class 82 DVT

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Tom

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VT no longer use class 43 HSTs for any operation. They do operate using class 90s on certain services when Voyagers are unavailable.
 

ChrisCooper

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The multiple working system on the HSTs is totally different to that on the DVTs. The HSTs use a traditional multiple wire system, with wires or conbinations of wires energise for each control signal, wheras the DVTs use a TDM system which uses one wire, but electronically seperates the control signals into different time slots. Also, whilst the HSTs use special jumper cables between the powercars, so can only work with HST trailers, the DVTs use the train lighting control jumpers so can work with almost any passenger or parcels stock. Some HST powercars were fitted with TDM though, initially for experimental running with class 86s on the WCML, and later for use with 91s before the Mk4s arrived, with one powercar replaced with an electric loco. Originally they were only fitted so they could control the electric loco like a DVT, but since the HST engine needed to be running for train supply (HSTs use a different system to conventional hauled stock), and it was found that the engines didn't like idling for long periods, they were modified so that the HST would provide power aswell, and when leading the electric loco would control the HST, giving very good performance. In theory, there is no reason why these powercars couldn't be controlled from a DVT, although I don't think it was ever done. Once the Mk4s arrived, the HST were no longer needed, and the TDM equipment was taken out. The powercars that were modified were returned to almost original state, the only difference being the buffers on the front, which were retained (these were fitted so that if the TDM failed, as it did, and often still does, the loco could be run around and coupled to the HST powercar without having to worry about setting the emergency coupling bar up).
 

1D53

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Craig said:
Aren't they still using an MML HST for the Leeds - Plymouth - York diagram? Departs Leeds around 7am IIRC.
Back as Voyager now for the time being at least.
 

87015

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dvn1357 said:
After reading Railway Annual '96 wandered about the 91 working with an HST at the other end. Did this ever happen?
Certainly did, worked the ECML for a fair while post electrification before the DVTs came on stream. The power cars used were fitted with buffers so easy to identify.
 

Techniquest

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The surgery those 43s received for the Surrogate DVTs ruined them, stopped them being wired for ATP. I daresay they'll never get used again now.
 

Guinness

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Didn't some HST Powercars get used as a DVT without engines in the 90s when the WCML had a shortage of DVTs or something?
 

Coxster

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Chaz said:
Didn't some HST Powercars get used as a DVT without engines in the 90s when the WCML had a shortage of DVTs or something?
I once heard that, with 87s. Those were the ones with buffers IIRC.
 

Coxster

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joea1 said:
That's right! Class 82 would suggest it's a loco, and DVTs aren't powered ;). All coaches including trailers have an ID, 82xxx being the DVTs.
The 4-TCs were just like other 'slammers' but these weren't powered yet still had class numbers (Class 491 later Class 438 ).
 

43000

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ChrisCooper said:
The multiple working system on the HSTs is totally different to that on the DVTs. The HSTs use a traditional multiple wire system, with wires or conbinations of wires energise for each control signal, wheras the DVTs use a TDM system which uses one wire, but electronically seperates the control signals into different time slots. Also, whilst the HSTs use special jumper cables between the powercars, so can only work with HST trailers, the DVTs use the train lighting control jumpers so can work with almost any passenger or parcels stock. Some HST powercars were fitted with TDM though, initially for experimental running with class 86s on the WCML, and later for use with 91s before the Mk4s arrived, with one powercar replaced with an electric loco. Originally they were only fitted so they could control the electric loco like a DVT, but since the HST engine needed to be running for train supply (HSTs use a different system to conventional hauled stock), and it was found that the engines didn't like idling for long periods, they were modified so that the HST would provide power aswell, and when leading the electric loco would control the HST, giving very good performance. In theory, there is no reason why these powercars couldn't be controlled from a DVT, although I don't think it was ever done. Once the Mk4s arrived, the HST were no longer needed, and the TDM equipment was taken out. The powercars that were modified were returned to almost original state, the only difference being the buffers on the front, which were retained (these were fitted so that if the TDM failed, as it did, and often still does, the loco could be run around and coupled to the HST powercar without having to worry about setting the emergency coupling bar up).
well, that can be a good idea (and i m sure i m not the first one who think about it) - put on one set an HST + 91 or 90 + 8/9 Mk 4 and run this set to Inverness (for example) where part of the route is not electrified.
can HST carry 8 or 9 cars alone (1 HST)?
 

David

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On routes like that, it would struggle (badly). You then have the problem of controlling the class 43 on 1 leg of the journey, because (IIRC, (help someone, please)) the 91 won't be able to do so if it isshut down.
 

ChrisCooper

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The 91 could control the HST, anything fitted with TDM can control anything else fitted. You are right though that performance when the HST was powering would be bad. Since the 91 would weight about 14t more than a HST powercar, it would be worse than a HST with one powercar dead. Although speeds are fairly slow north of Edinburgh, with 100mph maximum, and not massive amounts that fast, the gradients (in particular on the Inverness route) and speed changes would mean that the lower acceleration would have a big effect. Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if a conventional diesel loco dragging a 91 and Mk4 set wouldn't be better. Either way though, you're taking a 91 well away from where it's useful, under the wires. Maybe a better option would be to fit a driving cab to the TGS and take the 91 off at Edinburgh, but it's still not going to perform that well, as well as being expensive, and incuring a time penalty for removing and adding the 91. Also their is the fact that the powercars would need to have the TDM equipment refitted, along with modifications to the coaches (fitting of wires, and fitting of a drophead buckeye and buffers to the TGS, incase something other than a 91 needed to couple on). Also, a good chunk of the originally converted powercars are with NR for use with the NMTs.
 

voyagerdude220

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tubechallenger said:
That has now ended from what I have heard.
Does that mean that 1V53 10:10 Glasgow to Penzance could be a double-set next week then?

If it is when i get it, it'll be even quieter in FC :D
 

Guinness

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voyagerdude220 said:
Does that mean that 1V53 10:10 Glasgow to Penzance could be a double-set next week then?

If it is when i get it, it'll be even quieter in FC :D
Depends on the amount of Voyagers available at the depot. Some of them are soon to recieve modifications to fix the overheating problem.
 

andel

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The HST units with Buffers are on FGW but are being swapped with the units that don't have them at Cotswold Rail.
 

O L Leigh

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Coxster said:
The 4-TCs were just like other 'slammers' but these weren't powered yet still had class numbers (Class 491 later Class 438 ).
The difference is that the DVT 82XXX number range is a vehicle number, not a TOPS class number.

Incidentally, even though an HST isn't operating off the knitting south of Edinburgh, I still believe that this is the best method of operation between London and Aberdeen/Inverness. It goes as quick as a Cl91+Mk4's, saves the hassle of a traction changeover at Edinburgh and means that the operator is not required to maintain a seperate diesel fleet just for drags.

one TN
 

voyagerdude220

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voyagerdude220 said:
Does that mean that 1V53 10:10 Glasgow to Penzance could be a double-set next week then?

If it is when i get it, it'll be even quieter in FC :D
'Twas a super shop last Monday, formed of recently bricked (fu*k*** wank*rs! whoever did that to the lovely DEMU..) 220 033 "Fife Voyager" & 220 001 "Somerset Voager".

Apparantly, the rear 001 set was virtually empty, whilst my set was reasonably full most of the time.
 

Lewisham2221

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voyagerdude220 said:
'Twas a super shop last Monday, formed of recently bricked (fu*k*** wank*rs! whoever did that to the lovely DEMU..) 220 033 "Fife Voyager" & 220 001 "Somerset Voager".

Apparantly, the rear 001 set was virtually empty, whilst my set was reasonably full most of the time.
Seems to be quite common when running double Voyagers, everybody piles into the set that is already full, whilst a few people opt for the set where they can actually get a seat and/or be reasonably comfortable.
 

voyagerdude220

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Lewisham2221 said:
Seems to be quite common when running double Voyagers, everybody piles into the set that is already full, whilst a few people opt for the set where they can actually get a seat and/or be reasonably comfortable.
Well If I knew it was a double set before it pulled in, I would have gone for the set labled coaches G to J or K.

If the train was running on time, I probablly would've walked down to the other set (220 001), and got in the apparantly desserted FC coach at Birmingham N St.
 
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