of pass/stop / pass/stop / start/pass / start/stop, nor between every timing point on the routes that a particular type of stock is cleared over.

You can deduce many of the SRTs from the schedule data released by Network Rail, but there will sometimes be adjustment allowances in there, which aren't published (unlike pathing, performance and engineering allowances, which are separately indicated).

I suppose you could make a Freedom of Information request to NR - though they may refuse on the basis of commercial confidentiality or somesuch nonsense.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Could be 466001 and 033, which were seen going to Doncaster around a fortnight ago?

EDIT: If it's going to Tonbridge West Yard it can't be any passenger stock, as that's a freight yard.

Trust me, 2x66 double heading, 2 barrier wagons, 2x466, barrier wagon was the consist

 

[Class 466]

Could be 466001 and 033, which were seen going to Doncaster around a fortnight ago?

EDIT: If it's going to Tonbridge West Yard it can't be any passenger stock, as that's a freight yard.

They always stable overnight in Tonbridge West Yard before going to Slade Green the next day.

 

[greaterangrier]

Not really. There's an internal industry database called BPlan which has the full list, and data from this is extracted for use in planning systems. Bear in mind that there isn't always an SRT for every combination of pass/stop / pass/stop / start/pass / start/stop, nor between every timing point on the routes that a particular type of stock is cleared over.

BPLAN Geography - Open Rail Data Wiki

wiki.openraildata.com

Updated biannually and listed under the TLKs

 

[Watershed]

BPLAN Geography - Open Rail Data Wiki

wiki.openraildata.com

Updated biannually and listed under the TLKs

That doesn't include updates between timetable periods though.

 

[brad465]

Apparently another 6 car set is diagrammed on this route on a short term basis that includes the afternoon Blackfriars' workings?

 

[Edsmith]

Apparently another 6 car set is diagrammed on this route on a short term basis that includes the afternoon Blackfriars' workings?

Yes todays 17.39 Blackfriars to Ashford was 465/6.

Will there be any after the December timetable change?

 

[Class 466]

Yes todays 17.39 Blackfriars to Ashford was 465/6.

Will there be any after the December timetable change?

Yep. Monday to Friday only however:
5A06 04+30 Ashford Down Sidings to Ashford
2A06 0505 Ashford to Victoria
2N12 0655 Victoria to Ashford
2A22 0855 Ashford to Victoria
5A22 10+47 Victoria to Victoria Sidings
5N46 14+55 Victoria Sidings to Victoria
2N46 1525 Victoria to Ashford
2A57 1727 Ashford to Victoria
2N62 1925 Victoria to Ashford
2A72 2127 Ashford to Victoria
2N78 2325 Victoria to Ashford
5N78 01+10 Ashford to Ashford Down Sidings

 

[brad465]

Just saw a 6 car Networker formation shoot through St Mary Cray on what must be the 19:13 MDE-CHX, which is odd as I don't recall these diagrams having any scheduled 465/466s on them. Is this a one off or a new allocation?

 

[Stephen42]

Just saw a 6 car Networker formation shoot through St Mary Cray on what must be the 19:13 MDE-CHX, which is odd as I don't recall these diagrams having any scheduled 465/466s on them. Is this a one off or a new allocation?

Are you sure it was 6 car? The live running info has it as an 8 car 465 466 466 formation there were a few short forms earlier so suspect it's likely to be a one off.

 

[brad465]

Are you sure it was 6 car? The live running info has it as an 8 car 465 466 466 formation there were a few short forms earlier so suspect it's likely to be a one off.

I can double check when presumably it comes back into Maidstone East soon around 21:30. I don't have access to whatever live running info you're using, and it shot through non-stop while I was on the 19:25 from VIC-AFK (which also happened to be a Networker formation, but this is normal at the moment).

 

[Stephen42]

I can double check when presumably it comes back into Maidstone East soon around 21:30. I don't have access to whatever live running info you're using, and it shot through non-stop while I was on the 19:25 from VIC-AFK (which also happened to be a Networker formation, but this is normal at the moment).

The live running information is from Darwin which might be incorrect as 8-car seems very unusual. The feed data (which isn't shown on most websites) has it with 2 standard and 1 accessible toilet which doesn't fit with any electrostar formation I can think of.

 

[brad465]

The live running information is from Darwin which might be incorrect as 8-car seems very unusual. The feed data (which isn't shown on most websites) has it with 2 standard and 1 accessible toilet which doesn't fit with any electrostar formation I can think of.

I can confirm it was 465020 + 466012, so only 6-car. Interestingly the departure board reckoned the 22:13 to CHX would be an 8-car, even though only 6 are there, so that would presumably fit it being a last-minute swap.

 

[Stephen42]

I can confirm it was 465020 + 466012, so only 6-car. Interestingly the departure board reckoned the 22:13 to CHX would be an 8-car, even though only 6 are there, so that would presumably fit it being a last-minute swap.

The Darwin data should be the same as the length displayed at the station (though as shown here doesn't mean it's right). It definitely looks like it's been reallocated, the 23:31 to Maidstone it goes on to form has 8 car length with an impossible 16 car formation half electrostar, half networker which suggests one got changed for the other and some system somewhere has got confused.

 

[brad465]

The Darwin data should be the same as the length displayed at the station (though as shown here doesn't mean it's right). It definitely looks like it's been reallocated, the 23:31 to Maidstone it goes on to form has 8 car length with an impossible 16 car formation half electrostar, half networker which suggests one got changed for the other and some system somewhere has got confused.

I wonder if it's because late night engineering work is taking place between Ashford and Maidstone this week, meaning trains after 23:30 have to terminate in the bay platform, then to get to Ashford Down Sidings go the long way round, by running to Swanley, reversing, then through to Ashford via Otford, Sevenoaks and Tonbridge.

 

[Timmyd]

A question on this - now that there is no more First Class anywhere on SE, is any effort made to put 465/9s on these services or could it just be any old 465? It looks like the latter from observations this week (and conversely I’ve seen more /9s on the Orpington stoppers) but would be curious if this is just chance or is how things will be from now on. Would seem fair to try to keep the /9s on these longer journeys as the ambience is so much better

 

[Jturner98]

A question on this - now that there is no more First Class anywhere on SE, is any effort made to put 465/9s on these services or could it just be any old 465? It looks like the latter from observations this week (and conversely I’ve seen more /9s on the Orpington stoppers) but would be curious if this is just chance or is how things will be from now on. Would seem fair to try to keep the /9s on these longer journeys as the ambience is so much better

Don’t know but from what I’ve seen it looks like any 465 will turn up. I’ve been travelling on the Charing Cross - Tunbridge Wells service recently and a lot of BRELs have turned up. So potentially they are just picking the units out of the general pool now.

 

[Stephen42]

A question on this - now that there is no more First Class anywhere on SE, is any effort made to put 465/9s on these services or could it just be any old 465? It looks like the latter from observations this week (and conversely I’ve seen more /9s on the Orpington stoppers) but would be curious if this is just chance or is how things will be from now on. Would seem fair to try to keep the /9s on these longer journeys as the ambience is so much better

The 465/9s and other 465s are in two separate pools diagram wise. They can substitute for each other if required but there are intended formations. There has been a shift now there's no more first class to moving more 465/9 onto metro diagrams with most mainline services having just one 465/9. Metro diagrams have lower mileage in general which is probably the reason for the change.

 

[4BEP]

I see that a number of VIC-AFK services are now 4-cars, are these Networkers or Electrostars, or both?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I see that a number of VIC-AFK services are now 4-cars, are these Networkers or Electrostars, or both?

Mark 1 eyeballs show a fair few instances of 4/377 but not normally 4/375 passing Bearsted of a cross section of times during the day, all days a week.

Very few instances of 375s, mostly 8/377s, some 465/466 combos. Have never made an effort to try to work out which services are what.

That said, no idea now of course what they use on the Maidstone to Charing Cross trains. I assume it’s only 375s?

 

[jnjkerbin]

That said, no idea now of course what they use on the Maidstone to Charing Cross trains. I assume it’s only 375s?

The Maidstone - Charing Xs seem to be entirely 8/377 from what I've seen.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The Maidstone - Charing Xs seem to be entirely 8/377 from what I've seen.

That surprises me, mostly on the basis that if they need to be taken by a spare man / woman to Grove Park or whatever to be got out of the way, I don't think Charing Cross / Grove Park / Slade Green / Dartford / Orpington (etc) sign for them, so could make it all a bit tricky. I'd have thought they'd have made a conscious effort to use 375s on them, and use the 377s only on stuff between Victoria and Ashford.

As an aside, do Gillingham depot still sign for 377s?

 

[Class 466]

That surprises me, mostly on the basis that if they need to be taken by a spare man / woman to Grove Park or whatever to be got out of the way, I don't think Charing Cross / Grove Park / Slade Green / Dartford / Orpington (etc) sign for them, so could make it all a bit tricky. I'd have thought they'd have made a conscious effort to use 375s on them, and use the 377s only on stuff between Victoria and Ashford.

As an aside, do Gillingham depot still sign for 377s?

Seen as 377s work Victoria to Gillingham stoppers - I would assume they sign them!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Seen as 377s work Victoria to Gillingham stoppers - I would assume they sign them!

I remember Gillingham signing for them in the days of the FCC/SE joint Bedford to Rochester and Ashford services, but assumed they only really used them to Ashford now.

On that basis alone, the fact the 377s aren’t centred on just Gillingham slow and Ashford to Victoria work seems odd to me.