Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Warrior2852]

Are you serious? You know how faster it gets to 50 mph (which is the average maximum speed between 2 stations on rounders) compared to the other stock? (Not mentioning the braking capability that could allow you to hit platform much faster that you would normally hence save good few seconds).

Why on earth would you hit the platform faster when you’ve made the time up through acceleration? No need to surely? Don’t want to leave yourself too much to do when coming to a stand.....

I agree with the latter of these. Surely hitting the platform at a higher speed would make braking more stressful as it gives you less room for error and a higher likelihood of overshooting the platform. You definitely wouldn't want this on a bay platform.

 

[theking]

Surely it's a moot point saying the 707 are better to drive.

Obviously with the modern technology they will be better than the older stock that swr drivers drive.

But from musings on here it is an inferior unit to most other modern rolling stock.

 

[8J]

I don't find the 707s better to drive personally. I find you aren't actually in control like you are on the older stuff, it is overcomplicated and the brakes aren't that great.

It's down to personal opinion in all honesty.

 

[James0804]

Deleted

 

[samuelmorris]

Good enough for what we need I think (the images) - they really are basically just 700s in Bombardier format rather than Siemens aren't they. Even the colour scheme is almost the same!

 

[43096]

No surprise with that, at all. A massive downgrade to ironing boards - and no tables - for the Reading line, from the current 450s and 458s.

If Alton - at 75mins or so from Waterloo - retains 450s/outer-suburban stock why not Reading (80mins)?

 

[samuelmorris]

No surprise with that, at all. A massive downgrade to ironing boards - and no tables - for the Reading line, from the current 450s and 458s.

If Alton - at 75mins or so from Waterloo - retains 450s/outer-suburban stock why not Reading (80mins)?

I'm not really sure SWR consider 701s inferior to 450s. Apart from seating quality, what's different? 2+2 seating will be seen as an upgrade (even if not in terms of seat availability) and I don't recall 450s having many tables to begin with.

 

[43096]

I'm not really sure SWR consider 701s inferior to 450s. Apart from seating quality, what's different? 2+2 seating will be seen as an upgrade (even if not in terms of seat availability) and I don't recall 450s having many tables to begin with.

SWR probably don't, but that's no surprise. The 450s have seat-back tables in airline seats, which it appears the 701s don't. I'll wager that the ironing boards on the 701s will lack any sort of extra padding and will therefore be massively inferior to the 450s and even more inferior to the 458s.

 

[samuelmorris]

That's a given I feel, but as disappointing as that is, it might be a bit early to let another thread descend into complaints about seats!

 

[LUYMun]

In the 90s, ADTranz (now Bombardier) recreated a 4Cig unit in a Electrostar-style body, keeping the controls and electrics the exact. It would've costed 3/4 of the price from a new-build and estimated a life time of 15 more years. This was called the 'Networker Classic' project, also known as the Class 424. Unfortunately the newly-privatised companies ordered new-builds so the idea never really took off.

If I were SWR, or a new TOC, I'd rebuilt some Class 455/456s and create them into five car trains, using the same method what ADTranz did.

I know there's a topic on this, but it's too old to discuss more on it.

 

[Ethano92]

Got the 'Britain's New Trains' magazine today which includes the interior photos of the class 701. Sorry they are not of the best quality.


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Great to finally see a picture but it's definitely all that I expected. What I do appreciate is their effort to provide plenty of places to hold on to around the doors, this is certainly a problem on 700s with a very large lobby but only a central pole to hold on to. Still, I think the 345/710 and 378s have the best provisions for standing passengers but of course they have longitudinal seating.

What I don't appreciate is:
1)Lack of buttons on the door themselves which TFL rectified on the 710s after realising how far back the buttons on the panels are when standing in the centre of the doors.

2) might not be shown but I'd expect luggage racks and bins in those huge areas by the doors, they almost look quite strange since they're not pockets for sliding doors. Currently 455s have very comfortable ledges to lean on which I prefer to sitting down when it's busy so I can get off faster, shame there deaont appear to be anything similar on here

3)for a train with WiFi and plug sockets, why are tables too much to ask for honestly

 

[superalbs]

Looks like a 700, but one that will probably fall apart a bit more often.

 

[Goldfish62]

That's a given I feel, but as disappointing as that is, it might be a bit early to let another thread descend into complaints about seats!

Why not? UK train seats are inferior due to DfT imposed standards so why shouldn't we complain about them? Otherwise we are accepting mediocrity.

 

[samuelmorris]

Why not? UK train seats are inferior due to DfT imposed standards so why shouldn't we complain about them? Otherwise we are accepting mediocrity.

On commuter units I'm not so sure. I'll reserve judgement on that comment until I've tried the seating in 720s and 745/755s. They may not be used in inter-city trains (still seems a bit of a cop out why not) but they promise to be better designs than the ironing board, so we'll see. They're not great seats but they'll be largely tolerable for the journey lengths these units will cover. I've done 65 mins on a 700 and it wasn't that bad, the main issue with the former is legroom intrusion and the 701s should be much improved for that. The reason seating is such a hot potato in the 800 threads is because the seating really is woefully inadequate for journeys of several hours. Frankly I find the standard-fare ironing boards less uncomfortable and they'll be used on journeys that are mostly less than an hour. It's disappointing they couldn't do better but I don't think it's the disaster that the 800 seating is. Opening up the continuous stream of dissatisfaction about their use this far in advance of service seems unnecessary. It's not as if us complaining about it will change SWR's mind at this stage.

Honestly the biggest disappointment I have about the 701s (a unit I may potentially use on a semi-regular basis in the future so I do have an interest in this one) from that render is just how dull they look. This looks to be the first Aventra interior that's as sterile as that on the 700, possibly even moreso. They could have done a little better with the colour scheme, even if just darkening the side & ceiling panels like TfL did with the 345.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the 90s, ADTranz (now Bombardier) recreated a 4Cig unit in a Electrostar-style body, keeping the controls and electrics the exact. It would've costed 3/4 of the price from a new-build and estimated a life time of 15 more years. This was called the 'Networker Classic' project, also known as the Class 424. Unfortunately the newly-privatised companies ordered new-builds so the idea never really took off.

ITYM fortunately. What we got - a completely new fleet - was much better than that cheap and nasty bodge-job.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'd have liked to see what they were like, but we all know what happened the last time a stopgap with a 15-year life expectancy was introduced. Even the 455s have been retractioned now. I imagine an Electrostar body with Mk1 running gear would very quickly have become unfavourable both from a reliability and a ride quality standpoint by the late 2000s when compared to the units used by neighbouring TOCs. I don't think there's any doubt the new fleets were the right decision in the end, but in the early days of the 458s I can certainly see why people might have had second thoughts.

 

[urpert]

I'd have liked to see what they were like, but we all know what happened the last time a stopgap with a 15-year life expectancy was introduced. Even the 455s have been retractioned now. I imagine an Electrostar body with Mk1 running gear would very quickly have become unfavourable both from a reliability and a ride quality standpoint by the late 2000s when compared to the units used by neighbouring TOCs. I don't think there's any doubt the new fleets were the right decision in the end, but in the early days of the 458s I can certainly see why people might have had second thoughts.

IIRC that was aimed squarely at Connex South Central which was only a 7 year franchise originally (as opposed to 15 for South Eastern) with no specific provision for Mk1 replacement. Connex ordered a few Electrostars for South Eastern and the rest is history.

 

[Monty]

In the 90s, ADTranz (now Bombardier) recreated a 4Cig unit in a Electrostar-style body, keeping the controls and electrics the exact. It would've costed 3/4 of the price from a new-build and estimated a life time of 15 more years. This was called the 'Networker Classic' project, also known as the Class 424. Unfortunately the newly-privatised companies ordered new-builds so the idea never really took off.

If I were SWR, or a new TOC, I'd rebuilt some Class 455/456s and create them into five car trains, using the same method what ADTranz did.

I know there's a topic on this, but it's too old to discuss more on it.
View attachment 56651

This type of project is now impossible, as it used the existing vehicles frames, 455s don't have frames and everything is attached to the coach body itself.

 

[samuelmorris]

IIRC that was aimed squarely at Connex South Central which was only a 7 year franchise originally (as opposed to 15 for South Eastern) with no specific provision for Mk1 replacement. Connex ordered a few Electrostars for South Eastern and the rest is history.

Fair enough, that makes more sense in the climate of trying to force Connex to oust the Mk1s...

 

[Bletchleyite]

This type of project is now impossible, as it used the existing vehicles frames, 455s don't have frames and everything is attached to the coach body itself.

Though I suppose in one sense the Class 230 is similar, just reusing the body as it isn't (unlike Mk1s) the body that is the issue.

 

[Warrior2852]

Got the 'Britain's New Trains' magazine today which includes the interior photos of the class 701. Sorry they are not of the best quality.


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These look really interesting, I have been after something like this for a while. I do agree with other comments here that this appears to be the Bombadier equivalent if the 700s though, it is a shame about the ironing board seats though. Regarding the comments about tables, we do have to remember this is a metro commuter train, and those are the lines it will serve - all the metro trains at the moment (455, 456 and 707) don't have tables either.

 

[Goldfish62]

These look really interesting, I have been after something like this for a while. I do agree with other comments here that this appears to be the Bombadier equivalent if the 700s though, it is a shame about the ironing board seats though. Regarding the comments about tables, we do have to remember this is a metro commuter train, and those are the lines it will serve - all the metro trains at the moment (455, 456 and 707) don't have tables either.

But the 450s and 458s which have a large presence on the Windsor Lines do. In any case the 455s and 456s don't have aircon or toilets so why not add in the benefit of tables as well? Greater Anglia initially proposed ironing boards without tables on their Aventras, but changed to better seats with tables. The 321s and 360s don't have tables.

 

[43096]

Regarding the comments about tables, we do have to remember this is a metro commuter train, and those are the lines it will serve - all the metro trains at the moment (455, 456 and 707) don't have tables either.

The Reading line is not "metro" though - it's outer-suburban. The 701s look like being a massive downgrade from the 458s.

 

[Goldfish62]

The Reading line is not "metro" though - it's outer-suburban. The 701s look like being a massive downgrade from the 458s.

I prefer airline seating for my commute. The only benefit I can see for me is that the 701 has predominantly airline seating whereas the 458s in their reconfigured form have hardly any.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the 450s and 458s which have a large presence on the Windsor Lines do. In any case the 455s and 456s don't have aircon or toilets so why not add in the benefit of tables as well? Greater Anglia initially proposed ironing boards without tables on their Aventras, but changed to better seats with tables. The 321s and 360s don't have tables.

I agree they should all have seat back tables like the 450s do. Just about every commuter these days wants to put down their coffee and play with their phone. The length of the journey does not affect this.

 

[dctraindriver]

No surprise with that, at all. A massive downgrade to ironing boards - and no tables - for the Reading line, from the current 450s and 458s.

If Alton - at 75mins or so from Waterloo - retains 450s/outer-suburban stock why not Reading (80mins)?

8 cars, thus less capacity. They modded the line for 10 car 458 but maybe not enough juice on the rail to take 12 car 450 plus platforms not long enough....

 

[Monty]

Though I suppose in one sense the Class 230 is similar, just reusing the body as it isn't (unlike Mk1s) the body that is the issue.

True, but the 230s are basically reusing an existing train and modifying it (albeit heavily), with the 'Networker Classic' it was essentially a new train on an old under frame (ironically the SR and BR(S) did this a lot of with old coach and EMU frames).

8 cars, thus less capacity. They modded the line for 10 car 458 but maybe not enough juice on the rail to take 12 car 450 plus platforms not long enough....

The power supply for the Reading road had to be upgraded to cope with regular 10 car operation, a real missed opportunity not to go for 12 car when they rebuilt the infrastructure. Silly thing is in less than a decade the line will be need to upgraded again just to keep up with demand.

 

[LUYMun]

8 cars, thus less capacity. They modded the line for 10 car 458 but maybe not enough juice on the rail to take 12 car 450 plus platforms not long enough....

Is a 458 coach longer than a 450 coach?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is a 458 coach longer than a 450 coach?

No, but the units as they are only come in multiples of 4 coaches, so 10 car is not an option, you can do 8 or 12.

 

[Ethano92]

I agree they should all have seat back tables like the 450s do. Just about every commuter these days wants to put down their coffee and play with their phone. The length of the journey does not affect this.

I agree with this. Whether you're going 10 minutes down to Earlsfield or an hour down to shepperton it's good to have a seat back table. I understand not having tables in the seats of 4 facing each other as this would slow down people getting off.

Do we know if/when the timetable will be changed to make use of the better acceleration of these trains (at least better than the 455s, 707s are probably the same) will we see a substantial decrease in journey times?