Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Bornin1980s]

But all of that was known when they were ordered, so Hitachi should have had time for that work built in to the build schedule.

Had they quoted a more realistic cost and build schedule, they would not have won the contract. That's the nature of competitive tendering, you can only win if you promise the impossible.

 

[Benjwri]

Dft specified 26m as part of the Intercity Express Prigramme Order.

It was actually the DfT that mandated the 26m vehicle lengthen as part of the IEP procurement, so not Hitachi changing the 'rule book' on it's own.

Is there a source for this? As I understood it there was never a 'mandated' carriage length, but the government left the door open to 26m as it was specifically defined as the maximum length. My understanding was that Hitachi brought 26m to the table with their bid, although obviously the government is the one that chose it. Certainly the tender and supporting documents do not limit carriage length beyond a maximum of 26m.

 

[ChrisC]

Probably not so important now they are delayed, and wires will be to Wigston, and southern section wires upgraded to 125mph by time they enter service

They could probably just about manage to match the timings of the 222’s on the Nottinghams. Without the extra engines they wouldn’t be able to match the timings over the gradients north of Derby on the Sheffields.

As the delays in getting the 810’s delivered and into service continue to increase, hopefully as discussed earlier in this thread, EMR might have more chance of getting a few extra units as compensation.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Is there a source for this? As I understood it there was never a 'mandated' carriage length, but the government left the door open to 26m as it was specifically defined as the maximum length. My understanding was that Hitachi brought 26m to the table with their bid, although obviously the government is the one that chose it. Certainly the tender and supporting documents do not limit carriage length beyond a maximum of 26m.

I think the DfT wanting ‘maximum furnishable floor space’ or however they put it would more or less seal the deal for 26 over 23m.

 

[Energy]

Is there a source for this? As I understood it there was never a 'mandated' carriage length, but the government left the door open to 26m as it was specifically defined as the maximum length. My understanding was that Hitachi brought 26m to the table with their bid, although obviously the government is the one that chose it. Certainly the tender and supporting documents do not limit carriage length beyond a maximum of 26m.

Maximum length was 312m (12x26m) and minimum was 130m. However, I can't see why a bidder couldn't submit 144m (6x24m) and 312m (13x24m) if they wanted to. The tender focuses a lot on furnishable floor space, the 26m maximises this by pushing toilets and bike storage into the vestibules by the tapered ends

 

[Snow1964]

Had they quoted a more realistic cost and build schedule, they would not have won the contract. That's the nature of competitive tendering, you can only win if you promise the impossible.

That is rather a polite way of saying the team evaluating the bids couldn't see through this trick. A competent person would have made sure penalties exceeded any gains from a fantasy timescale.

Thats why some businesses (and some countries like Singapore) effectively don't allow variations until the original product is delivered to contract and on time. Stops people overbidding and they don't get caught for expensive variations.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That is rather a polite way of saying the team evaluating the bids couldn't see through this trick. A competent person would have made sure penalties exceeded any gains from a fantasy timescale.

Thats why some businesses (and some countries like Singapore) effectively don't allow variations until the original product is delivered to contract and on time. Stops people overbidding and they don't get caught for expensive variations.

Of course there may have been legitimate variations ie were the better seats in the base tender or not.

 

[Aspen90]

There’s a possession on the engineering siding at Kettering currently in preparation for storing an 810. Obviously the 810 won’t be there for a while but positive to see at least.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There’s a possession on the engineering siding at Kettering currently in preparation for storing an 810. Obviously the 810 won’t be there for a while but positive to see at least.

If you mean stabling its positive if you mean "storing" its not i would suggest.

 

[Aspen90]

If you mean stabling its positive if you mean "storing" its not i would suggest.

At this stage, who knows!

 

[Ethan1852]

This month's Modern Railways Magazine has shed some light on the 810's yet again. This time it states:

There are also reports of welding issues with the new Class 810 bodyshells around the door.

It says that entry into service is early 2025. However, as many people have said 2026 looks more promising.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Firstly this is the first body to be welded at Newton Aycliffe. And it is taking longer than expected per vehicle to complete.

I was under the impression that the Avanti 805/807 build was the first to weld car bodies locally at Newton Aycliffe.
Slightly confusing because the local build was specified as "around half" of it, so it's uncertain which units are welded locally, and which in Japan.
So it's possible all those delivered to Avanti so far used Kasado-built car bodies.
And the Avanti build, of which about half has been delivered, is also very late compared to the original contract.
There is also the anti-cracking modification to be applied at some point to the Avanti and EMR fleets.

 

[800001]

I was under the impression that the Avanti 805/807 build was the first to weld car bodies locally at Newton Aycliffe.
Slightly confusing because the local build was specified as "around half" of it, so it's uncertain which units are welded locally, and which in Japan.
So it's possible all those delivered to Avanti so far used Kasado-built car bodies.
And the Avanti build, of which about half has been delivered, is also very late compared to the original contract.
There is also the anti-cracking modification to be applied at some point to the Avanti and EMR fleets.

EMR is the first to be built using the word at Newton Aycliffe. As far as am aware EMR would not need the crack repairs, but Avanti fleet will.

I was under impression half of Avanti build was also to be built via weld at Aycliffe, but 3 weeks ago, shells from Kasado were still been seen delivered via road to Newton Aycliffe .

 

[Yew]

What would the options be for some additional stock to fill in the gaps, as it feels like these replacement units are as far away as ever.

 

[Nym]

What would the options be for some additional stock to fill in the gaps, as it feels like these replacement units are as far away as ever.

All that comes to mind is Ex. VT 221s. They live nearby enough and look similar enough.
Even though in reality they’re quite different, conversion training for drivers wouldn’t be too complex

 

[43066]

What would the options be for some additional stock to fill in the gaps, as it feels like these replacement units are as far away as ever.

There are none!

All that comes to mind is Ex. VT 221s. They live nearby enough and look similar enough.
Even though in reality they’re quite different, conversion training for drivers wouldn’t be too complex

It would still require a full traction course. That’s academic, however, as there are no plans to introduce 221s or any other stock ahead of the 810s.

 

[Nym]

stupider things have been done for EMR… see Class 180

 

[43066]

stupider things have been done for EMR… see Class 180

Well yes, that’s true!

 

[Trainman40083]

All that comes to mind is Ex. VT 221s. They live nearby enough and look similar enough.
Even though in reality they’re quite different, conversion training for drivers wouldn’t be too complex

But it isn't just the conversion training for the drivers. The units cannot work together

 

[QSK19]

stupider things have been done for EMR… see Class 180

Yep, you beat me to it. I’m sure that 109, 110, 111 and 113 can return to the fold (well, at least the 3 that didn’t have a meeting with a cow!)

 

[Topological]

What would the options be for some additional stock to fill in the gaps, as it feels like these replacement units are as far away as ever.

Is it not just a case of not letting the 222 go off lease? Although extra capacity is welcome anywhere, the line is working at the moment. I cannot see any other stock being brought in while waiting for the 810s.

 

[Nym]

But it isn't just the conversion training for the drivers. The units cannot work together

I wasn’t saying they’d Multi work with the 222s.
The HSTs or 180s couldn’t multi with the 222s either(!)

 

[Maddog83]

222s will get reformed back to 9 and 4 cars before they start to go off lease in Dec, requiring 360s to go to MH, and Sheffield services to stop at Kettering again. 810 training to start Feb 25. In to service end of summer 2025. Another forum has suggested the 810s have the same cracking issues and is being looked into. Not sure how accurate that is.

 

[Aspen90]

222s will get reformed back to 9 and 4 cars before they start to go off lease in Dec, requiring 360s to go to MH, and Sheffield services to stop at Kettering again. 810 training to start Feb 25. In to service end of summer 2025. Another forum has suggested the 810s have the same cracking issues and is being looked into. Not sure how accurate that is.

Interesting. Is this a definite regarding the 222/360 or is it an idea they’ve had? Big changes!

 

[43055]

Interesting. Is this a definite regarding the 222/360 or is it an idea they’ve had? Big changes!

Hope not! 5 car 222s are bad enough at time's.

 

[800001]

Hope not! 5 car 222s are bad enough at time's.

Trains to be handed back
To leasing company need to be returned to them as they were hired/leased.

 

[LowLevel]

Trains to be handed back
To leasing company need to be returned to them as they were hired/leased.

Or as otherwise agreed, is the important rider.

 

[dosxuk]

Trains to be handed back
To leasing company need to be returned to them as they were hired/leased.

Unless agreed otherwise, and even that doesn't mean any reforming needs to happen before they go out of service.

 

[43066]

222s will get reformed back to 9 and 4 cars before they start to go off lease in Dec, requiring 360s to go to MH, and Sheffield services to stop at Kettering again. 810 training to start Feb 25. In to service end of summer 2025. Another forum has suggested the 810s have the same cracking issues and is being looked into. Not sure how accurate that is.

I’m not sure how accurate any of this is. There’s no training agreement with ASLEF yet, let alone a start date. Dates for training, entry into service etc. are also subject to units being built/accepted etc. which is a movable feast.

If 222s are reformed that would be after they’ve left service with EMR as I do know diagrams are to remain largely as is until the 810s are introduced.

 

[liamf656]

222s will get reformed back to 9 and 4 cars before they start to go off lease in Dec, requiring 360s to go to MH, and Sheffield services to stop at Kettering again

Not sure this is true I'm afraid