Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[swtrains]

Some other potential ideas:
1. Get the rest of the 458/4s into service ASAP and get clearance for all potential routes.
2. Retain and overhaul all 8 remaining 458/5s (Inc those in store).
3. Several mainline services were strengthened in December using displaced 450s made surplus due to 458/4 introduction. Reduce at least some these back to previous length to release some 450s back to suburban services.

All the above would allow the worst of the 455s to go, with robbing of parts and possible reforming to keep the remainder soldiering on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==


Although I'm assuming that's down to incompetence on SWR's part by not sufficiently preparing the platforms for such operation, despite having years to do so.

4. (bring back the 707s)!!

 

[slowroad]

4. (bring back the 707s)!!

Better to force through DOO. It might mean a long strike, but with the potential to work from home the economic damage would be minimal. Recruit and train replacement drivers if necessary. We are moving towards a world with driverless vehicles, at least on motorways and in other controlled contexts. Insisting on two members of staff on a train is unacceptable.

 

[DMckduck]

Better to force through DOO. It might mean a long strike, but with the potential to work from home the economic damage would be minimal. Recruit and train replacement drivers if necessary. We are moving towards a world with driverless vehicles, at least on motorways and in other controlled contexts. Insisting on two members of staff on a train is unacceptable.

Who's paying for the increased pay to take on DOO responsibilities.

Replacement drivers you say? That's 12 months absolute best case scenario from first day of rules. 18-24 months is more realistic.

Accessibility requirements make 2 members onboard a necessity, plus driverless trains are never happening so no point getting into specifics on that.

Anyway back to reality...

 

[swtrains]

Some other potential ideas:
1. Get the rest of the 458/4s into service ASAP and get clearance for all potential routes.
2. Retain and overhaul all 8 remaining 458/5s (Inc those in store).
3. Several mainline services were strengthened in December using displaced 450s made surplus due to 458/4 introduction. Reduce at least some these back to previous length to release some 450s back to suburban services.

All the above would allow the worst of the 455s to go, with robbing of parts and possible reforming to keep the remainder soldiering on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==


Although I'm assuming that's down to incompetence on SWR's part by not sufficiently preparing the platforms for such operation, despite having years to do so.

I think 1 and 2 are great ideas, particularly 2 because it seemed like a waste to send them to storage when there's clearly no constant pace with this rollout, so it would make sense to give them their relevant exams so they can actually provide a capacity boost, since they are capable of actually running on the network.
However, I'm guessing due to the leasing and stuff, they wouldn't want to do that if they have to be returned in a year.

Regarding idea 1: There was /4 testing today on the Shepperton line so who knows? Haven't had any 701 testing for me to post in a while...

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:53981/2025-01-29/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:54008/2025-01-29/detailed

 

[norbitonflyer]

Probably.

It’s impressive that they’ve ended with a ten car fixed formation that’s longer than 2*4+2 car formation. Usually intermediate cabs/couplers mean the opposite is the issue.

Thanks (if that is the right word) to the new cab design a pair of 701/5s is the same length as a 701/0. But that isn't the point. In a 455-455-456 formation (or, for the matter of that, a 2x458/5) the guard will be using one of the middle cabs, and thus will be on the platform whether the rear cab is on the platform or not. The platform extensions ensured that the rearmost passenger door was on the platform, but not necessarily the rear cab, which is several metres further back.

 

[wickham]

Will things change when GBR takes over - the single overview of the WHOLE of Britians passenger railways ? They should have the power to overrule previous decisions and bring ALL operations together - as BR used to. In which case, the ovious approach to this problem in my view would be to reinstate/retain the 350/2s on London Midland and send the 350/1s to the South Western, with dc suitably re-activated. After all, they are basicaly AC/DC versions of the 450s, so crew training should be minimal. The only problem might be that Northam Depot might have too much work in dealing with an influx of additional units. This arrangement would not need to be peramanant and could revert when enough 701s are avaliable/crews trained.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

1. Get the rest of the 458/4s into service ASAP and get clearance for all potential routes.

This is already happening. Was in a bulletin a while ago

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

Will things change when GBR takes over - the single overview of the WHOLE of Britians passenger railways ? They should have the power to overrule previous decisions and bring ALL operations together - as BR used to. In which case, the ovious approach to this problem in my view would be to reinstate/retain the 350/2s on London Midland and send the 350/1s to the South Western, with dc suitably re-activated. After all, they are basicaly AC/DC versions of the 450s, so crew training should be minimal. The only problem might be that Northam Depot might have too much work in dealing with an influx of additional units. This arrangement would not need to be peramanant and could revert when enough 701s are avaliable/crews trained.

By the time GBR is in full effect (nationalisation on it's own is not GBR), the 701s will either be in service or the programme will have been abandoned due to multiple inquiries as to why the trains would have, at that point, probably taken around 9 years to enter service fully

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

Tried to post about the current situation on the 701 Facebook group and the post was deleted within about an hour.
There's quite a few SWR staff in there, as well as project standard manager for the 701s, so I think it's quite easy to connect the dots and work out what happened there

 

[Flange Squeal]

I had understood that all the Metro Guards were being upgraded to commercial as part of the agreement to introduce DCO (sorry may have lost track)?

You understood wrong. Metro Guards will be able to check and scan contactless cards and e-tickets - not sell them. See the post below by user 'I_am_Nobody' in the 'Commercial Guard - Woking SWR' thread.

It's a newly agreed addition to the role, agreed with the Union several years ago and finally being progressed now that the roll-out of the 701s is... well, politely said: somewhat progressing. They will be asked to pick up RIDs (Revenue Inspection Devices) which allow them to tap contactless and smart-cards. They still won't be able to check actual tickets with these and this is still being kept to Commercial Guards, but Metro Guards will be asked to do visual inspections on these, which are obviously not infallible!

 

[Mainsideman]

Will things change when GBR takes over - the single overview of the WHOLE of Britians passenger railways ? They should have the power to overrule previous decisions and bring ALL operations together - as BR used to. In which case, the ovious approach to this problem in my view would be to reinstate/retain the 350/2s on London Midland and send the 350/1s to the South Western, with dc suitably re-activated. After all, they are basicaly AC/DC versions of the 450s, so crew training should be minimal. The only problem might be that Northam Depot might have too much work in dealing with an influx of additional units. This arrangement would not need to be peramanant and could revert when enough 701s are avaliable/crews trained.

What previous decisions could gbr reverse? Everything has a union agreement which would have to be adhered to even when gbr takes control.

 

[43066]

You understood wrong. Metro Guards will be able to check and scan contactless cards and e-tickets - not sell them. See the post below by user 'I_am_Nobody' in the 'Commercial Guard - Woking SWR' thread.

Indeed I did - thanks for clarifying. So that’s another potential industrial dispute in the offing.

 

[Mainsideman]

Indeed I did - thanks for clarifying. So that’s another potential industrial dispute in the offing.

Why would there an industrial dispute it has alredy been agreed and training is underway?

 

[I_am_Nobody]

Why would there an industrial dispute it has alredy been agreed and training is underway?

Indeed, there won't be any dispute over this particular nugget. This was all agreed through the Unions in the previous agreement, and allowed for the recruitment of Metro Guards to resume when it was previously frozen. What may throw the cat amongst the pigeons is the move back to DOGC on what seems to be an ongoing, regularly reviewed basis. Sentiment amongst the Guards I've spoken to lean towards them being somewhat dismayed that the Drivers are retaining the agreed-upon salary boost for DODC operation when they aren't now actually retaining the responsibility and potential liability of closing the doors. Though things are suspiciously quiet on this front.

You understood wrong. Metro Guards will be able to check and scan contactless cards and e-tickets - not sell them. See the post below by user 'I_am_Nobody' in the 'Commercial Guard - Woking SWR' thread.

I've never been cited as a source before, ha. What a strange feeling! Indeed yes, Metro Guards will stay Metro Guards, especially with DOGC being a thing!

 

[DMckduck]

Sentiment amongst the Guards I've spoken to lean towards them being somewhat dismayed that the Drivers are retaining the agreed-upon salary boost for DODC operation when they aren't now actually retaining the responsibility and potential liability of closing the doors.

This is probably exactly what the DFT are thinking of with the most recent fail to agree on DOGC.

DCO isn't being canned that easily especially with the taxpayer now footing the bill permanently.

 

[Goldfish62]

This is probably exactly what the DFT are thinking of with the most recent fail to agree on DOGC.

DCO isn't being canned that easily especially with the taxpayer now footing the bill permanently.

With SWR soon being in common ownership with GA (successful extension of DCO across the entire network) and SE (decades of DOO experience) perhaps a team could be seconded across to SWR to see through the implementation. Just a thought.

Lord Hendy said to the select committee recently that the government wants to see quick and tangible benefits arising from common ownership of the "nationalised" TOCs.

 

[RichSwitch]

Poor specification and bad design will always cause a plethora of Human Factors issues down the line. Some of them can be fatal (in the systems sense).

To my mind, whoever agreed to procure these trains and whoever specified them should go and get jobs in McDonald’s instead.

I think what happened is that the introduction has reached an insurmountable impasse insofar as the introduction of these trains is concerned. Write it off, order some others, move the 701s elsewhere (I don’t care what others will say on that idea), and don’t repeat the big mistake!

And let’s have a proper investigation and report into the whole saga. Or maybe there’s a PhD thesis in it?

Just my opinion of course. Alternatives are available and equally valid.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

order some others

In a perfect world, yes. In a world with the current financial situation, no. Plus that would indeed make it the 2nd instance of new trains being replaced soon after they entered service on the South West, with the previous 707... so I don't believe anyone would fund that

 

[boiledbeans2]

4. (bring back the 707s)!!

5. bring back the plastic pigs!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Write it off, order some others, move the 701s elsewhere

Even though they can be fitted with pantographs, who would want them? Most rolling stock coming up for replacement is diesel, so the 701s can't replace them. The oldest EMUs still in use are the class 318s and 320s, and I can't see Scotrail having a use for 10-car units. Likewise Andy Burnham might like to replace the 323s on his "Bee" network, but again 10 cars is far too long for platforms in that area.
That leaves the Networkers on South Eastern, but is there any reason to think the 701s would work on 3rd Rail any better because they had crossed into the Eastern Hemisphere? And in any case SE has very expensively extended its stations to take 12-car trains.

And in the meantime, the 455s are just expected to soldier on until the new order is delivered?

 

[SWT_USER]

Even though they can be fitted with pantographs, who would want them? Most rolling stock coming up for replacement is diesel, so the 701s can't replace them. The oldest EMUs still in use are the class 318s and 320s, and I can't see Scotrail having a use for 10-car units. Likewise Andy Burnham might like to replace the 323s on his "Bee" network, but again 10 cars is far too long for platforms in that area.
That leaves the Networkers on South Eastern, but is there any reason to think the 701s would work on 3rd Rail any better because they had crossed into the Eastern Hemisphere? And in any case SE has very expensively extended its stations to take 12-car trains.

And in the meantime, the 455s are just expected to soldier on until the new order is delivered?

I suspect anyone but SWR would have got these in to service by now. SWR are clearly happy to pocket the management fee for the next few months doing less than the bare minimum.

RE the bold - well that's the big question isn't it. Someone will either have to (further) cut services or spend money keeping the 455's from falling apart.

Hopefully GBR have a plan to get these in to service ASAP and achieve what SWR have failed to do in the last 5 years... If that is the case presumably nothing will be announced until GBR are officially in charge.

 

[Bigfoot]

I suspect anyone but SWR would have got these in to service by now. SWR are clearly happy to pocket the management fee for the next few months doing less than the bare minimum.

Many staff believe that First Group are trying to break the franchise to punish the government for removing their revenue due to nationalisation in the hope that it fails. They are doing the bare minimum on things throughout the business, vanity projects yes, actual service delivery and improvements no. Moral is below the floor.

 

[Goldfish62]

That leaves the Networkers on South Eastern, but is there any reason to think the 701s would work on 3rd Rail any better because they had crossed into the Eastern Hemisphere? And in any case SE has very expensively extended its stations to take 12-car trains.

And in the meantime, the 455s are just expected to soldier on until the new order is delivered?

There's no suggestion that the 701s that have entered service so far aren't working, as the recent posted extract from Modern Railways showed. Quite the opposite. It's an SWR operational issue with the method of working that's the problem.

Also, as highlighted in the same post even if money was spent on the severe corrosion issues to stop the 455s falling apart there's the lack of spare parts. If parts can't be sourced it's game over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

Many staff believe that First Group are trying to break the franchise to punish the government for removing their revenue due to nationalisation in the hope that it fails. They are doing the bare minimum on things throughout the business, vanity projects yes, actual service delivery and improvements no. Moral is below the floor.

They've been doing a great job at trying to break the franchise since 2017.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Many staff believe that First Group are trying to break the franchise to punish the government for removing their revenue due to nationalisation in the hope that it fails. They are doing the bare minimum on things throughout the business, vanity projects yes, actual service delivery and improvements no. Moral is below the floor.

This is very interesting. I wouldn't be surprised. First clearly aren't very happy with how the new government is changing the railways, not only because of the obvious nationalisation and removal of their revenue across many operators, but also a few recent moves to restrict Open Access, which has become the company's new strategy going forward. That's a different topic entirely, but since they have little to loose on their franchised TOCs, it's far from impossible they're doing what you're suggesting.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

Does anyone remember during the peak of the COVID pandemic when there was a chance First was going to have to abandon their franchises (including SWR) because they were in such a dire financial situation?

 

[willontrains]

reinstate/retain the 350/2s on London Midland and send the 350/1s to the South Western, with dc suitably re-activated.

Unfortunately 350s have an incompatible TMS, this would mean they can only work with other 350s.

So that’s another potential industrial dispute in the offing.

It's already been approved and the tablet/mobile scanners have been given out to WA and GLD Metro Guards

There's no suggestion that the 701s that have entered service so far aren't working,

However the almost daily cancellations and even after six years only a select few of the 90 unit fleet are in service is a small indication that some of the fleet isn't working as intended.

SWR are clearly happy to pocket the management fee for the next few months doing less than the bare minimum.

Will not mention names but can confirm this to be true. I'm quite well known to a considerable number of the senior management (before you ask, im posting this under an alias). One of the many issues at the moment is with the internal and external cab door, and a spring which is used to assist the opening and closing of it as it is very heavy. By the sounds of it, every time a new spring gets delivered it is mysteriously not the right size, or it is broken? This has been going on for months. Similar issues with the CCTV at restricted stations meaning that more infrastructure, as well as a frankly awfully designed TMS.

Retain and overhaul all 8 remaining 458/5s (Inc those in store).

unfortunately some have already become tin cans.

458/4 introduction

I'm willing to talk in detail about the issues with some of the 458/4s, if someone could link me the preferred thread and I'll explain some juicy info!

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I'm willing to talk in detail about the issues with some of the 458/4s, if someone could link me the preferred thread and I'll explain some juicy info!

Fire away: SWR Class 458 to be retained

 

[GeoffS]

Will things change when GBR takes over - the single overview of the WHOLE of Britians passenger railways ? They should have the power to overrule previous decisions and bring ALL operations together - as BR used to. In which case, the ovious approach to this problem in my view would be to reinstate/retain the 350/2s on London Midland and send the 350/1s to the South Western, with dc suitably re-activated. After all, they are basicaly AC/DC versions of the 450s, so crew training should be minimal. The only problem might be that Northam Depot might have too much work in dealing with an influx of additional units. This arrangement would not need to be peramanant and could revert when enough 701s are avaliable/crews trained.

As I understand it the 350/2s are due off-lease, to be replaced by the 730/2s - haven't visited the southern WCML recently, so don't know how advanced that process is. Many, if not all, of the 350/1s on the other hand have been upgraded to 110 running, required on the WCML, where they share tracks with faster Pendolinos, so need to stay there.

 

[Class15]

As I understand it the 350/2s are due off-lease, to be replaced by the 730/2s - haven't visited the southern WCML recently, so don't know how advanced that process is. Many, if not all, of the 350/1s on the other hand have been upgraded to 110 running, required on the WCML, where they share tracks with faster Pendolinos, so need to stay there.

The 350/2s also have the 110mph upgrades.

 

[Goldfish62]

As I understand it the 350/2s are due off-lease, to be replaced by the 730/2s - haven't visited the southern WCML recently, so don't know how advanced that process is. Many, if not all, of the 350/1s on the other hand have been upgraded to 110 running, required on the WCML, where they share tracks with faster Pendolinos, so need to stay there.

Ah yes, the 730/2s that sit around in sidings not doing anything. Sound familiar?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Ah yes, the 730/2s that sit around in sidings not doing anything. Sound familiar?

Well it's another case of a non-standard aventra, in the sense it runs to 110mph. The platform seems to not play nicely with non-standard.

 

[I_am_Nobody]

even if money was spent on the severe corrosion issues to stop the 455s falling apart there's the lack of spare parts. If parts can't be sourced it's game over.

The 701s need to be urgently rolled out because the 455s are due to reach their mileage limits within the next year or so. Parts are becoming few and far between, with several of the failed units that were held back for scavenging now bare and gone for scrap, to my knowledge. Might be wrong, but that's my understanding.

Essentially, it does come down to the method of working and operation, and it wouldn't surprise me if FirstGroup and/or MTR (must not forget they are involved in this franchise too!) were making it not work till the issue became a nationalised one.

 

[Mainsideman]

The 701s need to be urgently rolled out because the 455s are due to reach their mileage limits within the next year or so. Parts are becoming few and far between, with several of the failed units that were held back for scavenging now bare and gone for scrap, to my knowledge. Might be wrong, but that's my understanding.

Essentially, it does come down to the method of working and operation, and it wouldn't surprise me if FirstGroup and/or MTR (must not forget they are involved in this franchise too!) were making it not work till the issue became a nationalised one.

I believe this is the case also, and I firmly believe DCO ( with onboard staff ) will become the standard method of operation across the country eventually