Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Invincible]

701014 on 5Q20 Clapham - Hounslow - Twickenham - Waterloo this morning.

Interestingly though, 5Q20 is shown as being operated by SWR on RealTimeTrains.

The normal 5Q50/51/52 mileage paths don’t show an operator as they’re done by GBRf.

5Q50/51/52 test seemed to run OK today
5Q20 test did not
Would have thought some tests to Windsor would have been done by now, as the signalling/track work has been completed

 

[444045]

5Q50/51/52 test seemed to run OK today
5Q20 test did not
Would have thought some tests to Windsor would have been done by now, as the signalling/track work has been completed

U.701021 was on 5Q51 today, passed it at Basingstoke.

 

[Busman]

the guard (working mostly in the passenger area)

Mostly? You mean mostly sitting in the cab of at the back of the train. It's an extremely rare event to see a guard either walk through the train or open and close the doors in the passenger area. Its almost like they are scared of passengers, which in all honesty, in this modern world, is exactly what they are there for.

A guard opening and closing doors is old school anyway, it's in the past, Southern and GA which are, in the main, between 8-10 carriages long have no guards so I cannot understand the difference between a 10 car train going to Southend with no guard and a SWR train going to Reading with a guard.

Elizabeth line, 9 carriage train (almost the same length as a 12 carriage in old money) travels long distance from Shenfield to Reading with .... no guard.

 

[py_megapixel]

Mostly? You mean mostly sitting in the cab of at the back of the train. It's an extremely rare event to see a guard either walk through the train or open and close the doors in the passenger area. Its almost like they are scared of passengers, which in all honesty, in this modern world, is exactly what they are there for.

Are you talking specifically about SWR here or in general?

Last time I went on SWR was several years ago, but my much more recent experience of Northern, CrossCountry, London Northwestern and Great Western, as well as TransPennine on the occasion that they manage to run a train, has been that guards are more often than not present in the passenger compartment.

 

[Goldfish62]

Mostly? You mean mostly sitting in the cab of at the back of the train. It's an extremely rare event to see a guard either walk through the train or open and close the doors in the passenger area. Its almost like they are scared of passengers, which in all honesty, in this modern world, is exactly what they are there for.

I think that's a bit naive to think that's the main reason *some* guards never leave the cab.

And if they really are scared of the public, so much so that they never walk through the train then they're clearly unsuited for any public facing role.

 

[Busman]

I think that's a bit naive to think that's the main reason *some* guards never leave the cab.

And if they really are scared of the public, so much so that they never walk through the train then they're clearly unsuited for any public facing role.

*most*

Okay, maybe not scared, lazy then.

A lot of people should not be in public facing roles but they are, many people take jobs for the sake of a job and if they can find ways of doing least amount of work possible, they will. And what better way of doing that than sitting in the cab of a train only poking your head out to ensure peoples legs aren't trapped in doors.

It makes a mockery of the 'trains need guards' argument and when other train operators happily run up and down lines with no guards, it further proves that point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==

Are you talking specifically about SWR here or in general?

Last time I went on SWR was several years ago, but my much more recent experience of Northern, CrossCountry, London Northwestern and Great Western, as well as TransPennine on the occasion that they manage to run a train, has been that guards are more often than not present in the passenger compartment.

Long distance trains, ie Cross Country, GWR and EMR have guards and yes, you have visuals on them but that's only because they are checking for tickets or to buy tickets.

My main issue is the short distance routes need for a guard if they are just going to lock themselves away out of sight, ie, to Hampton Court or the Kingston Loop services. Travel can be dangerous at times for vulnerable people so if you're going to have guards, be seen so it deters these unruly youths running around trains and terrorising people.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

My main issue this the short distance routes need for a guard if they are just going to lock themselves away out of sight, ie, to Hampton Court or the Kingston Loop services. Travel can be dangerous at times for vulnerable people so if you're going to have guards, be seen so it deters these unruly youths running around trains and terrorising people.

How would you like to be a guard working late(r) evening trains with yobs and drunk n' disorderly passengers? Guards can be vulnerable too

 

[Busman]

How would you like to be a guard working late(r) evening trains with yobs and drunk n' disorderly passengers? Guards can be vulnerable too

So there may as well not be a guard then. The clue is in the job title isn't it, a train guard who guards the train and is there for some sort of assurance and safety of passengers.

If the purpose of the guard is just to open and close doors, then you may as well give that to the driver like other operators do. This goes back to my original point ...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How would you like to be a guard working late(r) evening trains with yobs and drunk n' disorderly passengers? Guards can be vulnerable too

If they’re too scared to guard the train and it’s passengers it prompts the question of whether being a guard is for them. It’s in the job title.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==

So there may as well not be a guard then. The clue is in the job title isn't it, a train guard who guards the train and is there for some sort of assurance and safety of passengers.

If the purpose of the guard is just to open and close doors, then you may as well give that to the driver like other operators do. This goes back to my original point ...

Just seen that you said the same, hadn’t realised. Great minds and all that

 

[Busman]

If they’re too scared to guard the train and it’s passengers it prompts the question of whether being a guard is for them. It’s in the job title.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==


Just seen that you said the same, hadn’t realised. Great minds and all that

Its pretty obvious isn't it, I'm surprised this nonsense wasn't sorted out years ago but then at the same time I'm not surprised.

"Here's the job spec, this is what your responsibilities will be, you like what you see?"
"Yes"

You then don't crying off saying you don't like certain aspects of the job.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Its pretty obvious isn't it, I'm surprised this nonsense wasn't sorted out years ago but then at the same time I'm not surprised.

"Here's the job spec, this is what your responsibilities will be, you like what you see?"
"Yes"

You then don't crying off saying you don't like certain aspects of the job.

It’s a bit like cabin crew, I’m sure they don’t want to be in an incident or emergency landing anymore than we do, but their job is to let the emergency training kick in, keep the passengers safe and help to get the situation through as safely as possible.

 

[The_Train]

You then don't crying off saying you don't like certain aspects of the job.

Nobody signs up to a regular job to be assaulted, physically or verbally, by the dregs of a broken society. Guards are not there to be lord and protector of a train, they are there to be a helping hand to passengers, to offer information and assistance, to ensure passengers have paid to travel etc.

Claiming that someone would be "crying off" when they are being verbally or physically abused is just utterly disgusting

 

[Monty]

Its pretty obvious isn't it, I'm surprised this nonsense wasn't sorted out years ago but then at the same time I'm not surprised.

"Here's the job spec, this is what your responsibilities will be, you like what you see?"
"Yes"

You then don't crying off saying you don't like certain aspects of the job.

Ah yes the old "I've never done the Job but because I subscribe to Peter Harris's rag of a magazine (though I hear he has finally moved on to pastures new) and post regularly on these forums I am an expert and judging if someone is or is not fit to do the job or if the job is relevant in the first place."

To touch base on antisocial behaviour, train crew are not superhuman. We are not trained to confront people who treat others in some of the vilest ways imaginable. We do what we can, if we can walk though late at night to reassure passengers we will, if it's bedlam other than a phone call to police and a PA to ask other passengers to move to other parts of the train there is little we can do.

And without being pedantic the guards first duty is for the safety of the train and sometimes that doesn't always mean the safety of the passengers on board.

Also citing other TOCs and networks who operate DOO as examples of why the role of the guard is irrelevant is a poor measuring stick when you consider local conditions, rolling stock and other factors.

More than happy to put up with some of the less desirable aspects of the job (been on the railway 17 odd years now and 12 of that as a guard) but I won't put up with the constant criticism on this forum from people really don't have a clue about how this stuff is implemented or regulated.

 

[jwhite9185]

506 and 511 just went through Woking being hauled by a loco.

 

[The_Train]

It’s a bit like cabin crew, I’m sure they don’t want to be in an incident or emergency landing anymore than we do, but their job is to let the emergency training kick in, keep the passengers safe and help to get the situation through as safely as possible.

With the greatest of respect, dealing with an emergency situation on an aircraft which you have spent many months/years training for is nothing like dealing with some scumbag on a train who has chosen to punch you in the face because you "dared" to ask to see their ticket

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==

506 and 511 just went through Woking being hauled by a loco.

Presumably this working - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K07309/2023-09-11/detailed#allox_id=0

Anybody able to clarify please?

 

[Davester50]

With the greatest of respect, dealing with an emergency situation on an aircraft which you have spent many months/years training for is nothing like dealing with some scumbag on a train who has chosen to punch you in the face because you "dared" to ask to see their ticket

Exactly.
I can't remember the last time I was security screened for metals and liquids on SWR...

 

[Merle Haggard]

clip

The timetable pre-2020 was simply unworkable without the additional technology as the network did not have sufficient capacity to accommodate the number of services at the time with their booked lengths. Additional services had been specified and implemented without anyone really understanding what can be accommodated in reality. This had been proven by repeated simulation exercises. It (together with reduced infrastructure reliability) explains a significant part of why punctuality continued to decline for many years and ended up in a prolonged period of what can only be described as "abysmal".

clip

I am only an outsider looking on with mild interest as far as S.W. trains goes.

But I have the distinct memory that one of the partners when the new franchise was awarded was the operator of Hong Kong Rapid Transit, and they made a statement to the effect that 'We run trains on an x seconds headway, far more intensely than on South Western trains. With our expertise, we could drastically improve frequency and reliability'.
Apart from the implied 'you British railway managers are all useless we'll sort you out!' I did wonder whether there was a junction in Hong Kong with as many complications as Clapham; and whether the stock used there was as disparate in performance (in every way) as the stock here. But hey what do I know?

Does anyone else remember this? And, if so, was anyone taken to task when they failed? Of course, if the answer to the latter was yes it would be a first.

 

[444045]

With the greatest of respect, dealing with an emergency situation on an aircraft which you have spent many months/years training for is nothing like dealing with some scumbag on a train who has chosen to punch you in the face because you "dared" to ask to see their ticket

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==


Presumably this working - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K07309/2023-09-11/detailed#allox_id=0

Anybody able to clarify please?

That is correct - 5Q10 47749 hauling 701511/506.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is a traction & rolling stock thread to discuss updates relating to Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

If anyone would like to discuss any other topic, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) or use an existing one (if there is); thanks!

 

[Carlisle]

We run trains on an x seconds headway, far more intensely than on South Western trains. With our expertise, we could drastically improve frequency and reliability'.

Can only assume they were referring to the planned Automated Braking & Door Opening system on the 701s as signalling etc wasn’t due to be upgraded during their original franchise period.?

 

[43055]

Was on the Red Funnel ferry from Southampton to Isle of Wight this morning and spotted at least 4 701's at I think at Marchwood.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Was on the Red Funnel ferry from Southampton to Isle of Wight this morning and spotted at least 4 701's at I think at Marchwood.

That's right, there are a few stored in the MoD exchange sidings. 029 and 045 I've identified when driving past the perimeter fence; the others I've not identified, though I'm certain sets have already been quoted earlier in this thread

 

[The_Train]

Was on the Red Funnel ferry from Southampton to Isle of Wight this morning and spotted at least 4 701's at I think at Marchwood.

That's right, there are a few stored in the MoD exchange sidings. 029 and 045 I've identified when driving past the perimeter fence; the others I've not identified, though I'm certain sets have already been quoted earlier in this thread

My records indicate 019, 022, 029, 032, 038, 045, 046 & 049 to be at Marchwood - not sure if any have snuck out under the radar since they went there though

 

[Sun Chariot]

My records indicate 019, 022, 029, 032, 038, 045, 046 & 049 to be at Marchwood - not sure if any have snuck out under the radar since they went there though

Thanks for that. I saw only 4 sets in the MoD exchange sidings last Friday; but I wouldn't be surprised if other sets are farther into the MoD complex

 

[Invincible]

I am only an outsider looking on with mild interest as far as S.W. trains goes.

But I have the distinct memory that one of the partners when the new franchise was awarded was the operator of Hong Kong Rapid Transit, and they made a statement to the effect that 'We run trains on an x seconds headway, far more intensely than on South Western trains. With our expertise, we could drastically improve frequency and reliability'.
Apart from the implied 'you British railway managers are all useless we'll sort you out!' I did wonder whether there was a junction in Hong Kong with as many complications as Clapham; and whether the stock used there was as disparate in performance (in every way) as the stock here. But hey what do I know?

Does anyone else remember this? And, if so, was anyone taken to task when they failed? Of course, if the answer to the latter was yes it would be a first.

MTR also run class 345s Aventras for TfL on the Elizabeth line, not quite perfect, but getting there.
As a passenger using Vauxhall and Clapham Junction the frequency of trains are about 2 or 3 minutes, the problem is one late running class 455 train messes up the timetable. Using the new technology and changes to how the crew works on the new 701s, will mean if there is a problem the timetable should be able to be restored to normal quicker.
The guards will have an important role such as helping wheelchair users on and off trains safely.
The next step seems to be unions and SWR (First MTR) management agreeing on more testing and training, Some of the lessons learnt on the Elizabeth line hopefully will be used at SWR. Alstom may still need to further tweek software in a reasonable time, as more testing with SWR staff, intially on the Waterloo to Windsor line (so far none, even the daily 5Q50/51/52 tests do not go to Windsor?), might bring up some unexpected faults before the 701s can safely be brought into full service.

 

[Snow1964]

Alstom may still need to further tweek software in a reasonable time, as more testing with SWR staff, intially on the Waterloo to Windsor line (so far none, even the daily 5Q50/51/52 tests do not go to Windsor?), might bring up some unexpected faults before the 701s can safely be brought into full service.

We are now at the point which is 4 years since first trains were originally due to be on SWR for final testing, after factory testing in spring & summer 2019. Remember contractually originally were due in service from Autumn 2019, with full fleet in service before Christmas 2020.

Admittedly pandemic came when about third of the fleet were due to be in service (in service, not built), so do have to wonder why some of this wasn't known about and fixes put in place 4 years ago.

I question if 4 years can be deemed in a reasonable time.

I also wonder if Derby deserves to survive if it cannot fix problems of its own making in 4 years. But that is for the other thread.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Was on the Red Funnel ferry from Southampton to Isle of Wight this morning and spotted at least 4 701's at I think at Marchwood.

Leave it much longer and the 701s will be old enough to be sent to the Isle of Wight themselves!

 

[swt_passenger]

Apart from the implied 'you British railway managers are all useless we'll sort you out!' I did wonder whether there was a junction in Hong Kong with as many complications as Clapham; and whether the stock used there was as disparate in performance (in every way) as the stock here. But hey what do I know?

Does anyone else remember this? And, if so, was anyone taken to task when they failed? Of course, if the answer to the latter was yes it would be a first.

Even then I don’t think Clapham is actually a complicated junction at all, yes it’s got a lot of parallel routes but they effectively all operate independently. The perceived problem there for SWR was the passenger churn meant dwell times were routinely exceeded.

 

[TEW]

Even then I don’t think Clapham is actually a complicated junction at all, yes it’s got a lot of parallel routes but they effectively all operate independently. The perceived problem there for SWR was the passenger churn meant dwell times were routinely exceeded.

Not just the volume of passengers imo, but the gap and curve which slows down boarding and alighting. Vauxhall is similar.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not just the volume of passengers imo, but the gap and curve which slows down boarding and alighting. Vauxhall is similar.

Yes that will be highly relevant as well, but I think that’s still quite separate to it being perceived as a “junction”.