Class 50s and Warships photographed together in the 1960's and early 70's?

[crosscity]

I took a photo in 1973 (corrected) with a Class 50 and a Warship (almost) together.
I'm trying to find any other occasions when a 50 and a Warship were in close proximity in BR days, preferably with both in service with a photo to prove it.
It seems like the quest for the Holy Grail!

D400 arrived at Bristol around 21Oct72. Between then and 16Dec72 the last ten Warships were withdrawn. It would be interesting to know whether any actually hauled any trains in those 7 or 8 weeks and similarly did D400? The relevant Warships were 805/6, 810/2/4/8, 820/1/4 and 832.

From introduction in1968 the 400-ers were maintained at Crewe and mainly operated from there northwards. The Warships were maintained in the South-West and the chances of seeing one with a 50 were pretty small, but perhaps not zero. In my spotting days from 68-74 I never saw any hydraulic north of Oxford and I went to Crewe quite a few times.

Can anyone help me in my quest?

17Feb73. Merrymaker trip. Bristol Bath Road. D7097 D824 HIGHFLYER D400. [Slide_0112] by Ray Honke, on Flickr

 

[Grumpy]

On the RMWeb site (rmweb.co.uk) there is a thread “how far north did Warships or Westerns go?”. This has a photo of a Warship (D834) and 50 together on Crewe North stabling point. There are other references to Warship workings to Crewe in the 1970s.
With regard to not seeing hydraulics north of Oxford between 68-74 there were certainly several workings a day from Paddington to New St via Oxford in the early 1970s. I used to see these from the office canteen window.

 

[Ash Bridge]

That is most surely a pretty rare shot you managed there @crosscity! I was at Bristol Temple Meads on a similar Merrymaker day trip from Manchester late November 1972 and observed and photographed 832 on shed at Bath Road. It remained there throughout the time we were there (most of the afternoon) it’s engine(s) were definitely idling continuously but whether it was booked to work anything later in the day after our departure I don’t suppose we’ll ever get to know?

I have definitely seen a hydraulic at Crewe; that was on my first ever visit back in 1969, the loco in question being blue livered D851 Temeraire which didn’t look long out the paint shop. It arrived during the afternoon on a parcels train, I also have a b/w shot that I’m currently unable to locate of this somewhere.

 

[Harvester]

A hydraulic made it to Leeds on a BR service train. D1013 in January 1977!

 

[Magdalia]

It seems like the quest for the Holy Grail!

I like a research holy grail and this is a good one!

D400 arrived at Bristol around 21Oct72. Between then and 16Dec72 the last ten Warships were withdrawn. It would be interesting to know whether any actually hauled any trains in those 7 or 8 weeks and similarly did D400? The relevant Warships were 805/6, 810/2/4/8, 820/1/4 and 832.

In November 1972 only 4 Warships were reported to be still active, these being 810, 812, 821 and 824.

400 was of limited use when it first arrived on the Western Region, almost nobody knew how to drive it and it couldn't do steam heat. In the early days it was only used on trips from/to Bristol for crew training and testing of new Mark IIE aircon stock. That had definitely started before Christmas 1972.

But there seems to be a tantalising small gap, possibly less than a month, between the last Warship workings and the first workings of 400 on crew training or test trains.

On the RMWeb site (rmweb.co.uk) there is a thread “how far north did Warships or Westerns go?”. This has a photo of a Warship and 50 together on Crewe North stabling point. There are other references to Warship workings to Crewe in the 1970s.

I think Crewe when the class 50s were new is probably a better bet.

 

[Rescars]

On the RMWeb site (rmweb.co.uk) there is a thread “how far north did Warships or Westerns go?”. This has a photo of a Warship and 50 together on Crewe North stabling point. There are other references to Warship workings to Crewe in the 1970s.
With regard to not seeing hydraulics north of Oxford between 68-74 there were certainly several workings a day from Paddington to New St via Oxford in the early 1970s. I used to see these from the office canteen window.

Straying slightly off topic, but Warships and Hymeks regularly worked over the Cotswold line via Oxford to Worcester and Hereford.

 

[Taunton]

Warships were standard at Crewe from around 1962, arriving on expresses via Hereford, and although these turns later passed mostly to Class 47, they carried on with some workings, the crews from Shrewsbury maintained knowledge on them. The Warships worked right through from Bristol and beyond, and given their rather limited fuel capacity would always have to go onto Crewe diesel depot to refuel before returning. I've seen multiple references to them turning up there on parcels trains, so those were probably longstanding workings. It was only 6 years from these first trips until the Class 50 arrived.

 

[randyrippley]

I'm sure I've read the 43s were booked for Cardiff-Crewe runs in the 1960s, presumably replacing the Swindon InterCity DMUs that went to Scotland?

 

[Magdalia]

I'm sure I've read the 43s were booked for Cardiff-Crewe runs in the 1960s, presumably replacing the Swindon InterCity DMUs that went to Scotland?

In 1965 the route via Hereford and Shrewsbury was the preserve of long distance loco hauled SW/NW trains. In each direction there were 3 Cardiff-Manchesters, 2 Plymouth-Manchesters and a Plymouth-Liverpool. One of the northbound Plymouth-Manchesters started from Penzance but there was no corresponding southbound working to Penzance.

Warships to Crewe would have been on the Plymouth/Penzance trains.

I'm not aware of DMUs working end to end on this route until after the longer distance trains were diverted to run via Birmingham.

 

[robert thomas]

In 1965 the route via Hereford and Shrewsbury was the preserve of long distance loco hauled SW/NW trains. In each direction there were 3 Cardiff-Manchesters, 2 Plymouth-Manchesters and a Plymouth-Liverpool. One of the northbound Plymouth-Manchesters started from Penzance but there was no corresponding southbound working to Penzance.

Warships to Crewe would have been on the Plymouth/Penzance trains.

I'm not aware of DMUs working end to end on this route until after the longer distance trains were diverted to run via Birmingham.

I was at Manchester University from September 1965 to June 1968 and travelled regularly up the North & West line during that period always behind 47s. From memory I never saw a Warship on the route after the end of 1964/early 1965.I believe the warships may have finished when the trains started reversing at Newport rather than going round the east curve at Maindy.

 

[crosscity]

On the RMWeb site (rmweb.co.uk) there is a thread “how far north did Warships or Westerns go?”. This has a photo of a Warship and 50 together on Crewe North stabling point. There are other references to Warship workings to Crewe in the 1970s.
With regard to not seeing hydraulics north of Oxford between 68-74 there were certainly several workings a day from Paddington to New St via Oxford in the early 1970s. I used to see these from the office canteen window.

Thanks for the heads-up. I've had a look, and, yes, there is a photo of a Fifty and a Warship at Crewe. I'd like to share it here, but I need to get permission first.

That is most surely a pretty rare shot you managed there @crosscity! I was at Bristol Temple Meads on a similar Merrymaker day trip from Manchester late November 1972 and observed and photographed 832 on shed at Bath Road. It remained there throughout the time we were there (most of the afternoon) it’s engine(s) were definitely idling continuously but whether it was booked to work anything later in the day after our departure I don’t suppose we’ll ever get to know?

I have definitely seen a hydraulic at Crewe; that was on my first ever visit back in 1969, the loco in question being blue livered D851 Temeraire which didn’t look long out the paint shop. It arrived during the afternoon on a parcels train, I also have a b/w shot that I’m currently unable to locate of this somewhere.

Being from West Yorkshire I yearned to see a WR hydraulic, but spending money had to cover train fares and film, so frequent visits to the WR were out of the question. Between 1969 and 1971 I managed to get to Crewe two or three times per year. I was so desperate I went to Birmingham twice with a cheap fare from Manchester which allowed return travel on the very slow 310-emu all-stations via Stoke. I think I was just unlucky not to see a hydraulic on any of these trips. Eventually I saved up my pennies and went to London for the day in Aug71 - it was straight round to Old Oak to see my first Western, Warship and Hymek around the turntable.

After that 'Merrymakers' were my saviour. Long rides for very little money in Mark I's was just heaven! Did you see 400 on the day you saw 832?

I was at Bristol on one in Oct 72 which was probably just before 400 arrived. 806 did a sort of 'party-piece' and came off Bath Road to by the station, then went back to the shed. Fortunately I managed to get a photo of it alongside the 1100-er Brush 4 that had hauled my 'Merrymaker' from home.

I like a research holy grail and this is a good one!


In November 1972 only 4 Warships were reported to be still active, these being 810, 812, 821 and 824.

400 was of limited use when it first arrived on the Western Region, almost nobody knew how to drive it and it couldn't do steam heat. In the early days it was only used on trips from/to Bristol for crew training and testing of new Mark IIE aircon stock. That had definitely started before Christmas 1972.

But there seems to be a tantalising small gap, possibly less than a month, between the last Warship workings and the first workings of 400 on crew training or test trains.


I think Crewe when the class 50s were new is probably a better bet.

I still live in hope that someone else managed to get a shot.

Thanks to everyone for their replies. It's only since I scanned my slides that I realised I had a photo (albeit not a great one) of something quite rare. I probably took the shot because it was a bit of an oddity - I'd never seen a fifty south of Crewe before.

 

[neilmc]

I noticed on a RMWEb thread that Warship D861 arrived at Crewe with a Motorrail working as late as 30/07/71 - it will surely have rubbed sidebars with one or two D400s at the time.

There were a small number of Warships actually allocated on the LMR at Bescot in 1968, we went on a Birmingham bashing trip and passed one of them near Bescot, plus a Hymek and a Western at Washwood Heath on the return to Leeds, which made us happy - maybe one of this small group would end up at Crewe alongside new D400s.

 

[Gloster]

There were a small number of Warships actually allocated on the LMR at Bescot in 1968, we went on a Birmingham bashing trip and passed one of them near Bescot, plus a Hymek and a Western at Washwood Heath on the return to Leeds, which made us happy - maybe one of this small group would end up at Crewe alongside new D400s.

The Warships were never allocated off the WR, though three or four were loaned to a handful of LMR depots in the Birmingham area (plus Banbury) for training in mid-1967. This suggests that after that they could become more common on workings into the area and visit locations that they wouldn’t normally have reached previously.

 

[6Gman]

Having spent many hours on Crewe station between 1966 and ... well, today (!) I have to say that Warships were definitely rare in the key 1967-72 overlap.

 

[crosscity]

Thanks for the heads-up. I've had a look, and, yes, there is a photo of a Fifty and a Warship at Crewe. I'd like to share it here, but I need to get permission first.


Being from West Yorkshire I yearned to see a WR hydraulic, but spending money had to cover train fares and film, so frequent visits to the WR were out of the question. Between 1969 and 1971 I managed to get to Crewe two or three times per year. I was so desperate I went to Birmingham twice with a cheap fare from Manchester which allowed return travel on the very slow 310-emu all-stations via Stoke. I think I was just unlucky not to see a hydraulic on any of these trips. Eventually I saved up my pennies and went to London for the day in Aug71 - it was straight round to Old Oak to see my first Western, Warship and Hymek around the turntable.

After that 'Merrymakers' were my saviour. Long rides for very little money in Mark I's was just heaven! Did you see 400 on the day you saw 832?

I was at Bristol on one in Oct 72 which was probably just before 400 arrived. 806 did a sort of 'party-piece' and came off Bath Road to by the station, then went back to the shed. Fortunately I managed to get a photo of it alongside the 1100-er Brush 4 that had hauled my 'Merrymaker' from home.

I still live in hope that someone else managed to get a shot.

Thanks to everyone for their replies. It's only since I scanned my slides that I realised I had a photo (albeit not a great one) of something quite rare. I probably took the shot because it was a bit of an oddity - I'd never seen a fifty south of Crewe before.

This a link to the post on RMWeb

How far north did Warships or Westerns ever get?

www.rmweb.co.uk

 

[Ash Bridge]

Thanks for the heads-up. I've had a look, and, yes, there is a photo of a Fifty and a Warship at Crewe. I'd like to share it here, but I need to get permission first.


Being from West Yorkshire I yearned to see a WR hydraulic, but spending money had to cover train fares and film, so frequent visits to the WR were out of the question. Between 1969 and 1971 I managed to get to Crewe two or three times per year. I was so desperate I went to Birmingham twice with a cheap fare from Manchester which allowed return travel on the very slow 310-emu all-stations via Stoke. I think I was just unlucky not to see a hydraulic on any of these trips. Eventually I saved up my pennies and went to London for the day in Aug71 - it was straight round to Old Oak to see my first Western, Warship and Hymek around the turntable.

After that 'Merrymakers' were my saviour. Long rides for very little money in Mark I's was just heaven! Did you see 400 on the day you saw 832?

I was at Bristol on one in Oct 72 which was probably just before 400 arrived. 806 did a sort of 'party-piece' and came off Bath Road to by the station, then went back to the shed. Fortunately I managed to get a photo of it alongside the 1100-er Brush 4 that had hauled my 'Merrymaker' from home.

I still live in hope that someone else managed to get a shot.

Thanks to everyone for their replies. It's only since I scanned my slides that I realised I had a photo (albeit not a great one) of something quite rare. I probably took the shot because it was a bit of an oddity - I'd never seen a fifty south of Crewe before.

A quick update of my post above.

Managed to locate my notes from this trip and memory had let me down unfortunately as the date of this Merrymaker trip was actually 7th October 1972 hauled by D73 from Birmingham NS throughout to Weston SM, we tripped back to Bristol on the first available service which also just happened to be Peak hauled. No mention of seeing 400 on that day (like yourself I’d never have forgotten if so!) notes clearly state that 832 was stood with engines idling so at least memory good on that one. On returning to Bristol during May 1973, 824 Highflyer in your photo was by then languishing at St Phillips Marsh along with a Met Cam WR Pullman Set and a solitary Hymek, the hydraulics likely awating ther final journey to Swindon for dismantling.

 

[L+Y]

I hope this isn't too far off topic to ask: how many 50s aside from 400 ran on the WR before TOPS renumbering? I think I've seen at least one photo of a non-400 loco: possibly D413?

 

[Gloster]

I hope this isn't too far off topic to ask: how many 50s aside from 400 ran on the WR before TOPS renumbering? I think I've seen at least one photo of a non-400 loco: possibly D413?

D400, 401, 402, 404, 405, 411 and 413; 404, 411 and 413 would have been very brief.

Source: Shed by Shed, Part Seven (Walmsley, 2011). If you want to crosscheck, I suggest .brdatabase.info .

 

[crosscity]

A quick update of my post above.

Managed to locate my notes from this trip and memory had let me down unfortunately as the date of this Merrymaker trip was actually 7th October 1972 hauled by D73 from Birmingham NS throughout to Weston SM, we tripped back to Bristol on the first available service which also just happened to be Peak hauled. No mention of seeing 400 on that day (like yourself I’d never have forgotten if so!) notes clearly state that 832 was stood with engines idling so at least memory good on that one. On returning to Bristol during May 1973, 824 Highflyer in your photo was by then languishing at St Phillips Marsh along with a Met Cam WR Pullman Set and a solitary Hymek, the hydraulics likely awating ther final journey to Swindon for dismantling.

You were there exactly one week before me. I don't think 400 was transferred to the WR until after both our October trips. My trip was the last time I saw (and heard) a Warship still in service.

 

[Gloster]

You were there exactly one week before me. I don't think 400 was transferred to the WR until after both our October trips. My trip was the last time I saw (and heard) a Warship still in service.

D400 was transferred to Bath Road in the week ending 21-10-1972, according to .brdatabase.info . This tallies with Walmsley.

 

[Ash Bridge]

You were there exactly one week before me. I don't think 400 was transferred to the WR until after both our October trips. My trip was the last time I saw (and heard) a Warship still in service.

Exactly the same here; I had just one chance to travel behind one (805 from Plymouth- Penzance) earlier the same year but never took it, and in all the years since still haven’t yet managed a run on a heritage line with one!

 

[Ashley Hill]

Did WR hydraulics ever work through from Paddington to Birkenhead?

 

[Harvester]

Did WR hydraulics ever work through from Paddington to Birkenhead?

Probably only as far as Chester! In their early years 1962/3 the Westerns worked Paddington-Shrewsbury-Chester on the Birkenhead trains, before the arrival of Brush Type 4s on the WR.

 

[Taunton]

Did WR hydraulics ever work through from Paddington to Birkenhead?

Don't think so. But Westerns arrived sometimes (not often but it was a chance) in their earlier times at Chester (where the trains then reversed and a local tank loco came on), on the Paddington to Birkenhead trains. They were generally replaced by Class 47 on the diesel turns after a few years, but a mix continued, and in fact the most common power north of Shrewsbury until the through trains were given up in early 1967 still seemed to be a Black 5.

I did take this service on its last day, Birkenhead to Chester and back, somewhat unwittingly, as we were going to Chester to see the Castle-hauled specials arrive there, and it was only later I clicked in to it being the last day of steam into Birkenhead, and of the through trains.

 

[exbrel]

i hope of use, i traveled to work along the Crewe - Chester line in 1960-70's, and always looked for the warship on Crewe north, used to pass it approx. 0730ish...

 

[6Gman]

Probably only as far as Chester! In their early years 1962/3 the Westerns worked Paddington-Shrewsbury-Chester on the Birkenhead trains, before the arrival of Brush Type 4s on the WR.

The Shedbash UK website lists sightings on shed visits as follows:

Nothing at Chester; at Shrewsbury Sep 1962 1x42, May 1963 1x42, 1x52, March 1964 1x42, 1x47, July 1965 2x47, February 1966 no main line diesels on shed, March 1967 8x24, 1x40, 7x47 - and no active steam locos.

At Oxley March 1963 6x52, May 1964 4x47.

Which suggests to me that the Westerns probably came off at Wolverhampton Low Level (as happened in steam days) to be replaced by steam? And that the Western era was brief.

(Bear in mind for the Shrewsbury sightings that these may well have come up via Hereford)

 

[Taunton]

The Paddington diesels, Western or Class 47, did mostly come off at Wolverhampton, along with several coaches of the train (if I recall correctly, at the London end, so detached and left behind on Down services, or attached with the new loco on Up services), and in the final years handed over to Black 5s, but some services did this at Shrewsbury instead, and a few ran through with diesels to Chester. The ones I recall doing so were in the evening for Down trains.

Here's a Flickr picture of a Western leaving Chester in May 1963 for Paddington, which says the photographer also saw another there that day. Someone can look up what time 1V11 left there:

Western at Chester

May 5th, 1963 Chester Departing from Chester for Paddington is Western diesel hydraulic D1018 Western Buccaneer in maroon livery. Also seen here that day but not photographed D1035 Western Yeoman, in green livery Re-scanned Oct 2021

www.flickr.com

 

[Harvester]

The Shedbash UK website lists sightings on shed visits as follows:

Nothing at Chester; at Shrewsbury Sep 1962 1x42, May 1963 1x42, 1x52, March 1964 1x42, 1x47, July 1965 2x47, February 1966 no main line diesels on shed, March 1967 8x24, 1x40, 7x47 - and no active steam locos.

At Oxley March 1963 6x52, May 1964 4x47.

Which suggests to me that the Westerns probably came off at Wolverhampton Low Level (as happened in steam days) to be replaced by steam? And that the Western era was brief.

(Bear in mind for the Shrewsbury sightings that these may well have come up via Hereford)

The ‘Westerns‘ worked regularly through to Chester on Paddington-Birkenhead trains during the winter 1962/63 timetable. Reports in Modern Railways state that a ’Western‘ was based at Shrewsbury during the 1962 summer for crew training over the Shrewsbury-Chester section. The Birkenhead trains would have been steam hauled onwards from Chester after reversal, but the ‘Western’ reign was short lived with 47s taking over by 1964!

 

[6Gman]

The ‘Westerns‘ worked regularly through to Chester on Paddington-Birkenhead trains during the winter 1962/63 timetable. Reports in Modern Railways state that a ’Western‘ was based at Shrewsbury during the 1962 summer for crew training over the Shrewsbury-Chester section. The Birkenhead trains would have been steam hauled onwards from Chester after reversal, but the ‘Western’ reign was short lived with 47s taking over by 1964!

Every day is a school day on here! Thanks for those two informative replies.

 

[Magdalia]

The Westerns replaced the Kings on the Paddington-Birmingham service from the start of the winter 1962 timetable. Most of the route was transferred from the WR to the LMR from the start of the winter 1963 timetable, and the Westerns were quickly replaced by Brush Type 4s, including some based at Oxley.

D1002 was on display at Snow Hill in April 1962 and D1004 was based at Wolverhampton Stafford Road for crew training during the summer of 1962, when its duties included a trip to Chester and back.

To get us back on topic, crew training was also taking place with Warships at about the same time, using the locomotive that came into Shrewsbury on the Plymouth-Liverpool. In summer 1962 this worked the evening Cardiff-Manchester train from Shrewsbury to Crewe, returning on the mail from York, before going back south on the next day's Liverpool-Plymouth.