Clearing the Air - RDG Report

[Master29]

Myths about travelling by air? I think the RDG may well be a mythical entity themselves for all the good they do.

 

[jfowkes]

That is highly debatable.

Wasn't suggesting otherwise. Obviously I wasn't saying it like it was a law of physics. As my very next sentence says "Long distance driving isn't for everyone" - i.e. some people prefer the train.

 

[Benjwri]

Assuming they can drive, yes. If they can, why wouldn't they just do the whole journey to Edinburgh in the car?

A lot less people have cars in London, so it's not an option for many. It's also 7 hours, significantly longer than rail and air. With average mpg, and assuming you are filling up at non motorway petrol stations, you're shelling out about £70-80 each way. Plus city center parking for multiple nights.

 

[43066]

A lot less people have cars in London, so it's not an option for many. It's also 7 hours, significantly longer than rail and air. With average mpg, and assuming you are filling up at non motorway petrol stations, you're shelling out about £70-80 each way. Plus city center parking for multiple nights.

Even as a car owner in SE London, my choice would still be between flying or taking the train, and that was the case even before I had free leisure travel on LNER. A 7+ hour drive on the UK motorway network is never going to be an enjoyable experience.

 

[physics34]

The Rail Delivery Group is not fit for purpose.. and is just another quango.

Remember if youre not happy with the train service to work, get a closer job.

 

[jthjth]

The Rail Delivery Group is not fit for purpose.. and is just another quango.

Remember if youre not happy with the train service to work, get a closer job.

The aeroplane service also works properly on a Sunday, doesn’t take longer than other days nor dumps you into a bus.
Airlines, UK ones at least, don’t keep going on strike.
An hour in an aeroplane seat is preferable to 4 or 5 hours in a cramped hard standard class seat.

 

[Benjwri]

dumps you into a bus

All I will say is most people's airline horror stories are quite a bit worse than rail ones. There are benefits and disadvantages to both.

 

[jthjth]

All I will say is most people's airline horror stories are quite a bit worse than rail ones. There are benefits and disadvantages to both.

It’s not a case of horror stories, both modes suffer from unplanned disruption. The problem with the railways is they have a lot of planned disruption, especially on a Sunday.
Airlines also don’t issue penalty fares (though perhaps Ryanair might be considered borderline) and rarely threaten to take their customers to court.

 

[Benjwri]

It’s not a case of horror stories, both modes suffer from unplanned disruption. The problem with the railways is they have a lot of planned disruption, especially on a Sunday.
Airlines also don’t issue penalty fares (though perhaps Ryanair might be considered borderline) and rarely threaten to take their customers to court.

Yes although my point is when things go wrong with airlines, they tend to go more wrong. The service in airlines does still very day to day.

On the Penalty Fare issue, they do however overbook and kick people off flights, and people who misbehave even by accident can be arrested. But penalty fares aren’t a thing solely because people can’t physically get on without a ticket. When people have managed it they’ve ended up in far more trouble than a penalty fare.

 

[43066]

The aeroplane service also works properly on a Sunday, doesn’t take longer than other days nor dumps you into a bus.
Airlines, UK ones at least, don’t keep going on strike.
An hour in an aeroplane seat is preferable to 4 or 5 hours in a cramped hard standard class seat.

So why do LNER and Lumo carry more passengers between London and Edinburgh than the airlines?

It’s not a case of horror stories, both modes suffer from unplanned disruption. The problem with the railways is they have a lot of planned disruption, especially on a Sunday.
Airlines also don’t issue penalty fares (though perhaps Ryanair might be considered borderline) and rarely threaten to take their customers to court.

This post reads as if a significant % of rail users end up being penalty fared or reported for prosecution! In reality these issues are encountered by tiny, tiny proportion, almost all of whom are doing something they shouldn’t, and it simply won’t be something the majority of users consider at all. Planned disruption can (by definition) be planned around.

In any case neither of the above “problems” seem to prevent trains carrying more passengers on the domestic UK routes where they genuinely compete with airlines (really only London - Scotland).

All I will say is most people's airline horror stories are quite a bit worse than rail ones. There are benefits and disadvantages to both.

During recent storms didn’t EasyJet end up diverting Scotland - London flights to Paris, where the passengers had to remain overnight? As you say, these issues certainly aren’t exclusive to the railway.

 

[jthjth]

Just before covid there were 3.6 million passenger journeys by air from Scotland to other parts of the UK. (Some of this will be to NI, which isn’t so easy by rail) There will be more by rail, but the airline share is not insignificant - enough for RDG to present questionable statistics in an attempt to attract some of this traffic.

Don‘t underestimate the negative effect of things like penalty fares. News of a friend of a friend getting one on top of an otherwise few pounds fare soon travels and infrequent travellers decide to look elsewhere. It’s a similar effect that the overpriced anytime fares have on people’s perception of train fares.

 

[Benjwri]

Don‘t underestimate the negative effect of things like penalty fares. News of a friend of a friend getting one on top of an otherwise few pounds fare soon travels and infrequent travellers decide to look elsewhere.

I can think of a number of people I know who have been penalty fared for actual fare evasion. The number of people I know who have got one for an honest mistake is slim. What do you suggest is the alternative? Everyone can fare evade?

 

[jthjth]

I can think of a number of people I know who have been penalty fared for actual fare evasion. The number of people I know who have got one for an honest mistake is slim. What do you suggest is the alternative? Everyone can fare evade?

I’m not making any suggestions, I’m pointing out perceptions. It’s up to the railway to solve its problems. I would point out that penalty fares in their current guise are a relatively new phenomenon.

 

[Benjwri]

I’m not making any suggestions, I’m pointing out perceptions. It’s up to the railway to solve its problems. I would point out that penalty fares in their current guise are a relatively new phenomenon.

But a response to an increase in fare evasion. Short of checking every ticket on the train door there are relatively few solutions. Others have down to be ineffective.

 

[telstarbox]

This has just dropped on RDG's LinkedIn so we'll see how that goes with frequent business travellers.

 

[AlterEgo]

This has just dropped on RDG's LinkedIn so we'll see how that goes with frequent business travellers.

I'm surprised they are still promoting it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

During recent storms didn’t EasyJet end up diverting Scotland - London flights to Paris, where the passengers had to remain overnight? As you say, these issues certainly aren’t exclusive to the railway.

I did have a very severe delay (4.5 hours) recently, but I've had very few in my lifetime. Fewer than 10 certainly.

What I have had lots of is mildly unsatisfactory journeys. Unenforced quiet zones, unenforced or undisplayed seat reservations, sloppy delays, failed aircon, rude staff, collapsed seat cushions, dirty trains etc, and all typically at an unreasonably expensive fare. The railway does really need to do better.

 

[Benjwri]

I did have a very severe delay (4.5 hours) recently, but I've had very few in my lifetime. Fewer than 10 certainly.

What I have had lots of is mildly unsatisfactory journeys. Unenforced quiet zones, unenforced or undisplayed seat reservations, sloppy delays, failed aircon, rude staff, collapsed seat cushions, dirty trains etc, and all typically at an unreasonably expensive fare. The railway does really need to do better.

In my opinion most of these issues aren’t limited to the railway though.

Airlines don’t even have quiet zones, and at least they normally save you from the likes of crying babies. I’ve had plenty of delays on airlines. I will give you failed aircon to be fair. However rude staff is something I’ve had far more issues with on airlines, however this is very dependant on things like location. Dirty trains is true, although difficult to control given the amount of people getting on and off, and I have seen some horribly dirty planes.

 

[185143]

It’s not a case of horror stories, both modes suffer from unplanned disruption. The problem with the railways is they have a lot of planned disruption, especially on a Sunday.
Airlines also don’t issue penalty fares (though perhaps Ryanair might be considered borderline) and rarely threaten to take their customers to court.

In fairness, neither do the Anglo-Scottish TOCs, with the exception of TPE.

And as for the comment below yours about misbehaving, people clearly do get arrested on the railway for misbehaving or else the British Transport Police wouldn't have cause to exist.

 

[Benjwri]

And as for the comment below yours about misbehaving, people clearly do get arrested on the railway for misbehaving or else the British Transport Police wouldn't have cause to exist.

My point wasn’t that people don’t get arrested, but the bar to be arrested is pretty much the same as in any other aspect of life. It is a fair bit lower to get in trouble at an airport/on a plane.

 

[Energy]

If it's good value, you generally don't need to tell people...

 

[185143]

My point wasn’t that people don’t get arrested, but the bar to be arrested is pretty much the same as in any other aspect of life. It is a fair bit lower to get in trouble at an airport/on a plane.

Fair. That's true on all counts.

Vaping on a train is at worst likely to be met with a telling off by the traincrew, but far more likely to be accepted as common practice. Whereas vaping on an aircraft is highly likely to see Police attention on arrival.

 

[Class 170101]

The rail industry misses the income from those business travellers who will think nothing about paying for a full fat anytime return as they charge it as expenses.

Not entirely sure with Teams etc that these people will come back en masse anytime soon

 

[HSTEd]

Airlines don’t even have quiet zones, and at least they normally save you from the likes of crying babies. I’ve had plenty of delays on airlines.

Putting up with a crying baby or similar for an hour is rather different than for four hours though.

 

[Kite159]

Putting up with a crying baby or similar for an hour is rather different than for four hours though.

At least on a train there is more potential to move away from the likes of a crying baby or a someone playing videos out loud on a train than on a plane.