Cleaners on FGW trains to strike

[38Cto15E]

I was looking at Cornwall news on my Virgin media teletext news items and noticed that cleaners on FGW would be striking for 24 hours.
Apparently they have to agree to a 2% pay rise but Zero hours contracts.

I do not know any facts about this dispute but IMHO I do not like zero hours contracts, unfortunately jobs are in short supply and people are desperate to take anything which will pay their bills.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Wow. A 2% payrise with a guarantee of no work if we feel like it. But hey, at least you're employed right? I mean, who needs money to live on these days? Just go down the local food bank and beg...

 

[Suraggu]

Which cleaners? Mitte or FGW.
FGW all grades in the RMT are balloting to strike due to various flaws with FGW.

This maybe Mitte cleaners.

 

[Captain Chaos]

It is Mitie. I was speaking to one of them yesterday. They treat them badly. My brother worked for Mitie once. He left after a few weeks. Almost never got paid on time etc etc. Bloody awful company. Nothing against contractors or agency staff. Though I think if you contract an agency member for more then 2 years I feel that calling them temp or agency is taking the mickey. If you need them for that long then they are permanent, not temporary imo. It's companies like Mitie that give agencies a bad name.

 

[Flamingo]

They have a lot of issues about pay and conditions which are valid. They should be taken back in-house.

 

[AndrewP]

They have a lot of issues about pay and conditions which are valid. They should be taken back in-house.

I doubt that taking the service in house is even an option for FGW as it is something they simply won't want to do and there are many companies out there who can deliver the service.

Without commenting on this specific situation although the use of zero hours contracts for a stable, timetabled service (other than casual staff at times of extra demand) seems very strange and an expensive way of getting staff.

I have procured a lot of external cleaning contracts and have the following comments to make on the industry as a whole:

• There are good and bad suppliers out there
• Bad suppliers can have good people (both operatives and managers)
• It makes sense in my view that this is an outsourced service as there is an experienced supply base out there who are likely to be almost certain to make the service work
• However, a properly managed in-house service could also work well
• Good suppliers value their staff and look to retain and develop them (I know of companies who have had staff for 20+ years) as this makes good business practice due to reduced recruitment costs
• Paying cleaners too little is a false economy (i.e. less than the London Living Wage or local equivalent) again this is due to recruitment and training costs
• Many problems in outsourced cleaning are due to poor procurement which does not value staff and focuses too much on either a prescribed service that does not allow innovation or the initial headline cost
• With cleaning you are buying people and this must be remembered throughout the procurement process
• Contract management should be based on a range of objective criteria which include softer factors, such as training and staff turnover, as well as cost and meeting key service areas

 

[Captain Chaos]

Whilst you make some excellent points may I point out that a large majority of the staff that Mitie use are the same staff that were hired by us? They haven't really procured or hired a great deal. Most of what happened was the staff got transferred to them.

 

[AndrewP]

Whilst you make some excellent points may I point out that a large majority of the staff that Mitie use are the same staff that were hired by us? They haven't really procured or hired a great deal. Most of what happened was the staff got transferred to them.

Again not referring to MITIE specifically there is a lot cleaning companies can and do do when they gain a new contract when they get the chance e.g. new plant, training and operating models.

The fact it is the same staff can be an advantage as they know what happens and will undoubtedly have a lot of ideas as to how to improve it. A good supplier will listen to them and also bring learning from elsewhere.

 

[Flamingo]

I doubt that taking the service in house is even an option for FGW as it is something they simply won't want to do and there are many companies out there who can deliver the service.

Without commenting on this specific situation although the use of zero hours contracts for a stable, timetabled service (other than casual staff at times of extra demand) seems very strange and an expensive way of getting staff.

I have procured a lot of external cleaning contracts and have the following comments to make on the industry as a whole:

• There are good and bad suppliers out there
• Bad suppliers can have good people (both operatives and managers)
• It makes sense in my view that this is an outsourced service as there is an experienced supply base out there who are likely to be almost certain to make the service work
• However, a properly managed in-house service could also work well
• Good suppliers value their staff and look to retain and develop them (I know of companies who have had staff for 20+ years) as this makes good business practice due to reduced recruitment costs
• Paying cleaners too little is a false economy (i.e. less than the London Living Wage or local equivalent) again this is due to recruitment and training costs
• Many problems in outsourced cleaning are due to poor procurement which does not value staff and focuses too much on either a prescribed service that does not allow innovation or the initial headline cost
• With cleaning you are buying people and this must be remembered throughout the procurement process
• Contract management should be based on a range of objective criteria which include softer factors, such as training and staff turnover, as well as cost and meeting key service areas

Good points. I think the problem is that there are very few points on your list that Mitie can tick ( except the point about poor procurement!)

 

[Greenback]

It is Mitie. I was speaking to one of them yesterday. They treat them badly. My brother worked for Mitie once. He left after a few weeks. Almost never got paid on time etc etc. Bloody awful company. Nothing against contractors or agency staff. Though I think if you contract an agency member for more then 2 years I feel that calling them temp or agency is taking the mickey. If you need them for that long then they are permanent, not temporary imo. It's companies like Mitie that give agencies a bad name.

I agree, I was talking to the pickets this morning,. They have a very raw deal indeed.

 

[Carlisle]

Again not referring to MITIE specifically there is a lot cleaning companies can and do do when they gain a new contract when they get the chance e.g. new plant, training and operating models.

The fact it is the same staff can be an advantage as they know what happens and will undoubtedly have a lot of ideas as to how to improve it. A good supplier will listen to them and also bring learning from elsewhere.

Sorry to sound so harsh but much of what you say is pie in the sky ,Virgin amongst others had their trains cleaned for a fair while on nightshift for minimum wage zero travel discounts or sick pay it's all about the cheapest deal and little else

 

[DazDude]

Sorry to sound so harsh but much of what you say is pie in the sky ,Virgin amongst others had their trains cleaned for a fair while on nightshift for minimum wage zero travel discounts or sick pay it's all about the cheapest deal and little else

Without saying too much, this seems to be a widespread problem, as I was contracted under MITIE on the WCML and can vouch that workers were ignored, on minimum wage contracts, zero sick pay, no shift allowances etc. And I can say that it's not improved any better since a TUPE in February. In fact workers have only just had a 2% payrise after 5 years of not having one (so haven't really found themselves any better off..)

The folk at Carlisle (The Station) clearly have their heads screwed on as I believe they have their own in house staff. A pity the rest of the network can't follow suit.

 

[Carlisle]

Without saying too much, this seems to be a widespread problem, as I was contracted under MITIE on the WCML and can vouch that workers were ignored, on minimum wage contracts, zero sick pay, no shift allowances etc. And I can say that it's not improved any better since a TUPE in February. In fact workers have only just had a 2% payrise after 5 years of not having one (so haven't really found themselves any better off..)

The folk at Carlisle (The Station) clearly have their heads screwed on as I believe they have their own in house staff. A pity the rest of the network can't follow suit.

I agree completely ,taking most of the cleaning in house would be the best long term solution ,I think the rush to outsource it came around the time of privatisation by copying the aviation industry seen as forward thinking not backward like rail .

 

[FGW_DID]

Can we edit the title please?

Is it the "Train Preperation Team" cleaners who are employed by FGW or the general "station cleaners" who are employed by MITIE that are striking?

The title makes it sound like the former!

Perhaps "MITIE cleaners contracted to FGW to strike" would be more appropriate.

Our TPT cleaners do a damn fine job, albeit undermanned, and do the jobs that Beveridges loves so much - the CET and toilet unblocking!

I have met cleaners employed by MITIE who are hard working and deserve so much better, their work ethic was brilliant (and didn't complain) others on the other hand, thought pushing a broom around at snails pace and doing less then a half arsed job (if they actually turned up) was entitlement to the earth and then some!

 

[AndrewP]

Sorry to sound so harsh but much of what you say is pie in the sky ,Virgin amongst others had their trains cleaned for a fair while on nightshift for minimum wage zero travel discounts or sick pay it's all about the cheapest deal and little else

Its not pie in the sky at all - it all depends on the company you employ and their business model. For the rail industry I would look to see most staff on a standard employment contract with a small proportion on zero hours to cope with demand fluctuation.

Zero hours contracts are not a bad thing but their over use is and sometimes they are a false economy
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I agree completely ,taking most of the cleaning in house would be the best long term solution ,I think the rush to outsource it came around the time of privatisation by copying the aviation industry seen as forward thinking not backward like rail .

You've made a good point here - many outsourced because others were doing it and not because there was a proper business case for themselves - this happened in many industries and not just rail.

Aviation is a good model to look at as the industry is highly focused on certainty of delivery (due to the cost of missing slots rather than anything altruistic) but to achieve this you need the right staff.

There is no reason why in-sourcing can't work if it has the right management and performance standards but there are also some excellent companies out there.

 

[Carlisle]

Cheers for the info ,whilst the rail cleaning companies I have come across seem to be mostly about minimum terms and conditions I also know of poorly run in house operations too

 

[Danny Dire]

Cheers for the info ,whilst the rail cleaning companies I have come across seem to be mostly about minimum terms and conditions I also know of poorly run in house operations too

Totally agree.