Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Mikey C]

Paragon
Nova 1
Nova 2
Nova 3
Aurora
Castle

Azuma is quite a silly name.

And previously the Voyager, Super Voyager and Meridians, the Javelins...

 

[Goldfish62]

And previously the Voyager, Super Voyager and Meridians, the Javelins...

And to those who claim that a humble third rail suburban EMU has never had a brand name displayed on it I give you:

Kent Link Networker

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Personally I'm not massively fazed if it has a stupid name or not, I just want it to enter service and be reliable, which is more than can be said for some Aventras. I have seen pictures of the interior and do like it compared to the tinny interior 455/456s and the dirty 458s.

 

[dingdinger]

Will they have carpets?

The only door release buttons are in the drivers cab. There is one door close/signal bell panel on each side per coach with a PA and C2C. There’s a TMS feature that will allow the guard to secure each coach from the inside using the door open button

Will the guard be closing the doors?

 

[pompeyfan]

Will they have carpets?


Will the guard be closing the doors?

that’s still yet to be confirmed but sadly highly unlikely, the units do not have carpets.

 

[Flange Squeal]

701012 has had a new livery applied, courtesy of some “artists”.

 

[Goldfish62]

701012 has had a new livery applied, courtesy of some “artists”.

Sadly only a matter of time.

 

[jon0844]

Graffiti attacks, inside and out, are way up all over the UK during the lockdown.

 

[Goldfish62]

Graffiti attacks, inside and out, are way up all over the UK during the lockdown.

Agreed. More trains lying idle and with less supervision, and awful scrotes travelling on otherwise empty trains.

 

[Mrwerdna1]

The 701s don't appear to have any seat back tables, any chance of those getting retrofitted? I suppose it's not a requirement by the DfT since neither the 707s, nor 455s have them either.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 701s don't appear to have any seat back tables, any chance of those getting retrofitted? I suppose it's not a requirement by the DfT since neither the 707s, nor 455s have them either.

It's the one part of their spec I don't like. Odd decision especially as the bays have small fixed tables.

Before anyone says, "oh, but they'll only be used on inner suburban services", Reading is not inner suburban.

 

[Mrwerdna1]

It's the one part of their spec I don't like.

Same here. Yes, leg room could be better and we'll have to see about the seats, but in most ways these do appear to be an upgrade compared to the 707s and certainly the 455s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Same here. Yes, leg room could be better and we'll have to see about the seats, but in most ways these do appear to be an upgrade compared to the 707s and certainly the 455s.

I believe the seats are the same as Northern and Scotrail use (without armrests) so in relative terms an upgrade from the 707 and reasonable for suburban work.

 

[RealTrains07]

I believe the seats are the same as Northern and Scotrail use (without armrests) so in relative terms an upgrade from the 707 and reasonable for suburban work.

Not much of an upgrade in terms of seats if they are the exact same but with different padding. Could have at least put arm rests in?

comfort wise we will have to wait and see though compared to the 455s especially

 

[pompeyfan]

Personally I think it’s all relative, let’s assume you travel into London from Wokingham each day, your usual rolling stock is 10.458 with the odd 8.450 standing in.

let’s for a second assume 458s are straight off a deep clean and all the aux equipment (toilets, PA, PIS, WiFi, HVAC) all work as designed.

701s are going to be a downgrade.

now let’s assume you’re on the Cobham/Letherhead/Woking Bay line and your commute is a similar journey time, 701s are going to be a massive improvement because of the facilities they add to your commute.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not much of an upgrade in terms of seats if they are the exact same but with different padding. Could have at least put arm rests in?

comfort wise we will have to wait and see though compared to the 455s especially

Have you tried said seats? They're better than standard ironing boards.

Armrests would reduce the gangway width.

Personally I think it’s all relative, let’s assume you travel into London from Wokingham each day, your usual rolling stock is 10.458 with the odd 8.450 standing in.

let’s for a second assume 458s are straight off a deep clean and all the aux equipment (toilets, PA, PIS, WiFi, HVAC) all work as designed.

701s are going to be a downgrade.

now let’s assume you’re on the Cobham/Letherhead/Woking Bay line and your commute is a similar journey time, 701s are going to be a massive improvement because of the facilities they add to your commute.

Although one point is that the 458/5s have very few airline seats so not many pull down tables.

Overall, fully agree with your conclusions.

 

[Mrwerdna1]

Personally I think it’s all relative, let’s assume you travel into London from Wokingham each day, your usual rolling stock is 10.458 with the odd 8.450 standing in.

let’s for a second assume 458s are straight off a deep clean and all the aux equipment (toilets, PA, PIS, WiFi, HVAC) all work as designed.

701s are going to be a downgrade.

now let’s assume you’re on the Cobham/Letherhead/Woking Bay line and your commute is a similar journey time, 701s are going to be a massive improvement because of the facilities they add to your commute.

You're absolutely right, though having been on various Aventras (345s, 710s and 720s), the ride-comfort is also probably going to be better (compared to the 455s and 456s at least and possibly even the 458s).

I'm biased and would fall into your second camp, so whatever the outcome, it's most likely going to be an upgrade here, although in most cases I can avoid travelling on 455s all together and instead use a 444 or 450. On the occasions where I have been on a 455, the Grammer seats have been one of the few things I really liked (from a pure comfort/convenience point of view), which is why I'd say in most ways the 701s will probably be an upgrade here.

Still, seat back tables must cost peanuts to install, in the grand scheme of things at least. And since they have no impact on capacity or aisle space, it is a little frustrating that we don't appear to get any this time.

 

[Domh245]

And since they have no impact on capacity or aisle space, it is a little frustrating that we don't appear to get any this time.

What they do impact though is 'churn' - seatback tables slow people getting in and out of seats, and given that churn was one of the higher priorities in the suburban rolling stock design process it's not surprising to see they've not been fitted.

 

[Nogoohwell]

Agree the seat back tables would be relatively cheap to add to the spec, I suspect they would add significantly to the cleaning costs. No idea how many tables it would be, but maybe 300 seat back tables per set being cleaned twice a week, multiply by 60 sets and that is a lot of time.

Seat back tables are not much use anyway, you can never get a laptop open on them and the drinks slip and slide everywhere.

Now, cup holders, that would be a great addition.........

 

[Mrwerdna1]

What they do impact though is 'churn' - seatback tables slow people getting in and out of seats, and given that churn was one of the higher priorities in the suburban rolling stock design process it's not surprising to see they've not been fitted.

In theory, yes, there's always some sort of theoretical draw-back, but in this case I would argue that the effect is minimal (and the benefit to passengers significant enough) to justify them being fitted. Personally, I've found them to a very welcome addition on commutes lasting 30+ minutes, but that is of course entirely down to personal preference, maybe they can be done away with as far as most people are concerned.

Cleaning costs is a another good point, but there again I don't think it's fair to say they'd add that much to the bill and I feel (as with seat comfort) the DfT & TOCs these days have gone a little too far down the rabbit hole of maximising cost-savings to the detriment of passenger comfort. Of course saving costs is generally a good thing, but there have to be some limits, especially if ticket prices aren't exactly falling at the same rate.

Anyway, since I probably won't have to use 701s most of the time, I'll do just fine on the usual 444s and 450s. As for shorter trips on the 701s, when replacing 455s, they're almost certainly going to be a considerable upgrade, no doubt about it.

 

[Goldfish62]

What they do impact though is 'churn' - seatback tables slow people getting in and out of seats, and given that churn was one of the higher priorities in the suburban rolling stock design process it's not surprising to see they've not been fitted.

This was stated on this very forum as to why the 700s would *never* get seat back tables. Until they did.

 

[samuelmorris]

This was stated on this very forum as to why the 700s would *never* get seat back tables. Until they did.

But only some of them. It's not something that ever really happened in significant numbers.

 

[43096]

What they do impact though is 'churn' - seatback tables slow people getting in and out of seats, and given that churn was one of the higher priorities in the suburban rolling stock design process it's not surprising to see they've not been fitted.

But they are not just working the inner suburban services, they are also working the outer suburban Reading line where journey times are similar to the Basingstoke/Alton routes.

 

[Goldfish62]

But only some of them. It's not something that ever really happened in significant numbers.

That's right. The negotiations on the retrofitting stalled. It was only new later-build ones that came with tables.

But they are not just working the inner suburban services, they are also working the outer suburban Reading line where journey times are similar to the Basingstoke/Alton routes.

Exactly. Reading isn't and never has been inner suburban. In fact in NSE days and before it was classified as main line.

 

[Domh245]

This was stated on this very forum as to why the 700s would *never* get seat back tables. Until they did.

The decision to retrofit the tables doesn't change the fact that they negatively impact churn. It just reflects a change in position from "we must meet this churn 100% of the time at all costs" to a compromise between the need to minimise dwell times and being a train suitable for passengers from Brighton and Cambridge to London. It may be the case that the units can have seatback tables fitted without any significant impact on churn, but the other half of the compromise around passenger experience is going to be harder to justify IMO. There isn't the same sort of need for seatback tables on the main routes these serve compared to Thameslink

But they are not just working the inner suburban services, they are also working the outer suburban Reading line where journey times are similar to the Basingstoke/Alton routes.

That's probably more an argument for giving Reading some 450s than changing the spec on the 701s though, particularly as Reading is the outlier in terms of route compared to the others. In the same way the core became the defining factor on TL and the design of the 700s, Clapham (and to a lesser extent Waterloo-Wimbledon) is the defining factor on the 701s

 

[theironroad]

Agree the seat back tables would be relatively cheap to add to the spec, I suspect they would add significantly to the cleaning costs. No idea how many tables it would be, but maybe 300 seat back tables per set being cleaned twice a week, multiply by 60 sets and that is a lot of time.

Seat back tables are not much use anyway, you can never get a laptop open on them and the drinks slip and slide everywhere.

Now, cup holders, that would be a great addition.........

Seat back tables are great for tablets, especially if they have a multi-position cover/stand and want to watch something. The ones on 450s in some seats work very well.

 

[43096]

That's probably more an argument for giving Reading some 450s than changing the spec on the 701s though, particularly as Reading is the outlier in terms of route compared to the others. In the same way the core became the defining factor on TL and the design of the 700s, Clapham (and to a lesser extent Waterloo-Wimbledon) is the defining factor on the 701s

Or just keep 458s for the Reading line. Basically they have ordered something not fit for purpose for that route.

 

[RealTrains07]

Have you tried said seats? They're better than standard ironing boards.

Funnily enough I havent since the trains are not in service yet meaning nobody has travelled on them

but going from what people who have travelled on the 331s which have the same new iron board seat padding. They are not a massive improvement over the normal iron board.

Grammer seats are far more comfortable than any kind if iron board seat I have found. Time will tell really. 701s could have had seating other than iron boards though? Like other aventras

 

[PG]

The decision to retrofit the tables doesn't change the fact that they negatively impact churn.

I wonder if a halfway house could be to fit seat back tables only to window seats?

 

[norbitonflyer]

But they are not just working the inner suburban services, they are also working the outer suburban Reading line where journey times are similar to the Basingstoke/Alton routes.

Shepperton has always been "inner suburban", but journey times are comparable to Ash Vale, Micheldever, or Ascot