Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Rob F]

There are twenty four trains from Waterloo to Weymouth each day, I do not think you can compare it with the Highland Chieftain.

I'm not advocating for new stock and on-board service (though a trolley for that and Exeter really would be welcomed back), but when Weymouth has nothing, I think EMR customers moaning that they have a trolley instead of a buffet on their 90 minute express to Nottingham is somewhat entitled.

This is the classic 'race to the bottom' argument. Because something is bad somewhere, no one anywhere else is entitled to anything better. A bit depressing really.

 

[800001]

810003 currently sat outside at Hitachi Newton Aycliffe, seats fitted, lots of yellow quality control stickers all over outside of unit, and blue plastic covering roof equipment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This is the classic 'race to the bottom' argument. Because something is bad somewhere, no one anywhere else is entitled to anything better. A bit depressing really.

No, I think it would be that if I were saying no catering at all is needed, but I'm not, I'm just saying (how am I on the side of the TOC for once?) that a buffet is not the be all and end all for such a short journey. People don't want to let go of nostalgic traditional elements of the past, it was the same with a restaurant car. It is not a long journey to Nottingham, and how many customers are ordering hot food on this 90 minute run anyway?

 

[WesternLancer]

It is not a long journey to Nottingham, and how many customers are ordering hot food on this 90 minute run anyway?

Well, pre covid there was a clear demand for the best part of 2.5 HST carriages worth of full English cooked breakfasts on a Saturday morning with many people trading up from Std Class to enjoy it.

The demand is there - it's just that DfT and EMR have no interest in building the market any more - that's my opinion. And part of the reason they are not interested ins that they did not specify rolling stock that could help build that demand amongst passengers.

 

[Rob F]

No, I think it would be that if I were saying no catering at all is needed, but I'm not, I'm just saying (how am I on the side of the TOC for once?) that a buffet is not the be all and end all for such a short journey. People don't want to let go of nostalgic traditional elements of the past, it was the same with a restaurant car. It is not a long journey to Nottingham, and how many customers are ordering hot food on this 90 minute run anyway?

I don't know the answer to your question, but I suspect you don't either.

However, that answer is what should decide what level of catering is sustainable, not some straw man argument about what is provided on a completely different route.

 

[QSK19]

810003 currently sat outside at Hitachi Newton Aycliffe, seats fitted, lots of yellow quality control stickers all over outside of unit, and blue plastic covering roof equipment.

Ah that’s good news - nice to see that bit more progress.

 

[RailWonderer]

There wasn't any intention to include a buffet unfortunately. The ones on the 222s don't get used anymore either

I was also told on two of my recent journeys that the buffet was complimentary and was only for first class passengers.
I've been on a dozen EMR journeys last year and the year before and only saw the trolley pass by twice. You have to know to head to the first class area to buy something from it.

 

[YorksLad12]

Trolley service is more than adequate, Sheffield is two hours and Nottingham is ninety minutes. If we're comparing to SWR's 444s, the journey time to Weymouth is of course 3.5 hours.

Logically then, if Leeds to Kings Cross gets down to two hours we'd lose our very nice First Class offering... and there would be riots. For me, if you're selling the train as a mobile office (as many do use it) then a high-quality catering offering should be... well, offered. Yes, I know we've spoiled thanks to Christopher Garnett's GNER but I think it's a standard others should be aspiring to match, if not exceed.

810003 currently sat outside at Hitachi Newton Aycliffe, seats fitted, lots of yellow quality control stickers all over outside of unit, and blue plastic covering roof equipment.

Yay, apart from the need for quality control stickers...

 

[The_Train]

Well, pre covid there was a clear demand for the best part of 2.5 HST carriages worth of full English cooked breakfasts on a Saturday morning with many people trading up from Std Class to enjoy it.

The demand is there - it's just that DfT and EMR have no interest in building the market any more - that's my opinion. And part of the reason they are not interested ins that they did not specify rolling stock that could help build that demand amongst passengers.

This kind of sums up how people's mindset works! When something is removed and people can't use it, there is then a claim that there is no demand for it. Well yeah, there is no demand because there is no service available - it actually typifies the Tory approach to the railways (and most things) in that they will slowly and quietly remove aspects of a certain industry to make it harder to use and then when usage inevitably drops will use this as an excuse to then announce further cuts "because nobody is using it".

It is remarkable how many fall for it and how quickly people forget the usage that actually occurred before the service in question was removed.

 

[DJH1971]

Ah that’s good news - nice to see that bit more progress.

What about 810002?

 

[43096]

Well, pre covid there was a clear demand for the best part of 2.5 HST carriages worth of full English cooked breakfasts on a Saturday morning with many people trading up from Std Class to enjoy it.

The demand is there - it's just that DfT and EMR have no interest in building the market any more - that's my opinion. And part of the reason they are not interested ins that they did not specify rolling stock that could help build that demand amongst passengers.

This kind of sums up how people's mindset works! When something is removed and people can't use it, there is then a claim that there is no demand for it. Well yeah, there is no demand because there is no service available - it actually typifies the Tory approach to the railways (and most things) in that they will slowly and quietly remove aspects of a certain industry to make it harder to use and then when usage inevitably drops will use this as an excuse to then announce further cuts "because nobody is using it".

It is remarkable how many fall for it and how quickly people forget the usage that actually occurred before the service in question was removed.

I couldn’t agree more with both of you. The nosedive of quality in the last few years is the main reason why the car is now my transport of choice for longer distance journeys in Britain. Still do plenty of rail travel in other countries - about three times the distance compared with Britain last year - which tells you everything.

 

[QSK19]

What about 810002?

In Italy for climate testing as per post 2,185.

 

[LowLevel]

To be fair the buffet counters by and large have been out of use on the MML for 16 years - though I do miss the service they provided - and the "commuter club" that hung out at them is a thing of the past. They'd probably be quite popular at weekends I suppose.

Knocking out a full English for every passenger for a 12 quid weekend first upgrade, friends and family perk tickets or cheap advance was not good business, really. It was a nice to have but it was a mission to provide.

The weekday offering again was appealing to the business crowd that is no longer so numerous and even then plenty of breakfast was wasted.

 

[The_Train]

002 is in Italy at Pistoia for climate testing.

Any idea when this went over to Italy please?

Also, are all of these units coming out of Newton Aycliffe dressed in purple?

 

[800001]

What about 810002?

Post 2340, 2 coaches sent to Italy for climate chamber testing.

Any idea when this went over to Italy please?

Also, are all of these units coming out of Newton Aycliffe dressed in purple?

Yes they get painted purple at Newton Aycliffe, after they have been welded together to form the shell.

 

[Ethan1852]

WaverleyJohn on Youtube has captured 810003.

 

[800001]

And a

WaverleyJohn on Youtube has captured 810003.

good capture as a couple of hours later the set was back inside the test shed out of view.

 

[D365]

There wasn't any intention to include a buffet unfortunately. The ones on the 222s don't get used anymore either

Saved me a comment, thanks.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Isn't it a safety matter? If it could be done quicker, why wouldn't it be? As you say, the process costs money.

The first one appeared six months ago so plenty of time for type testing bearing in mind the subsystems would have been subjected to their own type testing beforehand so this now an overall system and integration test of the complete train.

 

[43066]

Well, pre covid there was a clear demand for the best part of 2.5 HST carriages worth of full English cooked breakfasts on a Saturday morning with many people trading up from Std Class to enjoy it.

The demand is there - it's just that DfT and EMR have no interest in building the market any more - that's my opinion. And part of the reason they are not interested ins that they did not specify rolling stock that could help build that demand amongst passengers.

Much as I understand the sentiment, we know these are shorter-than-ideal-five car trains, whose length is limited by the infrastructure, and that there’s already severe over crowding on the route. Hence buffets that are already a waste of space on the current fleet can’t really be justified, and neither could a full size galley that, just like on the Meridians, wouldn’t be used to cook meals anymore (or only on a few trains), but would take up half a carriage of seating space - just as with the farcical kitchens on the GWR fleet.

The “demand” as passenger numbers continue to rise over the next few decades, is going to more focussed around getting a seat, or even getting onto the train at all, than getting a cooked breakfast etc.

 

[WesternLancer]

Much as I understand the sentiment, we know these are shorter-than-ideal-five car trains, whose length is limited by the infrastructure, and that there’s already severe over crowding on the route. Hence buffets that are already a waste of space on the current fleet can’t really be justified, and neither could a full size galley that, just like on the Meridians, wouldn’t be used to cook meals anymore (or only on a few trains), but would take up half a carriage of seating space - just as with the farcical kitchens on the GWR fleet.

The “demand” as passenger numbers continue to rise over the next few decades, is going to more focussed around getting a seat, or even getting onto the train at all, than getting a cooked breakfast etc.

Yes, I do appreciate those points - but that issue ref seating should have been addressed by the size of the fleet (or coaches for each train) in my view. If the demand is as high as it is and if it is predicted to increase then more carriages are surely required, which should generate more income and use assets more effectively and efficiently (staff to passenger ratio for example).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Much as I understand the sentiment, we know these are shorter-than-ideal-five car trains, whose length is limited by the infrastructure, and that there’s already severe over crowding on the route. Hence buffets that are already a waste of space on the current fleet can’t really be justified, and neither could a full size galley that, just like on the Meridians, wouldn’t be used to cook meals anymore (or only on a few trains), but would take up half a carriage of seating space - just as with the farcical kitchens on the GWR fleet.

The “demand” as passenger numbers continue to rise over the next few decades, is going to more focussed around getting a seat, or even getting onto the train at all, than getting a cooked breakfast etc.

Absolutely business expense travel is a thing of another age

 

[WesternLancer]

Absolutely business expense travel is a thing of another age

Didn't realise it was only people on expenses that got hungry

 

[PG]

Didn't realise it was only people on expenses that got hungry

They were the only ones who could afford to buy a cooked meal on-board

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Saved me a comment, thanks.

Or it would have done, had you not commented anyway

Absolutely business expense travel is a thing of another age

Sadly. I’d have happily let my boss foot the upgrade.

 

[43066]

Yes, I do appreciate those points - but that issue ref seating should have been addressed by the size of the fleet (or coaches for each train) in my view. If the demand is as high as it is and if it is predicted to increase then more carriages are surely required, which should generate more income and use assets more effectively and efficiently (staff to passenger ratio for example).

It probably won’t be enough carriages for the long term. Trouble is we are where we are with that now, and then you get back into the issues of limited platform capacity at St Pancras meaning you could only have five car trains (which can be strengthened to tens), and the limited capacity on the southern MML meaning you can’t increase train numbers easily either, hence needing to maximise capacity from the fives.

 

[Killingworth]

Didn't realise it was only people on expenses that got hungry

I confess, in days now long gone by I'd have a 3 course meal between St Pancras and Chesterfield. Expenses only covered standard class travel but if I had a meal I could sit in first. If my journey home was over 2 hours I could recover the cost of the meal. (It had previously worked for me between Kings Cross and Brough.)

Times change.

 

[QSK19]

I confess, in days now long gone by I'd have a 3 course meal between St Pancras and Chesterfield. Expenses only covered standard class travel but if I had a meal I could sit in first. If my journey home was over 2 hours I could recover the cost of the meal. (It had previously worked for me between Kings Cross and Brough.)

Times change.

I remember the 2 hour cut off as well - we got first class travel if the journey was over 2 hours. So, when I had to travel back from Ashford once, I made sure that I travelled on the itinerary taking 2:01

A shame that EMR’s offering seems to be morphing into more of a standard plus product and they’re moving away from a proper first class (eventually, it’ll probably end up being a vending machine only refreshments provision and “first class” will merely consist of more spacious seating).

 

[Aspen90]

I remember the 2 hour cut off as well - we got first class travel if the journey was over 2 hours. So, when I had to travel back from Ashford once, I made sure that I travelled on the itinerary taking 2:01

A shame that EMR’s offering seems to be morphing into more of a standard plus product and they’re moving away from a proper first class (eventually, it’ll probably end up being a vending machine only refreshments provision and “first class” will merely consist of more spacious seating).

It will be interesting to see if ‘first class’ is embossed in to the seats or if it will disappear before they are running in preparation for 1st to disappear in the future.

 

[hwl]

Absolutely business expense travel is a thing of another age

Exactly overall business travel levels on rail are at ~30% of pre-covid levels.

Time to adapt.

The goal posts have moved and it is now expected that you can use a laptop and have a power supply at all seats.

The 222 interior could have been better adapted to a long time ago and if this had been done there would be less questioning of 810 capacity.

I also get the feeling that with an all 5 car fleet Sheffield may be run as 5 car North of Derby/10 car south of Derby and it is a mistake to assume future 810 operations will be the same as today.