Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[swr444]

Cancelling the preceding Chessington service can't have helped, and I see that 1D14 (the following Dorking service) didn't run either. 2D14 (Guildford) must have been cosy! - and was nearly 20 late by Waterloo

The 0704 was cancelled due to a fault. Train was canned at Wimbledon on the down

 

[Geogregor]

The 701's introduction into service will come soon now and then the rest will be history and we need not discuss it any longer.

Actually we should discuss it much longer, even just to avoid such fiascos in the future.

I don't understand your attempt to justify the mess of class 701 introduction as something "normal", something we should be relaxed about and just chill.

With such attitude things will never improve

 

[Peter Wilde]

Actually we should discuss it much longer, even just to avoid such fiascos in the future.

I don't understand your attempt to justify the mess of class 701 introduction as something "normal", something we should be relaxed about and just chill.

With such attitude things will never improve

Agreed. Also, a thing I forgot to point out in my earlier response to Robin Proctor was the extreme level of nuisance and discomfort associated with the continued use of old, toilet-less 455s on outer suburban and semi-rural routes they should never have been deployed on. I once endured a very long trip on one, travelling (as it then should, non-stop from Surbiton to Waterloo; but this time at walking pace and via E Putney). A timetabled 45 minute journey that actually took well over two hours!

And, much more frequently, having to take such trains home after a night out in London constrains the enjoyment of a pub or eating-out evening with friends.

All very frustrating when the 90-strong answers to this problem are sitting, paid for but unused and deteriorating, in various sidings all over the UK.

 

[D365]

All very frustrating when the 90-strong answers to this problem are sitting, paid for but unused and deteriorating, in various sidings all over the UK.

They’re certainly not all sitting… but I won’t disagree with ”frustrating”.

 

[Robin Procter]

Actually we should discuss it much longer, even just to avoid such fiascos in the future.

I don't understand your attempt to justify the mess of class 701 introduction as something "normal", something we should be relaxed about and just chill.

With such attitude things will never improve

Agreed. Also, a thing I forgot to point out in my earlier response to Robin Proctor was the extreme level of nuisance and discomfort associated with the continued use of old, toilet-less 455s on outer suburban and semi-rural routes they should never have been deployed on. I once endured a very long trip on one, travelling (as it then should, non-stop from Surbiton to Waterloo; but this time at walking pace and via E Putney). A timetabled 45 minute journey that actually took well over two hours!

And, much more frequently, having to take such trains home after a night out in London constrains the enjoyment of a pub or eating-out evening with friends.

All very frustrating when the 90-strong answers to this problem are sitting, paid for but unused and deteriorating, in various sidings all over the UK.

.... The tone of some (not all) people's posts in this thread comes across as bitter and angry about the long delay in launching the 701 class into regular passenger service. The travelling 'problems' are of course very real but in my opinion there is a need to put matters in perspective and try to understand the realities of developing and completing any railway train project in the minefield of obstacles and problems to solve in this current century.

I emphasise that am not justifying the long delays but just offering the advice that those who feel hard done by and grossly inconvenienced would feel better if they took a break from complaining. Negativity breeds negativity and becomes very unhealthy. However, I have learnt a lot from this thread's discussion about the reasons for the delays.

It's a matter of perspective and understanding and respecting all sides and points of view. It goes beyond an individual traveller's attitude about how matters inconvenience themselves or their preferred lifestyle.

No-one has to agree with my attitudes towards life, so carry on.

 

[Carlisle]

Aventras are much more energy efficient,

Indeed but more power is required for ancillary equipment hence upgrades to former southern region power supplies 20 years ago for the Desiros, Electrostars etc.

 

[norbitonflyer]

.... The tone of some (not all) people's posts in this thread comes across as bitter and angry about the long delay in launching the 701 class into regular passenger service.

Not bitter or angry, just resigned and a wee bit of schadenfreude that First's Big Idea that won them them franchise proved to be built on sand. (Not that I was any fan of Stagecoach).
But then, I retired in 2019, so the fact that I did not just miss out on the new trains but would have had to stay working until 2024 to "feel the benefit" is less of a disappointment. (My first commuting was on EPBs - the 508s were just coming in!). And when I retired most SWR suburban trains were still 10-car, so I got out at a good time!

 

[DelW]

.... The tone of some (not all) people's posts in this thread comes across as bitter and angry about the long delay in launching the 701 class into regular passenger service. The travelling 'problems' are of course very real but in my opinion there is a need to put matters in perspective and try to understand the realities of developing and completing any railway train project in the minefield of obstacles and problems to solve in this current century.

To try an admittedly inexact parallel, but maybe something near ...

You ordered a new car in 2018, because your old car was becoming unreliable and uncomfortable, and the dealer promised you your new one for 2019. In 2019 the manufacturer delivered it to the dealer, but instead of handing it over to you, all clean and fresh, the dealer parked it round the back of his showroom and said, "it won't be ready for another month or two yet". Then, for the next four years, every time you rang the dealership, they said, "on no, it's not quite ready yet, but trust us, it really will be soon". But it never is ready, and in the meantime, as well as paying out every month for the new car that you don't actually have, you're paying out to keep your old banger on the road, and having to live with all its faults.

Don't you think you'd be just a little bit bitter and angry in that scenario? It's pretty close to what SWR passengers have had to put up with over the period.

 

[amazon1675]

To try an admittedly inexact parallel, but maybe something near ...

You ordered a new car in 2018, because your old car was becoming unreliable and uncomfortable, and the dealer promised you your new one for 2019. In 2019 the manufacturer delivered it to the dealer, but instead of handing it over to you, all clean and fresh, the dealer parked it round the back of his showroom and said, "it won't be ready for another month or two yet". Then, for the next four years, every time you rang the dealership, they said, "on no, it's not quite ready yet, but trust us, it really will be soon". But it never is ready, and in the meantime, as well as paying out every month for the new car that you don't actually have, you're paying out to keep your old banger on the road, and having to live with all its faults.

Don't you think you'd be just a little bit bitter and angry in that scenario? It's pretty close to what SWR passengers have had to put up with over the period.

Spot on.Now if the car maker continues to build that same model with all the faults yours had,and many other customers could not take their ones out and drive them either,just imagine ! So,you get your car to test drive,then find out the drivers seating area and space has been changed so getting in and out and operating it is much harder,what you do then? Hand it back for a refund,or lose weight to fit in? Hmmm. Then imagine the powers that be can't decide if you should open the other car doors,or the passengers should? Starting to wish you had bought a well known other German model that works as it should and everyone likes? The dealer then charges you for the time they have stored it,the factory that makes them has done such a bad job they are soon closing down...and your old banger is still being patched up and you are paying for running it,and the finance on the new one you can't have, and now don't really need or want. Hmmm

 

[Goldfish62]

Earlier this afternoon I was waiting on P1 at Richmond for my train home and a Class 701 drew in on test (didn't get the number). What really struck me was the impressive acceleration away from the station and on damp rails. A complete contrast to the pair of staggering old 455s a few minutes before it.

 

[swr444]

Earlier this afternoon I was waiting on P1 at Richmond for my train home and a Class 701 drew in on test (didn't get the number). What really struck me was the impressive acceleration away from the station and on damp rails. A complete contrast to the pair of staggering old 455s a few minutes before it.

there's been a unit on test all day on the windsor side

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Earlier this afternoon I was waiting on P1 at Richmond for my train home and a Class 701 drew in on test (didn't get the number). What really struck me was the impressive acceleration away from the station and on damp rails. A complete contrast to the pair of staggering old 455s a few minutes before it.

Yes, the acceleration of Aventras is phenomenal and will really make you actually feel like you’re going somewhere. I find any 455 journey to be such a drag with the half hearted way it tugs out of a station, even if the poor thing is doing its best.

If anything, I’ll just be glad to get rid of the tinny, metallic feel inside. Shiny metal panels and even a pronounced echo in the car. And people thought these were supposedly better refurbished than the Southern ones!

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, the acceleration of Aventras is phenomenal and will really make you actually feel like you’re going somewhere. I find any 455 journey to be such a drag with the half hearted way it tugs out of a station, even if the poor thing is doing its best.

If anything, I’ll just be glad to get rid of the tinny, metallic feel inside. Shiny metal panels and even a pronounced echo in the car. And people thought these were supposedly better refurbished than the Southern ones!

The refurb was excellent for its time, but that time has long since passed.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Yes, the acceleration of Aventras is phenomenal and will really make you actually feel like you’re going somewhere. I find any 455 journey to be such a drag with the half hearted way it tugs out of a station, even if the poor thing is doing its best.

Whilst appreciating the 701 intro. is a hot topic at present, for good reason, those of us of an older generation brought up on commuting (and working on) SUB's and EPB's felt we were in a new age when the 508's first arrived at WD, quickly followed by the 455's. They were a breath of fresh air, so have earned their stripes in my mind. Todays travelling public (enthusiasts included) seem to me to be far more expectational (is that the correct phrase?) of what they should encounter for their commute/ticket price, and thus far less tolerant of the issues the industry has to contend with in modern times, when the nature of todays technology and box ticking is beyond anything the likes of I and others could ever have imagined back in the 70's. Not trying to belittle the current 701 problems, but there are so many modern day factors involved that just were not there back in the day.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not trying to belittle the current 701 problems, but there are so many modern day factors involved that just were not there back in the day.

True enough, but I've been travelling regularly on 345s, 710s and 720s for years now. All had their issues with introduction, but the 701 problems are completely out of proportion.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

True enough, but I've been travelling regularly on 345s, 710s and 720s for years now. All had their issues with introduction, but the 701 problems are completely out of proportion.

Don't disagree at all.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, the acceleration of Aventras is phenomenal and will really make you actually feel like you’re going somewhere. I find any 455 journey to be such a drag with the half hearted way it tugs out of a station, even if the poor thing is doing its best.

They wont tighten up the schedules though so whats the point of consuming more energy

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They wont tighten up the schedules though so whats the point of consuming more energy

How bizarre, if you’re suggesting the 701s should not utilise their fast acceleration and instead pull out extra cautiously? Surely not?

Also, do you have a source to verify that no tightening of the timetable will occur when all of the full fleet have completely replaced existing suburban stock?

 

[Goldfish62]

They wont tighten up the schedules though so whats the point of consuming more energy

Why won't they tighten up the schedules to take advantage of the superior performance? It'll take time, but it happens everywhere else.

 

[markle]

Deleted

 

[Jamesrob637]

Suburban routes have not recovered to their pre-covid frequencies - e.g. there were four trains per hour from Epsom (2x Dorking, 2x Guildford), now only two; there were also four trains per hour on the Hounslow loop, now only two. Shepperton services now also skip Earlsfield at some times of the day.

The reason given for this has been one of service reliability - i.e. lack of rolling stock and lack of contingency in the timetable to recover from disruption.

I hope (and hope is the right word) that with the new rolling stock and its improved performance that they can at least restore services to their full pre-covid levels, without the same degree of concern about timetable resiliency.

A bit more for speculation and/or the Diagrams thread, but couldn't some of these routes have a higher peak frequency Tuesday to Thursday when more go into the office? Maybe using 701s, maybe not.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Yes, the acceleration of Aventras is phenomenal

Do keep in mind that according to the stats, the 701 is the slowest accelerating aventra (0.7), and the 707s which were in service a while ago did 0.85. The 450s and 444s do 1.0 for reference.

 

[Goldfish62]

Do keep in mind that according to the stats, the 701 is the slowest accelerating aventra (0.7), and the 707s which were in service a while ago did 0.85. The 450s and 444s do 1.0 for reference.

So 30% better than the 444/450 and better than the sprightly 707.

Surely only the slowest Aventra due to being exclusively 3rd rail DC.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

How bizarre, if you’re suggesting the 701s should not utilise their fast acceleration and instead pull out extra cautiously? Surely not?

Of course they will and then sit at stations with extended dwell times. Remember SWT already padded out timings years ago

Also, do you have a source to verify that no tightening of the timetable will occur when all of the full fleet have completely replaced existing suburban stock?

No source just observations of whats happened elsewhere when either new stock or changes to infrastructure are made

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No source just observations of whats happened elsewhere when either new stock or changes to infrastructure are made

Like what? LNER now run Azumas to tighter timings than the hauled stock. GWR now run IETs to much tighter timings than the HSTs. Thameslink timetable 700s through the core on tighter times than 319s worked through. Greater Anglia 720s I'm not sure about, but they're simply far more likely to make up delay time than the 317s and 321s would have now. Suggesting the 701s should be pulled out of stations cautiously to save energy is daft, and isn't actually guaranteed to definitely save energy anyway.

 

[Robin Procter]

Whilst appreciating the 701 intro. is a hot topic at present, for good reason, those of us of an older generation brought up on commuting (and working on) SUB's and EPB's felt we were in a new age when the 508's first arrived at WD, quickly followed by the 455's. They were a breath of fresh air, so have earned their stripes in my mind. Todays travelling public (enthusiasts included) seem to me to be far more expectational (is that the correct phrase?) of what they should encounter for their commute/ticket price, and thus far less tolerant of the issues the industry has to contend with in modern times, when the nature of todays technology and box ticking is beyond anything the likes of I and others could ever have imagined back in the 70's. Not trying to belittle the current 701 problems, but there are so many modern day factors involved that just were not there back in the day.

.... Hear! Hear!! This is exactly the point I have been trying to make. And it is reinforced by today's travelling public having higher expectations. Nowadays, the populace have higher expectations about everything and sometimes such expectations are unrealistic and ignore reality.

To try an admittedly inexact parallel, but maybe something near ...

You ordered a new car in 2018, because your old car was becoming unreliable and uncomfortable, and the dealer promised you your new one for 2019. In 2019 the manufacturer delivered it to the dealer, but instead of handing it over to you, all clean and fresh, the dealer parked it round the back of his showroom and said, "it won't be ready for another month or two yet". Then, for the next four years, every time you rang the dealership, they said, "on no, it's not quite ready yet, but trust us, it really will be soon". But it never is ready, and in the meantime, as well as paying out every month for the new car that you don't actually have, you're paying out to keep your old banger on the road, and having to live with all its faults.

Don't you think you'd be just a little bit bitter and angry in that scenario? It's pretty close to what SWR passengers have had to put up with over the period.

.... I understand the principle of your "admittedly inexact parallel" and I respect your reasoning but the car example is fundamentally flawed in that everything that is involved in developing and manufacturing multiple units which run on Network Rail is far more complex than with any road car. I think that Big Jumbo 74's post above explains mostly why.

As it happens, my car was built to order in Germany, was promised to take 3 months from my order date and took 6 months. Furthermore, although I was welcome to go and collect her in person when eventually ready, I then learnt that the bureaucratic red tape in getting her across the English Channel was more than just filling in pages and pages of forms but I wouldn't even be able to drive her from the port and onto British roads until further time consuming and tedious applications were completed.

So I waited for a standard delivery to my local car dealership which then suffered even more delays on British soil. I just rolled my eyes and laughed at it and got on with life without a car at the time. I still have that German car which has given me over 150k miles of smiles so far and continues to do so. Am off with her the next two days to photograph some trains. I might even see a 701.

To bring this more directly back on topic, I look forward to reading people's impressions and opinions about the new Class 701s in regular passenger service.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2023 ==

5Q40 Eastleigh-Southampton-Staines Test train tomorrow 13th (lucky for some) - I reckon it's a 701, don't you?

Realtime Trains | 5Q40 0810 Eastleigh Trsmd to Staines Up Loop | 13/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q40 0810 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Staines Up Loop on 13/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There are a couple of other 5Q-- headcodes which strongly suggest 701s on test via Eastleigh tomorrow too.

 

[Goldfish62]

Like what? LNER now run Azumas to tighter timings than the hauled stock. GWR now run IETs to much tighter timings than the HSTs. Thameslink timetable 700s through the core on tighter times than 319s worked through. Greater Anglia 720s I'm not sure about, but they're simply far more likely to make up delay time than the 317s and 321s would have now. Suggesting the 701s should be pulled out of stations cautiously to save energy is daft, and isn't actually guaranteed to definitely save energy anyway.

Added to that, GWR added in extra time on the North Downs line in anticipation of the sluggish 369s being introduced. Now that 165s are being retained that extra time has been removed.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Like what? LNER now run Azumas to tighter timings than the hauled stock. GWR now run IETs to much tighter timings than the HSTs. Thameslink timetable 700s through the core on tighter times than 319s worked through. Greater Anglia 720s I'm not sure about, but they're simply far more likely to make up delay time than the 317s and 321s would have now. Suggesting the 701s should be pulled out of stations cautiously to save energy is daft, and isn't actually guaranteed to definitely save energy anyway.

I wonder if there was more incentive to pack the trains in pre Covid in the other cases you mention ?. Now it is a case of increasing the number and length of trains first before needing to speed things up. Also not speeding them up now does not mean that speeding up cannot happen later when need and confidence allows. Of course there is no point out accelerating the train in front. Will have to wait until the old stock has all gone. But the 701s could, in the mean time, possibly accelerate harder if they have been left behind by the train in front due to a delay (which might be what happens with the 720s).

As for the terrible pace of introduction I do think trains like a lot of vehicles are getting far too complicated these days - that means more to go wrong. Covid will not have helped of course and I think it is very likely Bombardier bit off more than they could chew - now its Alstom's turn to choke.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Like what? LNER now run Azumas to tighter timings than the hauled stock. GWR now run IETs to much tighter timings than the HSTs. Thameslink timetable 700s through the core on tighter times than 319s worked through. Greater Anglia 720s I'm not sure about, but they're simply far more likely to make up delay time than the 317s and 321s would have now. Suggesting the 701s should be pulled out of stations cautiously to save energy is daft, and isn't actually guaranteed to definitely save energy anyway.

Never said they should be driven conservatively ive said that its unlikely we will see the schedules tightened to reflect their better capability.

Separately Thameslink is now a completely reengineered railway compared to what the 319's had to run on and the pre 2018 TT contained additional pathing time to cover the transit over the two track railway section. Anyhow will concede that the SRT from St.Pancras to Bedford is 5m faster than the 2010 but South of the river there has been no improvement. On LNER the fast service to York used to scheduled 1h42 but that was eased out to 1h50 and has been improved to 1h47 hardly stellar over 174miles.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

So 30% better than the 444/450 and better than the sprightly 707.

Surely only the slowest Aventra due to being exclusively 3rd rail DC.

Read it again, lower numbers is slower, therefore the 701 is a downgrade from the 707 and the 444/450