Class 66 locomotive horn question.

[yh00157]

hello. I am a railroad fanatic living in Korea.

While studying mechanics in high school and junior college, I also watch railroad cars.

I am writing to ask questions.

I want to know about the horn sound of the Class 66 locomotive.

I confirmed that they were manufactured from 1998 to 2008 and 2014 to 2015, but were not introduced due to diesel engine emission regulations.

I was watching a YouTube video and wanted to know the horn sound, but the horn sound is different for locomotives manufactured from 2007.

I want to know why the horn sound changed.

For reference, I checked on YouTube that the horn sound of locomotives 66301 to 66305 was the same as that of DB Cargo UK when they were first manufactured. After being transferred to another railway operator, the horn sound was changed to the same sound as the horn of the locomotive introduced in 2007.

When it was in operation on the Fastline, it was the same horn sound as the locomotives manufactured between 1998 and 2006. After the transition to DRS, it was changed to the same horn sound as the locomotives manufactured between 2007 and 2008 and between 2014 and 2015.

The point of my question is not the horn sound of the Class 66 locomotive for mainland Europe, but the horn sound of the British mainland.

Translated from Korean to English with Google Translate. There may be grammar mistakes, so please forgive me.

Fastline Class 66 Number 66304 Passing Swindon Working A Coal Train With A 2 Tone

Fastline Class 66 Number 66304 Passing Swindon Working A Coal Train With A 2 Tone

www.youtube.com

 

[Rail Quest]

The point of my question is not the horn sound of the Class 66 locomotive for mainland Europe, but the horn sound of the British mainland.

It's worth pointing out that some class 66s built for mainland Europe have since been imported into the UK yet still feature the European horn variant so there's actually three main UK Class 66 horns variants. (The locos in question operate with GBRf, example locos are 66790-66799, though there are others with GBRf with that variant)

Not sure why the horns for the locomotives specifically built for the UK were changed (I'd guess it might have something to do with how loud the original class 66 horn is - even to this day they make me jump!)

 

[randyrippley]

Weren't there complaints from drivers about the volume of the original design?

 

[CDM Transport]

I was told GBRfs were changed due to 'noise pollution'

 

[yh00157]

It's worth pointing out that some class 66s built for mainland Europe have since been imported into the UK yet still feature the European horn variant so there's actually three main UK Class 66 horns variants. (The locos in question operate with GBRf, example locos are 66790-66799, though there are others with GBRf with that variant)

Not sure why the horns for the locomotives specifically built for the UK were changed (I'd guess it might have something to do with how loud the original class 66 horn is - even to this day they make me jump!)

66734, 66750, 66751, 66793-66799, 66306-66316 are confirmed to be horns for mainland Europe.

66747-66749, 66790-66792 are confirmed to have been replaced from mainland Europe horns to mainland UK horns.

 

[yh00157]

I was told GBRfs were changed due to 'noise pollution'

Are Class 66 locomotives currently being produced and sold in countries other than the UK?

For reference, South Korea has diesel locomotives equipped with EMD engines, but they are being phased out and scrapped due to the legally required service life.

And there is a 7600 series locomotive manufactured in 2014, but it uses a GE diesel engine.

 

[CDM Transport]

Are Class 66 locomotives currently being produced and sold in countries other than the UK?

For reference, South Korea has diesel locomotives equipped with EMD engines, but they are being phased out and scrapped due to the legally required service life.

And there is a 7600 series locomotive manufactured in 2014, but it uses a GE diesel engine.

I'm not sure but they are not being produced anymore

 

[yh00157]

I'm not sure but they are not being produced anymore

Okay, thank you.

 

[DelW]

Are Class 66 locomotives currently being produced and sold in countries other than the UK?

For reference, South Korea has diesel locomotives equipped with EMD engines, but they are being phased out and scrapped due to the legally required service life.

And there is a 7600 series locomotive manufactured in 2014, but it uses a GE diesel engine.

The class 66s use EMD's 12 cylinder 710-series diesel engine, which is no longer in production*. The 710 engine is two-stroke whose design traces its history back via the 645 series to the 567 series introduced in the early days of dieselisation in the USA.

This two-stroke engine was unable to meet the increasingly stringent emissions regulations in its home market. EMD's replacement was the H1010 engine developed around 2000, but this was unreliable and therefore unpopular with railroad customers. After a long saga, including sale of the company to Caterpillar and renaming as Progress Rail, the 1010 engine was developed into the J1010, which is their current prime mover.

As far as I know, there has never been any attempt to fit a 1010 engine into a class 66 outline body - I assume it's impractical. Therefore new class 66s are not available, which is one of the reasons that European ones have been imported to Britain.

(The engine numbering system relates to cylinder size, being the volume of one cylinder in cubic inches)

*Subsequent correction: it is still in production but does not meet UK regulations for locomotive emissions.

 

[ac6000cw]

The class 66s use EMD's 12 cylinder 710-series diesel engine, which is no longer in production.

AFAIK, the 710 series is still available (the class 69 rebuilds are being fitted with it) - it's just that it doesn't meet the emissions rules in some parts of the world e.g. USA and Europe. It's also sold into non-rail sectors where emissions rules allow it (and there is a marine version available with SCR exhaust after-treatment to meet Tier 4 etc.).

As far as I know, there has never been any attempt to fit a 1010 engine into a class 66 outline body - I assume it's impractical.

A problem with some of the modern medium-speed 4-strokes (e.g. J1010 and GE EVO) is they are quite tall e.g. in the mainstream Australian market, the C44aci still uses the GE 7FDL engine as the GE EVO engine is too tall.

Not sure why the horns for the locomotives specifically built for the UK were changed (I'd guess it might have something to do with how loud the original class 66 horn is - even to this day they make me jump!)

Weren't there complaints from drivers about the volume of the original design?

I was told GBRfs were changed due to 'noise pollution'

I guess that the original class 66 horns were closer to US specs in terms of loudness.

If you've never heard a US loco horn 'up close' for real I can assure you that they are very loud (and the loco headlights are very bright too).

 

[DelW]

AFAIK, the 710 series is still available (the class 69 rebuilds are being fitted with it) - it's just that it doesn't meet the emissions rules in some parts of the world e.g. USA and Europe. It's also sold into non-rail sectors where emissions rules allow it (and there is a marine version available with SCR exhaust after-treatment to meet Tier 4 etc.).

Ah, I'd assumed that the engines were rebuilt existing examples as well, but I suppose that (even apart from the other markets you mention), there are such large numbers of 710 engines in use that new parts or complete engines will be in demand for many years yet.

 

[ac6000cw]

Ah, I'd assumed that the engines were rebuilt existing examples as well, but I suppose that (even apart from the other markets you mention), there are such large numbers of 710 engines in use that new parts or complete engines will be in demand for many years yet.

Progress Rail still supply parts and emissions upgrade kits for 645 series engines, let alone the 710 series.

 

[DelW]

Progress Rail still supply parts and emissions upgrade kits for 645 series engines, let alone the 710 series.

Which is just as well for the owners / operators of the class 59s (along with many owners of SD40s GP40s, etc, of course).

In the context of which my mind is rather boggled that the original FY fleet of 59/0s is nearing their fortieth birthday. FY signed the order on 16th November 1984, they were designed and built by the end of 1985, arrived at Southampton on 21st January 1986, and entered revenue service on 17th February 1986. Fifteen months from order to working is something of a contrast with recent fleet introductions!

I can still clearly remember the interest and excitement around their introduction. I wonder whether there will be a preservation effort when the first ones are eventually retired?

(Edited to correct two mistyped dates)

 

[D365]

The class 66s use EMD's 12 cylinder 710-series diesel engine, which is no longer in production. The 710 engine is two-stroke whose design traces its history back via the 645 series to the 567 series introduced in the early days of dieselisation in the USA.

This two-stroke engine was unable to meet the increasingly stringent emissions regulations in its home market.

AFAIK, the 710 series is still available (the class 69 rebuilds are being fitted with it) - it's just that it doesn't meet the emissions rules in some parts of the world e.g. USA and Europe.

Am I right in saying that re-engined locomotives (i.e. Class 69s) have less stringent requirements for emissions when compared to new build vehicles?

 

[ac6000cw]

Am I right in saying that re-engined locomotives (i.e. Class 69s) have less stringent requirements for emissions when compared to new build vehicles?

AFAIK, yes, correct (and it must be the case otherwise the ongoing class 69 rebuilds using a 710 engine wouldn't be possible).

I can't remember the details for Europe, but I think it's similar to the US situation where if you rebuild you have to improve emissions over the original but don't have to meet current rules for new builds. The US also has rules about how much of the original loco (by value, I think) has to be re-used in order to qualify as a rebuild.

Which is just as well for the owners / operators of the class 59s (along with many owners of SD40s GP40s, etc, of course).

In the context of which my mind is rather boggled that the original FY fleet of 59/0s is nearing their fortieth birthday. FY signed the order on 16th November 1984, they were designed and built by the end of 1985, arrived at Southampton on 21st January 1985, and entered revenue service on 17th February 1985. Fifteen months from order to working is something of a contrast with recent fleet introductions!

I can still clearly remember the interest and excitement around their introduction. I wonder whether there will be a preservation effort when the first ones are eventually retired?

I would hope so - they have a significant place in UK railway history, for several reasons (e.g. I think the first private-owner mainline diesels and first EMD-powered mainline locos on BR. Setting the performance standard that resulted in the spec for what became the class 60s. Holding the UK 'heaviest train' record of 11982 tonnes, hauled by 59005 & 59001, commemorated by a plaque on 59005).

Yes, nearly 40 years spent hauling the heaviest regular trains in the UK.

 

[43096]

AFAIK, yes, correct (and it must be the case otherwise the ongoing class 69 rebuilds using a 710 engine wouldn't be possible).

I can't remember the details for Europe, but I think it's similar to the US situation where if you rebuild you have to improve emissions over the original but don't have to meet current rules for new builds. The US also has rules about how much of the original loco (by value, I think) has to be re-used in order to qualify as a rebuild.

The rules don’t preclude some major rebuilds, such as Norfolk Southern’s DC-to-AC rebuilds from Dash 9s to AC44C6Ms. That’s a serious rebuild with new cabs, bogies, ACctraction motors and GEVO-type control cubicles. About the only bits retained are the frame, cooler groups and 7FDL16 engines, though the engines get GE’s “Advantage” upgrade with common rail fuel injection and reduced emissions.

 

[ac6000cw]

The rules don’t preclude some major rebuilds, such as Norfolk Southern’s DC-to-AC rebuilds from Dash 9s to AC44C6Ms. That’s a serious rebuild with new cabs, bogies, ACctraction motors and GEVO-type control cubicles. About the only bits retained are the frame, cooler groups and 7FDL16 engines, though the engines get GE’s “Advantage” upgrade with common rail fuel injection and reduced emissions.

Yes - IIRC the 'minimum content' requirement is fairly low, and I suspect those DC-to-AC rebuilds are/were close to the limit. Doubtless 'rebuild' versus 'new' affects the accountancy and tax situations too.

 

[43096]

Yes - IIRC the 'minimum content' requirement is fairly low, and I suspect those DC-to-AC rebuilds are/were close to the limit. Doubtless 'rebuild' versus 'new' affects the accountancy and tax situations too.

Probably - although the driving factor (as with the other mid-life rebuilds that the likes of Canadian Pacific, Union Pacific and CSX are doing) appears to be a dissatisfaction with the Tier 4 requirements which make locomotives more complex and costly to both acquire and maintain, while ironically using more fuel.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The rules don’t preclude some major rebuilds, such as Norfolk Southern’s DC-to-AC rebuilds from Dash 9s to AC44C6Ms. That’s a serious rebuild with new cabs, bogies, ACctraction motors and GEVO-type control cubicles. About the only bits retained are the frame, cooler groups and 7FDL16 engines, though the engines get GE’s “Advantage” upgrade with common rail fuel injection and reduced emissions.

That is interesting. Pity DB Schenker didn't splash the cash and do a similar traction upgrade on the HTE class 66/6s. Fitted with AC motors and inverters they might well give the 59s a run for their money, but I guess they would be too heavy and that kind of investment would not be met.

 

[yh00157]

Progress Rail still supply parts and emissions upgrade kits for 645 series engines, let alone the 710 series.

Thanks for the good information.

For your information, the EMD engine used in Korea uses the 645 series engine.

The 4400 series, 7300 series, 7400 series, and 7500 series locomotives use this engine.

 

[Chen Melling]

The class 66s use EMD's 12 cylinder 710-series diesel engine, which is no longer in production.

As has already been noted, EMD still produces the 710-series, but not only for spare parts and re-engine projects, also for new-build locos for countries where there are less strict environmental requirements. The most recent example has just been publicised as a deal for 27 units of the proven SD70ACS model to Hafeet Rail, a projected new international line along the Persian Gulf / Gulf of Oman.

Australian customers are also still ordering 710-powered locomotives, specifically the GT46Ace Gen II model, the lates order being from Southern Shorthaul.

By the way, it appears that the last Class 66s built were the batch for Egyptian Talgo trains, supplied until 2022.