GWR Class 800

[bastien]

Unlikely. Government vanity and publicity hype would make that a non-option. Again, they could have done precisely that with IET, but they didn't.

But there wouldn't have been any Govt. vanity, because it wasn't their idea! They could just blame old Rodger, and vow never to listen to so-called experts again.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Roger's argument was mainly about the ECML IC225 replacement, which has nothing to do with cancelled electrification.
The IEPs were ordered in several tranches, but the last DfT order, for 42 electric 801s to replace IC225s, denied an open competition by the franchise winner.
Pendolinos weren't the only option, Siemens and Bombardier would have bid too.
It was just used as a UK-adapted example of a straight 140mph EMU design.

 

[ainsworth74]

Which is exactly what the situation was with IEP anyway, wasn't it?!

Yes but of course the IET design was intended to be able to do that (it is worth recalling that bi-modes are designed to be converted to pure EMU's should there be a need in future) whilst the Pendolino wasn't so it would be a rather more complex engineering and certification challenge than just swapping a load of EMU IET order to bi-mode IETs.

 

[rftorf]

Currently on the 16.45 to Cardiff from Paddington class 800. Just fired up its engines at Reading. Interesting, on the same unit this morning and pan up at Didcot. 800 028.

 

[FGW_DID]

Currently on the 16.45 to Cardiff from Paddington class 800. Just fired up its engines at Reading. Interesting, on the same unit this morning and pan up at Didcot. 800 028.

IETs are running diesel vice electric on the down between Reading & Didcot, something to do with a misbehaving axle counter.

 

[rftorf]

Ah, I did hear something about that a while back. I thought it had been sorted. Obviously not. Thanks.

 

[Melancholia]

IETs are running diesel vice electric on the down between Reading & Didcot, something to do with a misbehaving axle counter.

It was fine today morning, when I took 1B05 0712 Reading - Swansea, switched over to diesel at Moreton Cutting. I presume this issue arose during the day?

 

[Mag_seven]

Ah, I did hear something about that a while back. I thought it had been sorted. Obviously not. Thanks.

I think that that was a separate issue at Sonning Cutting.

 

[JN114]

It was fine today morning, when I took 1B05 0712 Reading - Swansea, switched over to diesel at Moreton Cutting. I presume this issue arose during the day?

An Axle counter section on the Down Main at Cholsey failed after the passage of an electric-mode IET around lunch time. It was reset successfully by the signalman and worked correctly until the next electric-mode IET when it failed again. The signalman only gets 2 resets in a 24h period so the decision was taken to run IETs on Diesel over the section until further notice; changing over at Reading.

 

[rftorf]

Thanks for the explanation, I did wonder why the switch over happened at Reading this evening.

 

[The Ham]

Roger's argument was mainly about the ECML IC225 replacement, which has nothing to do with cancelled electrification.
The IEPs were ordered in several tranches, but the last DfT order, for 42 electric 801s to replace IC225s, denied an open competition by the franchise winner.
Pendolinos weren't the only option, Siemens and Bombardier would have bid too.
It was just used as a UK-adapted example of a straight 140mph EMU design.

That wasn't how it was portrayed on here by those opposed to the 80x's, there was definitely a LOT of talk of diesel drags from Oxford as it was said to be cheaper to buy a load of locos as well as new trains to run those services rather than buy 80x's.

 

[MizzyMoo]

It's important to remember that the HSTs have 23m coaches compared to the 80x's which have 26m coaches - not as nice as it could be but introduces more flexibility to the GWR network.

No it isn't, the original point was about providing 3 and a half standard class cars in place of full 6 and a half standard car trains, in other words removing 60m of useable train length (accounting for your very important 3m longer cars).

GWR can not afford to trade capacity for 'more flexibility', whatever that means?

 

[Oscar46016]

not sure if anyone can help - I've seen most of the 800's through Cardiff over the last couple of weeks - bar 1-4 ( are they engaged on something else? ).

 

[BahrainLad]

Leaving St Pancras this afternoon on the 1409 to Margate (I think, I was only going to Stratford) I noticed a GWR 2 x 5-car formation at a standstill on the curve line between the ECML and NLL, presumably this was delivery of a new pair of sets?

 

[jyte]

These sodding axel counters hahaha...

 

[D365]

These sodding axel counters hahaha...

Harold Faltermeyer approves!

 

[jyte]

Harold Faltermeyer approves!

What's it called when you have a Freudian Slip but mostly because you're incapable of using the english language properly?

 

[D365]

Don't worry that was rather a pointless comment from me!. I was going to say, axle counters are a necessary evil.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

not sure if anyone can help - I've seen most of the 800's through Cardiff over the last couple of weeks - bar 1-4 ( are they engaged on something else? ).

800 001 to 800 004 are still being used for tests and are not yet fully fitted out internally.

 

[swt_passenger]

No it isn't, the original point was about providing 3 and a half standard class cars in place of full 6 and a half standard car trains, in other words removing 60m of useable train length (accounting for your very important 3m longer cars).

I think that discussion must have completely ignored the possibility of 9 and 10 car running. The overall number of IEP vehicles is more than the overall number of HST vehicles.

 

[59CosG95]

Spotted 800033, all greened up, at North Pole yesterday, along with a transfer-free 800302. 034 still seems to be at Donny Carr. I'm assuming 035, 036 & 007 haven't yet left Newton Aycliffe?

 

[TwistedMentat]

Anyone know if GWR are planning to drop the yellow front end? As it seems the other 800 operators are taking advantage of not needing to have them anymore.

 

[Domh245]

Anyone know if GWR are planning to drop the yellow front end? As it seems the other 800 operators are taking advantage of not needing to have them anymore.

Doubt it very much seeing as all of the promotional material so far, as well as the trains delivered have had them. Possibly the next franchise might drop them, but GWR won't

 

[800001]

Spotted 800033, all greened up, at North Pole yesterday, along with a transfer-free 800302. 034 still seems to be at Donny Carr. I'm assuming 035, 036 & 007 haven't yet left Newton Aycliffe?

800035 is currently at Doncaster Depot being prepared for service.

800007 and 800036 are outside in the Yard at Hitachi Newton Aycliffe under going testing.

 

[59CosG95]

800035 is currently at Doncaster Depot being prepared for service.

800007 and 800036 are outside in the Yard at Hitachi Newton Aycliffe under going testing.

Ah, thanks for the update. Not being from that part of the world it's hard to keep track!

 

[MizzyMoo]

I think that discussion must have completely ignored the possibility of 9 and 10 car running. The overall number of IEP vehicles is more than the overall number of HST vehicles.

Again, that's not actually relevant.

Currently, 8 car HSTs are partially replaced with 2x5 car IETs (busiest ones put back to HSTs), but with 1 x 5 car set locked out of use south of B.T.Meads, and towed along behind for 'ballast' through short platforms.

So yes the whole train is actually longer than it used to be, but the useable length (in standard class) has reduced by 60m. Where the 8 car HSTs run with all seats and vestibules full, that's not good news.

SDO on the 8 car sets has worked fine for ever, so SDO on a 9 or 10 car set would be an obvious solution, if only there was some indication that that was the intent going forward?

 

[Typhoon_93]

Aycliffe update:-

800007 on test in yard.
800036 on test in yard.
800304 on test in yard.
800305 on test in yard.
800306 on test in test shed.
800307 moving into test shed from production.
800308-310 in production.
800313-314 in production.
800315 being delivered (shells)

Hope that helps.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Again, that's not actually relevant.

Currently, 8 car HSTs are partially replaced with 2x5 car IETs (busiest ones put back to HSTs), but with 1 x 5 car set locked out of use south of B.T.Meads, and towed along behind for 'ballast' through short platforms.

So yes the whole train is actually longer than it used to be, but the useable length (in standard class) has reduced by 60m. Where the 8 car HSTs run with all seats and vestibules full, that's not good news.

SDO on the 8 car sets has worked fine for ever, so SDO on a 9 or 10 car set would be an obvious solution, if only there was some indication that that was the intent going forward?

It was the intention on 10 cars to do so from the start as all the 5 cars are so fitted. But the software hasn't worked properly and going "ctrl-alt-delete" after split/join doesn't do your station dwell times much good, especially if you have to do it more than once, twice, etc. Hitachi have been working on a software mod so it can be done as originally envisaged.

The 9 cars will also be fitted with SDO from new.

 

[JN114]

SDO on the 8 car sets has worked fine for ever, so SDO on a 9 or 10 car set would be an obvious solution, if only there was some indication that that was the intent going forward?

Strictly, SDO has only been in use since 2007, at the latest HST refurbishment. Before then all doors were released at stations regardless of platform length. But that’s not compatible with today’s safety conscious railway.

IETs are using SDO - and unlike many other stocks it works on an individual door level rather than front/rear X coaches. The issue is the majority of stations between Bristol and Taunton can’t accommodate much more than a 5 car; and without walk-through between units you can end up with passengers “trapped” in the rear 5 coaches for several consecutive stations. That is not an ideal scenario; and so for the time being, only 5 cars are in use West of Bristol TM. The reason the 2nd set is still dragged to Weston/Taunton is simply one of staff availability. GWR struggle to provide drivers for the passenger services as it is - it is better to prioritise that; and take the efficiency hit from dragging a dead 5 car around; than use such a scarce resource on extra ECS services to Stoke Gifford. Besides which these aren’t the final diagrams. I don’t know how train planning have arrived at what we have at the moment, but I suspect capacity in/out of London on high peak trains has been the priority - it’s just unfortunate coincidence that sees those same trains being the ones through to/from destinations west of Bristol. I expect we will see 9 cars put onto some of these services once they start running - Clarence Yard is somewhat closer to that particular coal-face, perhaps he would like to wade in and confirm.

The driver issues are frustrating; but the first unit wasn’t handed over to GWR until September 2017 - training was due to start in May 2017. 5 months on GWR finally have roughly the number of drivers trained they originally wanted trained up before introduction. But with the HST and 180 cascade dates cast in stone, they’ve had no option in the meantime but to push as many units into service as possible. This is despite an “incident” that has rendered the Bristol training academy out of action for the time being.

The 5 and 5 locked out of use due to no TE is even more infuriating. It’s a highly political subject that I really don’t want to get into, but - The problems are generally that TEs don’t fall under the same rostering arrangements as other traincrew, which makes it more difficult for them to work evening and weekend trains compared to say, Train Managers and Customer Hosts. (Through no fault of their own I should add - and they have been remarkably flexible in helping out thus far) They’re also working under the direction of the revenue management team, not control, which makes them difficult to contact when things go wrong, or diagrams change, or they don’t show up due to whatever, etc... A solution to this problem has been put to the unions - who by all accounts seem quite interested - and should hopefully be implemented in the coming months. It should pretty much put an end to 5 and 5 locked out of use, and give new-found job security to a grade previously perceived to be under threat with the new trains.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. But honestly there’s probably a good couple more months of the current pain still to get through first.

Every week more drivers are being passed out. The 9 car units are coming soon. The TE “problem” will go away. There’s even a rumour they’re going to make efforts to improve the seats! It’s not been the easiest new train introduction - but none of them ever are!

 

[D1009]

Strictly, SDO has only been in use since 2007, at the latest HST refurbishment. Before then all doors were released at stations regardless of platform length. But that’s not compatible with today’s safety conscious railway.

IETs are using SDO - and unlike many other stocks it works on an individual door level rather than front/rear X coaches. The issue is the majority of stations between Bristol and Taunton can’t accommodate much more than a 5 car; and without walk-through between units you can end up with passengers “trapped” in the rear 5 coaches for several consecutive stations. That is not an ideal scenario; and so for the time being, only 5 cars are in use West of Bristol TM. The reason the 2nd set is still dragged to Weston/Taunton is simply one of staff availability. GWR struggle to provide drivers for the passenger services as it is - it is better to prioritise that; and take the efficiency hit from dragging a dead 5 car around; than use such a scarce resource on extra ECS services to Stoke Gifford. Besides which these aren’t the final diagrams. I don’t know how train planning have arrived at what we have at the moment, but I suspect capacity in/out of London on high peak trains has been the priority - it’s just unfortunate coincidence that sees those same trains being the ones through to/from destinations west of Bristol. I expect we will see 9 cars put onto some of these services once they start running - Clarence Yard is somewhat closer to that particular coal-face, perhaps he would like to wade in and confirm.

The driver issues are frustrating; but the first unit wasn’t handed over to GWR until September 2017 - training was due to start in May 2017. 5 months on GWR finally have roughly the number of drivers trained they originally wanted trained up before introduction. But with the HST and 180 cascade dates cast in stone, they’ve had no option in the meantime but to push as many units into service as possible. This is despite an “incident” that has rendered the Bristol training academy out of action for the time being.

The 5 and 5 locked out of use due to no TE is even more infuriating. It’s a highly political subject that I really don’t want to get into, but - The problems are generally that TEs don’t fall under the same rostering arrangements as other traincrew, which makes it more difficult for them to work evening and weekend trains compared to say, Train Managers and Customer Hosts. (Through no fault of their own I should add - and they have been remarkably flexible in helping out thus far) They’re also working under the direction of the revenue management team, not control, which makes them difficult to contact when things go wrong, or diagrams change, or they don’t show up due to whatever, etc... A solution to this problem has been put to the unions - who by all accounts seem quite interested - and should hopefully be implemented in the coming months. It should pretty much put an end to 5 and 5 locked out of use, and give new-found job security to a grade previously perceived to be under threat with the new trains.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. But honestly there’s probably a good couple more months of the current pain still to get through first.

Every week more drivers are being passed out. The 9 car units are coming soon. The TE “problem” will go away. There’s even a rumour they’re going to make efforts to improve the seats! It’s not been the easiest new train introduction - but none of them ever are!

A most informative post, though I'm intrigued as to what "incident" could put a training academy out of action!