Clergy and railways.

[Calthrop]

Yes, I agree - his writing style and 'views' are very jarring to the modern reader. I remember reading an article of his about train performance in Belgium, complaining bitterly about some sloppy running he'd encountered and laced with some unpleasant xenophobic remarks. Poor running in Britain was, of course, unheard of.

I suppose he'd be likely to take a dim view of Belgium: with its being a strongly Catholic country, and his having -- showing up quite often in his writings -- very much of a "down" on that variety of Christianity; I recall from one of his books, recounting rail travel by him in south-west France, with some gratuitous pretty nasty stuff about what Lourdes is chiefly known for. Whatever one's personal views, "there's a time and place ..."

What has really, above all, inclined me to dislike Allen; is a "throwaway" remark of his, in some railway piece touching on experiences in his own life: to the effect that he, "like all good men" -- rushed, upon the outbreak of war in 1914, to join Britain's armed forces. Hey, Cecil old fruit -- what's happened to Christian charity and "love your enemies" (in this context, people "on your own side" whom you may see as traitors)?

 

[30907]

(My bolding) -- this was, I gather, the "day job" of Morgan; who was a serious, though un-bigoted, (lay) Catholic. I have tried one of his detective novels. Whilst for me, his non-fiction-re-foreign-parts writings (especially The End of the Line) are totally magical: I found the 'tec novel -- not awful, but fairly humdrum; don't think that I even managed to finish it, and was not encouraged to try any more such by him.

Just to say you were quoting 181 not me about Morgan (whom I've never read!). Not that I object

 

[Calthrop]

Just to say you were quoting 181 not me about Morgan (whom I've never read!). Not that I object

Sorry about the mess-up -- which I honestly think was the computer's mistaken doing, not my deliberate ditto: but as I often say, I am likely the most computer-clueless computer owner on the planet -- anything which can go awry in my hands, re this gear ...

 

[Gloster]

Sorry about the mess-up -- which I honestly think was the computer's mistaken doing, not my deliberate ditto: but as I often say, I am likely the most computer-clueless computer owner on the planet -- anything which can go awry in my hands, re this gear ...

You are not the most computer-illiterate person about: it is a great risk to all when I go near one. There is that little matter of Heathrow Airport’s power supplies when I tried to renew my library books.

Another clergyman with railway and crime fiction interests was Canon Victor Whitechurch, who from the end of the nineteenth century was writing crime stories, some with his eccentric railwayac Thorpe Hazell. I am afraid that Whitechurch’s work was variable: in one story he admits to making a change to railway signalling practices to get the plot to fit. He also displays a strong dislike for trade-unionists, something far from rare in the clergy of those days, and is also thoroughly disparaging and offensive about foreigners. I do think that this seems to be his personal attitude, not just pandering to his readers‘ prejudices.

Another who was brought up in religion, even if not a priest, was Freeman Wills Crofts. His widowed mother married a priest when he was four and he later attended religiously inclined schools; one of his very few non-fiction (if it can be so described) books was on the gospels. His religion does not really appear in his works, beyond the straightforward belief that those who do wrong should pay the penalty, but he has a far more mature attitude towards foreigners and the only time the Bolshevics, that hate group of so many inter-war writers, appear they act honestly.

 

[urbophile]

Outing myself as another ordained railway nerd. I hesitate to say 'enthusiast' because I can't get excited about technicalities, but there is something about the connectedness of a railway system which appeals on a deeper level. But the fascination of many clergy-people* for model railways might also have to do with being able to be in complete control of all that goes on, unlike as in a parish.

*historically for obvious reasons these have usually been clergymen. Female train enthusiasts generally are in the minority I think, but I wonder if there are proportionately more of them within the clergy these days.

 

[Calthrop]

Another clergyman with railway and crime fiction interests was Canon Victor Whitechurch... He also displays a strong dislike for trade-unionists, something far from rare in the clergy of those days, and is also thoroughly disparaging and offensive about foreigners. I do think that this seems to be his personal attitude, not just pandering to his readers‘ prejudices.

Ah, well -- "Christians are not perfect, only forgiven" -- I should probably endeavour to be more charitable toward old CJA ...

Another who was brought up in religion, even if not a priest, was Freeman Wills Crofts. His widowed mother married a priest when he was four and he later attended religiously inclined schools; one of his very few non-fiction (if it can be so described) books was on the gospels. His religion does not really appear in his works, beyond the straightforward belief that those who do wrong should pay the penalty, but he has a far more mature attitude towards foreigners and the only time the Bolshevics, that hate group of so many inter-war writers, appear they act honestly.

One takes it that Crofts thus -- dwelling and "doing his stuff" in Northern Ireland -- duly identified with the Protestant majority there; but re your last sentence, it can be reckoned that he'd have been one of the number thereof, who wished for and tried to work for peace and harmony in those parts between the different "brands" of Christian; and for a fair deal for the Catholics.

The then newly-on-the-scene Bolsheviks certainly did get a lot of "stick" -- with some justification, I feel -- from literary folks of that era. There come to mind, verses in comment thereon by a writer of the time; I forget who, but he clearly felt otherwise -- prompted by H. Rider Haggard, and Rudyard Kipling (the latter surprisingly broad-minded about some things), who were friends and corresponded with each other; they were certainly "anti" the far left, and Soviet Russia, and let their views be known.

'Every Bolsh is a blackguard,' said Kipling to Haggard / 'And given to tippling,' said Haggard to Kipling / 'And a blooming outsider,' said Rudyard to Rider / 'Their domain is a blood-yard,' said Rider to Rudyard' ... and so on in that vein.

 

[WAO]

A modern radical mindset is not the best basis to judge CJA and contemporaries' background and response to the 1914 war. Then, the agression of Germany - its "frightfullness" in murdering c6500 French and Belgian civilians (Louvain) early on was a spur to joining up,even though in ignorance of the coming war of attrition. Also the Edwardian middle class mindset was of comfortable (perhaps partly justified) superiority, although industry had been declining since 1870 and the Evangelical and Quaker drivers of reform were by then spent forces. Other authors of the time (Capt W E Johns of "Biggles") show similar triumphalist traits.

The CofE clergy up to the '60's were usually graduates of the "best" universities, highly cultured and instinctively attracted to the rule and ritual based culture and public service ethos of the railways, with its echoes of social cohesion, uniform, duty and integrity. Even today, these themes attract Christians to join (and stay) in the industry, probably regarding privatisation as the "works of darkness". I can list four senior officers in my own parish church, all silver and gold passes, with several others at various grades.

There are some other apposite quotes, such as the Queen of Sheba visiting King Solomon, with "a very great train", hence the SUBs' nickname!

There is also a harvest hymn - "We plough the fields..", which has a line, "He lights the Evening Star"!

WAO

 

[urbophile]

I wonder if anyone has done an actual survey to test the theory that there would be a large amount of common ground in a Venn diagram of altar servers, church bellringers, real ale fanatics and railway enthusiasts. In particular, for the last category, volunteers on preserved railways.

 

[Springs Branch]

I once saw a suggestion that railway hobbies tended to appeal to men of the cloth because of the many similarities between railway operations and a cleric's day job. At least, railway operations as they were up until a couple of generations.

I can't give a reference to where I saw that idea (or fully recall the details) but a minute or two of thought suggests similarities like:-

- Both railways and the established church are governed by a large, thick Rule Book, which specifies indisputable instructions on how most things in day-to-day life shall or shall not be done.
- Other subordinate texts then followed on (General Appendix, New Testament*, Book of Common Prayer, Sectional Appendices and Local Instructions).
- Relevant and important clauses from the voluminous Rule Book had to be committed to memory and able to be recited, chapter and verse. One may be tested on these periodically.
- Some of the rules and regulations in the big, thick Rule Book are archaic and outdated with little relevance to modern life but remain because 'it has always been done like that'.
- In reality, certain rules & regulations were quietly adjusted or ignored to pragmatically allow for 'local operating conditions'.
- There was a definite, clearly defined hierarchy, with associated costumes. But on a day-to-day basis many operatives worked entirely on their own initiative without direct supervision by their line management. However, somewhere unseen, there was always the presence of an all-knowing, all-powerful authority known as Control.
- Maverick individuals with their own opinions and ideas of how things should operate were not welcomed by the hierarchy.
- Sometimes, if you were lucky, it was an easy, relaxing job with nothing much happening for long periods (if you believe TV dramas, incumbents of rural parishes often had time to help various police inspectors solve mysterious murders). But there was a well-established timetable for when you knew you'd need to be on top form (Sunday Communion / Mass, or arrival of the London Express).
- It could be tricky to get a foot in the door at first and knowing someone on the inside or having a 'face that fits' can help getting the plum jobs. But once in, you were in for life, unless you do something especially catastrophic. Even then, the organisation might have made some attempt to cover up on your behalf, largely to cover its own ar*e.


* - waiting for a member of the God Squad to tell me why the New Testament is not a subordinate text in the Christian flavour of religion.

 

[WAO]

* - waiting for a member of the God Squad to tell me why the New Testament is not a subordinate text in the Christian flavour of religion.

You wrote truer than you may have realised.

The railways' big black book/s appeared well after railways started running as a result of crashes, explosions and the like. The early Church had few manuscripts and most couldn't read them anyway; letters/writings were circulated and copied by hand for reading out loud. Their collation into the New tesrtament took place in the fourth century, prompted by Constantine. He wasn't a Christian till his deathbed but thought (as many Romans did) that Christianity was a lot better than their present Pantheon. Christians were (normally) moral, honest, and would die horribly in the Arena for their Faith and Master, which no Roman would do. Unfortunately they were mostly Greek not Latin speaking until their faith became fashionable. Constantine therefore began to regulate (shades of the Board of Trade (and Plantations), with HMRI and the RCH to boot) through the Council of Ephesus in AD 325, ordering 50 copies of the NT, using the core accepted 27 books, to be (expensively hand) copied and distributed for open access throughout the Empire.

The Early Church was like early railways, springing up locally, extending, sometimes competing, forming larger groupings and then having to work together as a whole, with plenty of conflict (Tebay, Euxton Jn?). The Roman Church even got a "single directing mind" in the Pope but this was not accepted by the Orthodox, hence the 1520mm gauge!

Enjoy the sunshine

WAO

 

[Calthrop]

The Roman Church even got a "single directing mind" in the Pope but this was not accepted by the Orthodox, hence the 1520mm gauge!

I was hoping to follow up with a "funny", based on the expression "the straight and narrow" -- if only the Trans Australia line, with the world's longest stretch of straight track (two hundred and something miles, isn't it?) had been built to that country's 3ft. 6in. gauge, instead of four-eight-and-a-half ...

 

[WAO]

You may be thinking of:

"for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Brunel (and GWR shareholders), please note.

1067mm rules, OK

WAO

 

[ThirteenArches]

1067mm rules, OK

Blasphemy!!!!

1600mm. With 914mm a close second.

Here's a story for you. My mother, a devout Catholic (though heretical on any examinable point of doctrine) kept house for the priests in the church over the road for a brief period, after the sour- faced old biddy who did for them went off to Purgatory. And when she went into Father K*****'s bedroom one day, with a view to vacuuming, dusting and polishing, she was greeted with the sight of the good priest sitting on his bed, stark naked, playing with his...
........................................................................................................................................................
train set.

 

[Calthrop]

You may be thinking of:

"for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

I was aware of the confusion, re this figurative bit, between "strait" (old-fashioned word meaning the same as "narrow"); and "straight" = not bendy -- many folks have as it were conflated, into the expression "the straight and narrow path" -- doesn't Bunyan in Pilgrim's Progress, do some feeding into this?

Brunel (and GWR shareholders), please note.

Bryan Morgan again (I probably rate as a world-class bore about that guy) -- in one of his books (forget which, off top of head -- not among his most celebrated) Morgan comes up jocularly with a similar "aside", re GWR 7ft. and "broad is the way, that ..." Among Morgan's fairly numerous personal quirks, was a dislike of anything in any way broader than four-eight-and-a-half -- shows up here and there in The End of the Line: he didn't think it evil as such, it was just very much not to his personal taste.

1067mm rules, OK

Echoin' @ThirteenArches 's words: Blasphemy, fer sartin. (Though what in tarnation is this "mm" garbage?) Now listen up, @WAO, son -- hyar in the good ol' US of A: if goin' fer narrow gauge, the right way is our glorious, robust, straight-shootin' three-foot -- none of yer decadent, perverse Limey 3ft. 6in. trash ...

 

[WAO]

Wonderful post.

3'6"/1067mm was known as the "Cape" or "Colonial" gauge. If you lot in the South of British North America hadn't jumped ship in the 1770's you could have had this blessing conferred upon you instead of your home grown spindly 3' gauge. At least you conformed to standard gauge for your main system.

You could always put things right by consigning the Donald by express passenger train to Ottawa, there to kiss hands with the Governor General and take the Oath.

WAO

 

[Calthrop]

Wonderful post.

3'6"/1067mm was known as the "Cape" or "Colonial" gauge. If you lot in the South of British North America hadn't jumped ship in the 1770's you could have had this blessing conferred upon you instead of your home grown spindly 3' gauge. At least you conformed to standard gauge for your main system.

You could always put things right by consigning the Donald by express passenger train to Ottawa, there to kiss hands with the Governor General and take the Oath.

WAO

My italics above -- that was in fact, a bit of a near-run thing. In our earlier days of railroads, there were assorted rival gauges: as well as four-eight-and-a-half, "great carload lots" of 5ft. -- especially down South -- plus a number of other weird widths. If the Confederacy had successfully managed to secede in that 1860s business, who knows how things might have sorted out ...?

You, suh, are more charitable than me, as regards that particular gentleman; my fantasy involves a one-way ticket for him, to someplace none too salubrious in the more southerly parts of our dual-continental-plus-islands, land-mass.

 

[neilmc]

I remember a stirring religious poster I saw in a church once. Basically it was the narrow road to heaven and the broad way to hell as described earlier. Lots of the hellbound were of course carousing but they were also seen to catch a Sunday train somewhere, maybe this was some kind of ancient free presbyterian poster because I can't remember a time in England when there were no Sunday trains, indeed I needed one to get back to university when I came home for the weekend.

 

[Calthrop]

I remember a stirring religious poster I saw in a church once. Basically it was the narrow road to heaven and the broad way to hell as described earlier. Lots of the hellbound were of course carousing but they were also seen to catch a Sunday train somewhere, maybe this was some kind of ancient free presbyterian poster because I can't remember a time in England when there were no Sunday trains, indeed I needed one to get back to university when I came home for the weekend.

With what is now Northern Ireland having long been reckoned -- re its Protestant element -- a stronghold of extreme sabbatarianism; perhaps a bit surprisingly: so far as I know, Sunday rail passenger workings have never been, there, a "no-no" -- even post-partition. Severe Protestant types in those parts have, however, long deplored this feature -- there lurks in mind, a quote from one such, to the effect of "every whistle from a Sunday train, is echoed by a shout in Hell". One reflects that the hideous Armagh rail accident of 1889 (proceeding speedily from which, continuous brake became obligatory on all British Isles passenger trains) involved chiefly, a Sunday excursion train to the seaside at Warrenpoint -- the imagination comes up with sentiments from grim-and-harsh Protestant characters, along the lines of "an excursion train on a Sunday, to go and have seaside fun -- asking for trouble, or what?"

 

[65477]

Although late to this thread...

In the 1970's one of the long standing items on my wish list was to travel on the main line behind A4 Union of South Africa, which at that point only tended to work trains in Scotland. Some when in 1980 to day trip was advertised from Euston to Perth with steam haulage Mossend - Perth and return it seemed the perfect opportunity. Including travel and back to London this was over 20 hours of continuous train travel. This was my fiancées first taste of such trips - she already knew of my intertest in railways. We have now been married for over 44 years and although I would not say that she is a railway enthusiast, she tends to be the one who suggests days out on trains. The ultilate being a 10 day tour round Europe by train. The relevance to this thread is that she is now a retired vicar!

Both as a result of that and also my longer term involvement with the church, I have known many members of the clergy from curates to Bishops and I although many have known my interest in railways I don't think any of them fall into the category of railway enthusiast.. Personally I don't think that they are over represented within the railway enthusiast fraternity it's just like Doctors, the clergy are more obvious as they tend to use there titles. Having said that I currently know 2 ordained ministers and 3 lay ministers within one particular group which is about 6%.

My last contribution is that I have what must be the ultimate book on the subject. With the snappy title of "The travellers guide from Death to Life" it starts by using a trip from Aberdeen to London on the North British Railway as an example of the Christian journey. Within it's 314 pages there are a number of other passages that use a railway journey as an analogy for the Christian life.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Allegedly there was the connection between timetables and religious texts - a little fantastical in places. A popular game amongst the clergy in the days of a large network was finding the fastest route between obscure station A and obscure station B with bonuses for the minimum changes etc.

And an episode of the BBC TV sitcom "All Gas and Gaiters" centred on exactly that. (Or possibly it was a running gag across several episodes - I admit the game is the only thing I remember about the series apart from the main characters)

 

[Clarence Yard]

Or the Rev Peter Denny, who scratch built one of the best model railways ever built - Buckingham Great Central.

Someone up thread mentioned the Railway Mission. In the KX area, the London City Mission covered all the stations and depots. The missionary was based in Culross Hall, in the tenement block that used to sit to the west of KX station and, amongst other things, he used to do pastoral work for the railway staff in the area. He used to conduct Sunday & other services at Culross Hall as part of his ministry.

When I was at Hornsey ODM (the old steam depot) in the 1980’s, I was a depot contact for the “Mission Man” as we called him. He was, in our case, an ex-fleet street printer who “saw the light” and went to work for the LCM. I ran a periodic collection (an envelope on a clipboard attached to a girder post in the workshop!) and he used to come in, collect it and hear from me and the other shop reps about anyone who was struggling with health or other issues or was about to retire. He used to put some details of the latter in his regular little booklet magazine, which we used to get a few copies of.

He used to visit some of our sadder cases and give our admin and us some valuable intel on how well or otherwise they were doing. It could be very lonely if you were sick and living alone in a north London flat. Then, if it helped, I might do a collection for that member of staff, which the Missionary would give to him.

It didn’t matter what religion you were or were not, the Missionary did such good pastoral work out there that the collections were always a decent amount.

Being on depot is like being in a big family and the “Mission Man” was definitely part of our family. Even today, if I see a LCM stall on my travels in London, I always put a note into their box.

 

[urbophile]

The Community of the Resurrection (an Anglican monastic order based at Mirfield in West Yorkshire), has always numbered train enthusiasts among its past and present members.They even run a Railway Retreat each year (open, of course, to the public). One of the attractions is that the monastery is situated on the hillside overlooking the Huddersfield-Leeds section of the Transpennine main line. The current issue of their quarterly magazine features an oil painting of a 1950s steam express seen from the Community garden, and an article by a friend of the Community who is a former BR driver.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I remember a stirring religious poster I saw in a church once. Basically it was the narrow road to heaven and the broad way to hell as described earlier. Lots of the hellbound were of course carousing but they were also seen to catch a Sunday train somewhere, maybe this was some kind of ancient free presbyterian poster.

Local pulpits made much of the fact that the victims of the Tay Bridge disaster were travelling on the Sabbath

And an episode of the BBC TV sitcom "All Gas and Gaiters" centred on exactly that. (Or possibly it was a running gag across several episodes - I admit the game is the only thing I remember about the series apart from the main characters)

I think it was a single episode.

 

[unslet]

I wonder if anyone has done an actual survey to test the theory that there would be a large amount of common ground in a Venn diagram of altar servers, church bellringers, real ale fanatics and railway enthusiasts. In particular, for the last category, volunteers on preserved railways.

I would suggest that followers of the church,railways and cricket have a lot of shared devotees. Perhaps a slightly obsessive nature,dare I say?

 

[norbitonflyer]

*historically for obvious reasons these have usually been clergymen. Female train enthusiasts generally are in the minority I think, but I wonder if there are proportionately more of them within the clergy these days.

Not a member of the clergy, but Dorothy L Sayers was the daughter of a clergyman and wrote a number of books on theology and plays on religious themes, as well as her better-known detective stories about Lord Peter Wimsey. One of the Wimsey series - Five Red Herrings - required a lot of research into the minutiae of ticket inspection and clipping, and the plot was based on the actual railway timetables of the LMS (former GSWR) network current in 1931.

I would suggest that followers of the church,railways and cricket have a lot of shared devotees. Perhaps a slightly obsessive nature,dare I say?

There are a number of railway enthusiasts at my church but the vicar, despite being related to a well-known railway engineer from "Big Four" days, is not one of them as far as I am aware. He does like cricket though.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Or the Rev Peter Denny, who scratch built one of the best model railways ever built - Buckingham Great Central.

Someone up thread mentioned the Railway Mission. In the KX area, the London City Mission covered all the stations and depots. The missionary was based in Culross Hall, in the tenement block that used to sit to the west of KX station and, amongst other things, he used to do pastoral work for the railway staff in the area. He used to conduct Sunday & other services at Culross Hall as part of his ministry.

When I was at Hornsey ODM (the old steam depot) in the 1980’s, I was a depot contact for the “Mission Man” as we called him. He was, in our case, an ex-fleet street printer who “saw the light” and went to work for the LCM. I ran a periodic collection (an envelope on a clipboard attached to a girder post in the workshop!) and he used to come in, collect it and hear from me and the other shop reps about anyone who was struggling with health or other issues or was about to retire. He used to put some details of the latter in his regular little booklet magazine, which we used to get a few copies of.

He used to visit some of our sadder cases and give our admin and us some valuable intel on how well or otherwise they were doing. It could be very lonely if you were sick and living alone in a north London flat. Then, if it helped, I might do a collection for that member of staff, which the Missionary would give to him.

It didn’t matter what religion you were or were not, the Missionary did such good pastoral work out there that the collections were always a decent amount.

Being on depot is like being in a big family and the “Mission Man” was definitely part of our family. Even today, if I see a LCM stall on my travels in London, I always put a note into their box.

There used to be a little Railway Mission chapel near the station in Crewe, and in return for a donation you could get a calendar each year featuring some excellent historical rail photos. Each month was accompanied by an uplifting text, railway themed of course. I'm not sure if 'straight and narrow' appeared but there was certainly lots of things about 'journeys through life etc'.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I think it was a single episode.

Yes, it was a single episode of 'All Gas and Gaiters'. Sadly, it's not one of the few surviving episodes but it's available to listen to as part of the later radio version of the series:

 

[Taunton]

Possibly it was more apparent that there were clerics associated with railway writings in the days when names of contributors were formally listed, starting with "Mr", or the archaic "Messrs" for the plural, but for churchmen they were given their title of "The Rev". So you always knew. There was a regular magazine photo contributor (and book author) who was "The Rev. A. W. V. Mace". All nicely punctuated.

 

[Rescars]

You may be thinking of:

"for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Brunel (and GWR shareholders), please note.

1067mm rules, OK

WAO

As a follow-on, after the abandonment of the South Devon Railway's "atmospheric caper", the engine house at Starcross was used as a Wesleyan chapel for more than 90 years!

 

[Welshman]

The Community of the Resurrection (an Anglican monastic order based at Mirfield in West Yorkshire), has always numbered train enthusiasts among its past and present members.They even run a Railway Retreat each year (open, of course, to the public). One of the attractions is that the monastery is situated on the hillside overlooking the Huddersfield-Leeds section of the Transpennine main line. The current issue of their quarterly magazine features an oil painting of a 1950s steam express seen from the Community garden, and an article by a friend of the Community who is a former BR driver.

Someone once said the rural C of E was rather like the GWR in pre-Beeching days. The infrastructure was there, but crumbling, and an enthusiastic faithful staff provided a regular service to each village no matter how small, day in and day out in all weathers, regardless of any takers.

I was ordained by Bishop Eric Treacy in 1971, and many are the tales of business meetings at Church House coming to a temporary halt as the London express drew out over the Wakefield Arches, and the Chairman's mind drifted elsewhere.

I spent many a retreat watching the trains at The Community of the Resurrection, but in my day, they were Trans-Pennine diesel units, not steam. The view from those seats will be very different now, with the Trans-Pennine Upgrade works progressing.