Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Aspen90]

The latest edition of ‘Todays Railways’ has an interview with EMR Fleet Director.
He states:-

T1 - Old Dalby testing
T2 - Two cars sent to Pistoia, Italy for climate chamber testing.
T3, T4, T5 complete at Aycliffe and in test.
T6-T11 in assembly
T13 - in paint
T16 - at weld stage
No mention of T12.

First production units expected to be delivered in Quarter 2 of 2024 with final delivery Q2 of 2025.

Service introduction early 2025 with all in service December 2025.

Thanks for the update!

 

[QSK19]

One thing I’ve learned about EMR is to take timeframes for things with a pinch of salt - there have been so many delays (whether due to EMR or something out of their control) that I wouldn’t believe any timings until we see them in the flesh.

Also, I can foresee one falsehood being made when one pulls into STP for the first time: they’re the first AT300s to serve there (which, in reality, they’re not because HT divert there).

 

[800001]

One thing I’ve learned about EMR is to take timeframes for things with a pinch of salt - there have been so many delays (whether due to EMR or something out of their control) that I wouldn’t believe any timings until we see them in the flesh.

Also, I can foresee one falsehood being made when one pulls into STP for the first time: they’re the first AT300s to serve there (which, in reality, they’re not because HT divert there).

A lot of the delays with the 810 are purely and simply down to Hitachi, who seem unable to give specific dates for milestones.

Over 2 years late for fleet introduction, how can EMR even plan, when says change all the time.

 

[QSK19]

Over 2 years late for fleet introduction, how can EMR even plan, when says change all the time.

Correct. I wasn’t pinning the blame on EMR - I was simply saying that forecasted timeframes, for whatever reason, have generally been inaccurate up to now; so not to believe 100% that things will work out to plan.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The latest edition of ‘Todays Railways’ has an interview with EMR Fleet Director.
He states:-

T1 - Old Dalby testing
T2 - Two cars sent to Pistoia, Italy for climate chamber testing.
T3, T4, T5 complete at Aycliffe and in test.
T6-T11 in assembly
T13 - in paint
T16 - at weld stage
No mention of T12.

First production units expected to be delivered in Quarter 2 of 2024 with final delivery Q2 of 2025.

Service introduction early 2025 with all in service December 2025.

Its really about time somebody in the industry got a grip of new train testing, commissioning and training timescales its got beyond ridiculous. This is costing a lot of money as well keeping off stock that ought to allow increased revenue generation which is what the industry desperately needs.

 

[QSK19]

It’s really about time somebody in the industry got a grip of new train testing, commissioning and training timescales its got beyond ridiculous. This is costing a lot of money as well keeping off stock that ought to allow increased revenue generation which is what the industry desperately needs.

Hear, hear. If it’s true that the whole fleet will be in service by December 2025, the first build 810s will be nearly 5 years old!

 

[JonathanH]

Its really about time somebody in the industry got a grip of new train testing, commissioning and training timescales its got beyond ridiculous. This is costing a lot of money as well keeping off stock that ought to allow increased revenue generation which is what the industry desperately needs.

Isn't it a safety matter? If it could be done quicker, why wouldn't it be? As you say, the process costs money.

 

[Mzzzs]

It seems that hitachi are taking a long time only a handful of trains made seems like shocking progress made
Hopefully the contract includes some compensation for EMR for the delay

 

[800001]

Hear, hear. If it’s true that the whole fleet will be in service by December 2025, the first build 810s will be nearly 5 years old!

How will they be nearly 5 years old? The first carriage of 810001 was seen in Sept 2022 so that would make it 3 years old by 2025.

It seems that hitachi are taking a long time only a handful of trains made seems like shocking progress made
Hopefully the contract includes some compensation for EMR for the delay

Only a handful?
They are nearly half way through production of the 35 sets.

 

[QSK19]

How will they be nearly 5 years old? The first carriage of 810001 was seen in Sept 2022 so that would make it 3 years old by 2025.

Construction started in early 2021; so doing simple maths works out to just short of 5 years come December 2025. I suppose it depends when you measure age from, whether it’s from the first bolt or the finished article.

 

[Snow1964]

One thing I’ve learned about EMR is to take timeframes for things with a pinch of salt - there have been so many delays (whether due to EMR or something out of their control) that I wouldn’t believe any timings until we see them in the flesh.

bit more than pinch of salt, EMRs own news webpage has first ones in service by end 2022. So already about 400 days late, and if first one in service is early 2025 as posts above suggesting, will be nearer 750 days late.

Abellio invests £400 million in new trains for East Midlands Railway | EMR

Abellio UK, recently awarded the new eight-year EMR franchise by the Department for Transport, has awarded a £400 million contract to Hitachi Rail to build a pioneering new fleet of intercity trains.

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

However one thing we do know from this press release is when they do enter service they will have consistent seven day catering in both First and standard class. Unless that is also Fiction

 

[Aspen90]

bit more than pinch of salt, EMRs own news webpage has first ones in service by end 2022. So already about 400 days late, and if first one in service is early 2025 as posts above suggesting, will be nearer 750 days late.

Abellio invests £400 million in new trains for East Midlands Railway | EMR

Abellio UK, recently awarded the new eight-year EMR franchise by the Department for Transport, has awarded a £400 million contract to Hitachi Rail to build a pioneering new fleet of intercity trains.

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

However one thing we do know from this press release is when they do enter service they will have consistent seven day catering in both First and standard class. Unless that is also Fiction

I wouldn’t get your hopes up - the DfT have since had their claws all over it. They wanted the WiFi removing and even said the current Aurora seat design and cabin interior is too expensive and want to reduce the cost of it. The galley is tiny, nothing like the 222, and doesn’t have ovens, and the dishwasher was at risk last I heard which tells me paper cups and plates for the long term. MD says the first class offering is correct for the journey length of just over 2hrs from Sheffield to STP. The first class offering is embarrassing especially when you have to pay £1.50 for a small can of coke!

 

[Killingworth]

I wouldn’t get your hopes up - the DfT have since had their claws all over it. They wanted the WiFi removing and even said the current Aurora seat design and cabin interior is too expensive and want to reduce the cost of it. The galley is tiny, nothing like the 222, and doesn’t have ovens, and the dishwasher was at risk last I heard which tells me paper cups and plates for the long term. MD says the first class offering is correct for the journey length of just over 2hrs from Sheffield to STP. The first class offering is embarrassing especially when you have to pay £1.50 for a small can of coke!

But they wiill have wifi and mobile signals will be better received as the Faraday cage effect of current stock should be eliminated, hopefully.

 

[WesternLancer]

I wouldn’t get your hopes up - the DfT have since had their claws all over it. They wanted the WiFi removing and even said the current Aurora seat design and cabin interior is too expensive and want to reduce the cost of it. The galley is tiny, nothing like the 222, and doesn’t have ovens, and the dishwasher was at risk last I heard which tells me paper cups and plates for the long term. MD says the first class offering is correct for the journey length of just over 2hrs from Sheffield to STP. The first class offering is embarrassing especially when you have to pay £1.50 for a small can of coke!

This is all very depressing to read.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Wouldn't surprise me if the DfT strips back and back further then the 810s probably will end up being very similiar to SWR's 444s, no buffet, replaced with trolley service if you're lucky to get one also "standard plus" labelled as first class - better buy that Costa takeaway before boarding the train!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Wouldn't surprise me if the DfT strips back and back further then the 810s probably will end up being very similiar to SWR's 444s, no buffet, replaced with trolley service if you're lucky to get one also "standard plus" labelled as first class - better buy that Costa takeaway before boarding the train!

Trolley service is more than adequate, Sheffield is two hours and Nottingham is ninety minutes. If we're comparing to SWR's 444s, the journey time to Weymouth is of course 3.5 hours.

 

[Trainman40083]

Wouldn't surprise me if the DfT strips back and back further then the 810s probably will end up being very similiar to SWR's 444s, no buffet, replaced with trolley service if you're lucky to get one also "standard plus" labelled as first class - better buy that Costa takeaway before boarding the train!

Oh, I always get food and drink before I get on EMR.

This is all very depressing to read.

And they wonder why 75% of people from Sheffield to London, drive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trolley service is more than adequate, Sheffield is two hours and Nottingham is ninety minutes. If we're comparing to SWR's 444s, the journey time to Weymouth is of course 3.5 hours.

Weymouth sits with the Highland Chieftain/Aberdonian and GWR Penzance services - they are unusually long services compared to the bulk of the TOC's operation, and while they could do with a different style of stock and on-board service it's not, because it would mean microfleets, sensible/economic to provide them.

EMR's journeys are all fairly short so you don't really need luxury and high levels of on-board service, you need decent comfort and maybe the opportunity to get a second coffee to the one you took on from a station shop as almost every coffee drinker will, and food can be taken on from Mark's or wherever.

Oh, I always get food and drink before I get on EMR.

Most people do. M&S Food and the likes are what's killed on-train buffets to be honest. And that's not solely a UK thing - DB have got rid of restaurant cars from ICs, NS got rid of on board catering years ago.

The most people want is a decent coffee on longer trips (though they'll almost certainly have carried one on to start with). A Nespresso machine on a trolley could do that.

And they wonder why 75% of people from Sheffield to London, drive.

I suspect there are two main reasons they do - overcrowding and high fares. I can't imagine most care whether there's a buffet or not, and First Class is irrelevant to the vast majority of people these days.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Weymouth sits with the Highland Chieftain/Aberdonian and GWR Penzance services - they are unusually long services compared to the bulk of the TOC's operation, and while they could do with a different style of stock and on-board service it's not, because it would mean microfleets, sensible/economic to provide them.

There are twenty four trains from Waterloo to Weymouth each day, I do not think you can compare it with the Highland Chieftain.

I'm not advocating for new stock and on-board service (though a trolley for that and Exeter really would be welcomed back), but when Weymouth has nothing, I think EMR customers moaning that they have a trolley instead of a buffet on their 90 minute express to Nottingham is somewhat entitled.

 

[RailWonderer]

Wouldn't surprise me if the DfT strips back and back further then the 810s probably will end up being very similiar to SWR's 444s, no buffet, replaced with trolley service if you're lucky to get one also "standard plus" labelled as first class - better buy that Costa takeaway before boarding the train!

Not really. Coffee on a trolley is always cheaper than a station Costa. As are most of the refreshments. The operator has no lease for the premises to pay for.

I think a trolley service is fine for EMR, in GA land we kept our buffet shop for the Norwich IC (1 hour 50 end to end) but it's always been well used so it was worth the extra cost of installation (and was not subject to any DfT interference back in 2016).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think EMR customers moaning that they have a trolley instead of a buffet on their 90 minute express to Nottingham is somewhat entitled.

I think it's not a sensible complaint, certainly. Trolley coffee is invariably rubbish, which is a sensible complaint, but it is possible to make it not rubbish, instant isn't the only option. That is, it's perfectly possible to fit a bean to cup or coffee pod machine to a trolley with an on board water tank and a battery power supply, and indeed that sort of thing is already in use in places like Italy.

Many will prefer a trolley, e.g. if you've got a laptop packing it up and carrying it to the buffet and back so it isn't nicked is an almighty faff.

As for wifi, it's like Rabbit phones - it'll die out in time as everything just has an e-SIM in it. I give it 10 years or so (because people keep computers longer than phones).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think it's not a sensible complaint, certainly. Trolley coffee is invariably rubbish, which is a sensible complaint, but it is possible to make it not rubbish, instant isn't the only option.

Many will prefer a trolley, e.g. if you've got a laptop packing it up and carrying it to the buffet and back so it isn't nicked is an almighty faff.

As for wifi, it's like Rabbit phones - it'll die out in time as everything just has an e-SIM in it. I give it 10 years or so (because people keep computers longer than phones).

Especially as this isn't replacing a spacious MK4 buffet or space-efficient 801 buffet. The 222 buffet in the vestibule is tiny, cramped, often closed, and really really unpleasant to queue at (or pass when moving through the vestibule) on a busy train.

 

[QSK19]

They […] even said the current Aurora seat design and cabin interior is too expensive and want to reduce the cost of it.

Hopefully we’ve dodged the dreaded Sophias. I remember somebody posting a message several months ago saying they had seen another 810 in the factory with interiors already installed (but wasn’t allowed to post any pics on RF); so hopefully it’s too far gone for the DfT to intervene. Mind you, never be complacent - wouldnt surprise me if they insisted on Sophias for the 16 or so still to be built!

 

[WesternLancer]

But some of this about the catering offer is about he level of service one can expect on IC type trains with IC levels of fares charged. The service is being downgraded but the fares remain high and no prospect of them reducing either. So the value gets worse....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But some of this about the catering offer is about he level of service one can expect on IC type trains with IC levels of fares charged. The service is being downgraded but the fares remain high and no prospect of them reducing either. So the value gets worse....

According to who? It is not objective to say that a buffet to a trolley is a downgrade, as it completely depends on who you are and who you ask. Many appreciate the convenience of being served at-seat. Others, of course, don't.

 

[QSK19]

Not really. Coffee on a trolley is always cheaper than a station Costa. As are most of the refreshments. The operator has no lease for the premises to pay for.

I think a trolley service is fine for EMR, in GA land we kept our buffet shop for the Norwich IC (1 hour 50 end to end) but it's always been well used so it was worth the extra cost of installation (and was not subject to any DfT interference back in 2016).

Which I think sums up how unfortunate the timing was for EMR’s stock rotation. Quality was a key requirement for orders placed back then: you look at GA having a complete fleet replacement with new trains and WMR being awash with new trains; but the sister TOC was subject to a completely different landscape - the best EMR has managed to get out of it is mid-life non-IC stock with not even a basic refurbishment, endless delays and 810s that have been at risk of spec dilution by the DfT.

The saving grace is that EMR does get its trains from A to B and runs a reliable service - more than can be said for others like TPE and Avanti.

 

[WesternLancer]

According to who? It is not objective to say that a buffet to a trolley is a downgrade, as it completely depends on who you are and who you ask. Many appreciate the convenience of being served at-seat. Others, of course, don't.

Thanks, but I wasn't specifically referring to the method of service to the customer for refreshments (0bv for some people at seat is much more convenient) - but it's the product range, cold food only, occasional absence of service, more limited 1st class offer etc etc that to me represents a downgrade in value offered for fare paid.

Value is of course a subjective thing. So in that sense it is according to me - it's my opinion.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thanks, but I wasn't specifically referring to the method of service to the customer for refreshments (0bv for some people at seat is much more convenient) - but it's the product range, cold food only, occasional absence of service, more limited 1st class offer etc etc that to me represents a downgrade in value offered for fare paid.

Value is of course a subjective thing. So in that sense it is according to me - it's my opinion.

Do we know yet that the product range is going to be reduced? It's a very, very small buffet after all, and the 810s will no doubt have a galley where hot options could be provided if really needed.

 

[WesternLancer]

Do we know yet that the product range is going to be reduced? It's a very, very small buffet after all, and the 810s will no doubt have a galley where hot options could be provided if really needed.

Thanks - I was commenting (the point you picked up that I made) with this recent post in mind:

I wouldn’t get your hopes up - the DfT have since had their claws all over it. They wanted the WiFi removing and even said the current Aurora seat design and cabin interior is too expensive and want to reduce the cost of it. The galley is tiny, nothing like the 222, and doesn’t have ovens, and the dishwasher was at risk last I heard which tells me paper cups and plates for the long term. MD says the first class offering is correct for the journey length of just over 2hrs from Sheffield to STP. The first class offering is embarrassing especially when you have to pay £1.50 for a small can of coke!

 

[liamf656]

Wouldn't surprise me if the DfT strips back and back further then the 810s probably will end up being very similiar to SWR's 444s, no buffet, replaced with trolley service if you're lucky to get one also "standard plus" labelled as first class - better buy that Costa takeaway before boarding the train!

There wasn't any intention to include a buffet unfortunately. The ones on the 222s don't get used anymore either