Coaches/Portions locked out of use and then unlocked at later stations

[Clansman]

Heading back from Blackpool North the other day on the 19:01 through to Preston, formed of 6 coaches - 2 x 331s. The rear 331 was locked out of use and everyone was advised to board the front. At Preston, the locked unit was then opened again (and the service continued through to Manchester).

How often does this happen for passenger services? I am aware that when services are dead then it is not uncommon to lock a unit out of use for the entire duration of a journey, but I've not came across a situation where one is locked and then unlocked midservice.

Anyone know why this is, or if this is common?

 

[PHILIPE]

Heading back from Blackpool North the other day on the 19:01 through to Preston, formed of 6 coaches - 2 x 331s. The rear 331 was locked out of use and everyone was advised to board the front. At Preston, the locked unit was then opened again.

How often does this happen for passenger services? I am aware that when services are dead then it is not uncommon to lock a unit out of use for the entire duration of a journey, but I've not came across a situation where one is locked and then unlocked midservice.

Anyone know why this is, or if this is common?

A regular reason is too long for the platform

 

[Scotrail314209]

A regular reason is too long for the platform

Might've been an SDO problem.

I've been in the rear of a 6 car 331 from Blackpool to Preston with all carriages in use.

 

[Clansman]

That's initially what I thought, but it only calls at Poulton on the way, which can accomodate all 6.

 

[AverageTD]

About 2 years ago, I travelled between Southampton and Reading on a 220+221 formation. The front 220 was locked so everyone travelled in the 221, then at Reading, the 220 was unlocked and all 9 cars were available to passengers. I wondered if it was anything to do with trying to keep a portion clear for higher demand stations and reducing dwell times?

 

[507020]

I’ve seen this on the Kirkby line. When they were running some of the last few 142s from Kirkby to Manchester, coupled to a 150 or 156, the 142 was locked out of use until I believe Wigan, with the guard sometimes travelling in the 142. Now the 142s are withdrawn, this practice continues with a pair of Sprinters then forming the Manchester to Blackburn service via Todmorden, with all 4 carriages being available between Blackburn and Wigan, but only a single unit between Wigan and Kirkby. If both units miraculously happen to have a gangway, sometimes the doors only open on a single unit, but the other unit is accessible to passengers on the Kirkby line via the gangway.

 

[iphone76]

Used to happen on the Southminster line where the rear 4 coaches of 12 were locked out / opened up at Wickford on a morning and evening peak train.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Happens on the Caterham line with eight car trains having the rear four locked when heading down the branch and the rear four (which were the front four) locked when heading back north. Platform length is the issue.

 

[scrapy]

No obvious reason for these carriages to be locked out on this particular service. Three possible scenarios I can think of.

After Preston; Leyland can only accommodate the front 3 1/2 coaches (4 coaches actually but due to SDO Door control positions the rear door on the 4th coach can't be used). If the train is lightly loaded from Blackpool then the guard may have an put everyone in the front set to avoid confusion. At Preston they may have deemed it too busy and opened up the full train.

Has also happened before from Blackpool where a train has needed cleaning due to vomit where by cleaners have travelled on the service to Preston from Blackpool rather than delaying the train at Blackpool with affected portion not in use.

Very unlikely but a special stop order at Salwick which i think would put the entire back set off the platform. If the guard is in the front set then passengers can't travel in the back.

I’ve seen this on the Kirkby line. When they were running some of the last few 142s from Kirkby to Manchester, coupled to a 150 or 156, the 142 was locked out of use until I believe Wigan, with the guard sometimes travelling in the 142. Now the 142s are withdrawn, this practice continues with a pair of Sprinters then forming the Manchester to Blackburn service via Todmorden, with all 4 carriages being available between Blackburn and Wigan, but only a single unit between Wigan and Kirkby. If both units miraculously happen to have a gangway, sometimes the doors only open on a single unit, but the other unit is accessible to passengers on the Kirkby line via the gangway.

This is due to short platforms. Orrell, Upholland and Rainford cannot accommodate 4 carriages in either direction. 150s and 156s don't have SDO. If all 4 coaches in use towards Kirkby the guard will be using their local door only. I think there is a local instruction that towards Manchester on leaving Kirkby only the front 2 coaches may be used until Pemberton/Wigan (depends where time allowance is on that particular service for unlocking)

 

[Aictos]

Used to happen all the time when 8 car Class 317s worked Cambridge to London as the train would arrive at Royston with the rear portion locked out of use because of the short platforms at the villages and the platform staff would unlock the rear portion and confirm once done with driver.

 

[superjohn]

About 2 years ago, I travelled between Southampton and Reading on a 220+221 formation. The front 220 was locked so everyone travelled in the 221, then at Reading, the 220 was unlocked and all 9 cars were available to passengers. I wondered if it was anything to do with trying to keep a portion clear for higher demand stations and reducing dwell times?

Could be a staffing thing. Perhaps extra crew boarded at Reading enabling the other unit to be used.

 

[Sleepy]

Could be a staffing thing. Perhaps extra crew boarded at Reading enabling the other unit to be used.

Cross Country require a safety crit. staff member in both units.

 

[507020]

No obvious reason for these carriages to be locked out on this particular service. Three possible scenarios I can think of.

After Preston; Leyland can only accommodate the front 3 1/2 coaches (4 coaches actually but due to SDO Door control positions the rear door on the 4th coach can't be used). If the train is lightly loaded from Blackpool then the guard may have an put everyone in the front set to avoid confusion. At Preston they may have deemed it too busy and opened up the full train.

Has also happened before from Blackpool where a train has needed cleaning due to vomit where by cleaners have travelled on the service to Preston from Blackpool rather than delaying the train at Blackpool with affected portion not in use.

Very unlikely but a special stop order at Salwick which i think would put the entire back set off the platform. If the guard is in the front set then passengers can't travel in the back.

I once boarded the rear portion of a double 331 at Horwich Parkway, where the guard who was in the rear portion needed to talk to the driver about something, but the intercom wouldn’t work, so he had to get off and walk to the front of the train to tell the driver that the intercom had failed and find out what the driver wanted, before walking back to the rear portion so passengers could travel in it, delaying the service, but it made up time before Preston.

This is due to short platforms. Orrell, Upholland and Rainford cannot accommodate 4 carriages in either direction. 150s and 156s don't have SDO. If all 4 coaches in use towards Kirkby the guard will be using their local door only. I think there is a local instruction that towards Manchester on leaving Kirkby only the front 2 coaches may be used until Pemberton/Wigan (depends where time allowance is on that particular service for unlocking)

So when the Kirkby line was run with 142s, the guard would travel in the 142, using only the local door of the 142 to perform duties, releasing the doors of the 150 from there, with the 142 available for passenger use from Pemberton/Wigan for the onward journey to Atherton and Manchester.

Now it is run with a pair of walk through 150/2s, the doors of the rear portion can simply be locked out of use and unlocked by the guard at Pemberton or Wigan. This makes sense, with the fully walkable train a superior solution.

Northern should have a convention that only 150/0 and 150/1s are to run mainly alone, with 150/2s to be coupled to other 150/2s, 156s and 158s to create a fully walkable train. Too often I see 150/2s or 156s working alone while other 150/2s, 156s and 158s are coupled to non-gangway 150/1s. Previously there were frequently 150/2s working with both 150/1s and 142s, rather than having a walkable pair of 150/2s and the 150/1 with the 142, but then it isn’t called a random unit generator for nothing!

Rainford (which is technically in St Helens, Merseyside) should be getting lengthened to accommodate an 8 car 777 in the not too distant future.

 

[Bevan Price]

No obvious reason for these carriages to be locked out on this particular service. Three possible scenarios I can think of.

After Preston; Leyland can only accommodate the front 3 1/2 coaches (4 coaches actually but due to SDO Door control positions the rear door on the 4th coach can't be used). If the train is lightly loaded from Blackpool then the guard may have an put everyone in the front set to avoid confusion. At Preston they may have deemed it too busy and opened up the full train.

Has also happened before from Blackpool where a train has needed cleaning due to vomit where by cleaners have travelled on the service to Preston from Blackpool rather than delaying the train at Blackpool with affected portion not in use.

Very unlikely but a special stop order at Salwick which i think would put the entire back set off the platform. If the guard is in the front set then passengers can't travel in the back.


This is due to short platforms. Orrell, Upholland and Rainford cannot accommodate 4 carriages in either direction. 150s and 156s don't have SDO. If all 4 coaches in use towards Kirkby the guard will be using their local door only. I think there is a local instruction that towards Manchester on leaving Kirkby only the front 2 coaches may be used until Pemberton/Wigan (depends where time allowance is on that particular service for unlocking)

Leyland is a stupid situation. The platform structures are quite long, but the southern ends have been neglected and allowed to become overgrown with vegetation, with access blocked to passengers. It should be quite simple to remove the vegetation and restore the full lengths of the platforms for use by passengers.

 

[507020]

Leyland is a stupid situation. The platform structures are quite long, but the southern ends have been neglected and allowed to become overgrown with vegetation, with access blocked to passengers. It should be quite simple to remove the vegetation and restore the full lengths of the platforms for use by passengers.

There are hundreds of stations where platforms have disused portions like this. Virtually all of them should be cleaned up and reopened to passengers when future train lengths require.

 

[DanNCL]

Coach B on a Class 91+Mark 4 set is locked out of use on 1A13 06:55 Skipton - London Kings Cross until after departure from Shipley.

 

[scrapy]

I once boarded the rear portion of a double 331 at Horwich Parkway, where the guard who was in the rear portion needed to talk to the driver about something, but the intercom wouldn’t work, so he had to get off and walk to the front of the train to tell the driver that the intercom had failed and find out what the driver wanted, before walking back to the rear portion so passengers could travel in it, delaying the service, but it made up time before Preston.

So when the Kirkby line was run with 142s, the guard would travel in the 142, using only the local door of the 142 to perform duties, releasing the doors of the 150 from there, with the 142 available for passenger use from Pemberton/Wigan for the onward journey to Atherton and Manchester.

Now it is run with a pair of walk through 150/2s, the doors of the rear portion can simply be locked out of use and unlocked by the guard at Pemberton or Wigan. This makes sense, with the fully walkable train a superior solution.

Northern should have a convention that only 150/0 and 150/1s are to run mainly alone, with 150/2s to be coupled to other 150/2s, 156s and 158s to create a fully walkable train. Too often I see 150/2s or 156s working alone while other 150/2s, 156s and 158s are coupled to non-gangway 150/1s. Previously there were frequently 150/2s working with both 150/1s and 142s, rather than having a walkable pair of 150/2s and the 150/1 with the 142, but then it isn’t called a random unit generator for nothing!

Rainford (which is technically in St Helens, Merseyside) should be getting lengthened to accommodate an 8 car 777 in the not too distant future.

On 150s/156s there is no way of isolating passenger doors, it's either full release or nothing. If coupled guard cannot release one unit and not the other so any carriages not platformed need the doors individualy mechanically locked. As these doors cannot then be used in an emergency it is not permitted to have passengers travelling in that coach so whether or not they have a gangway through to other platformed carriages, they still cannot be used.

Newer stock allows guards/ASDO to isolate doors rather than actually locking them so the emergency door realease still works even if the door is not available for passenger use.

 

[_toommm_]

On 150s/156s there is no way of isolating passenger doors, it's either full release or nothing. If coupled guard cannot release one unit and not the other so any carriages not platformed need the doors individualy mechanically locked. As these doors cannot then be used in an emergency it is not permitted to have passengers travelling in that coach so whether or not they have a gangway through to other platformed carriages, they still cannot be used.

Newer stock allows guards/ASDO to isolate doors rather than actually locking them so the emergency door realease still works even if the door is not available for passenger use.

The solution to lack of SDO on the 150s was for the guard to open their door, then go outside and use the local door switches on every door that was accommodated. I’ve had that happen many times at Hyde North (although I appreciate its very time consuming).

 

[PupCuff]

Cross Country require a safety crit. staff member in both units.

Close! For Voyager trains, they do require a staff member in each of the units, but they don't have to be Safety Critical. Usually, two Train Managers are rostered, but if one can't be covered/needs to work a train somewhere else/TM 2 goes sick/it's an on the day change to the train plan, often you'll find one set just runs with the catering staff member in it which is permitted. If no suitably trained staff are available then it'd have to be locked out.

 

[Kite159]

Used to happen on the Southminster line where the rear 4 coaches of 12 were locked out / opened up at Wickford on a morning and evening peak train.

Same on the Braintree line I believe.

------
A couple years ago you could had Blackpool South to Colne which were paired up with the rear unit getting locked out of use after Preston.

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Few weeks ago I was on a double Voyager working Crewe - Holyhead where they were going to lock out the rear 3 coaches due to it calling at a station with a short platform [and I assume unlocked after that station call]

 

[Melancholia]

GWR/FGW used to have a 1P03 0550 Oxford to London Paddington, booked a 2 x 3 Turbo. Due to it calling at short platformed Culham & Appleford, rear 3 coaches were always locked out. These were then unlocked on arrival at Didcot Parkway, as the dwell time there is quite generous, due to the 1P02 0557 Oxford to London Paddington HST being booked to overtake the former there.

Slightly off topic, but there was also the opposite situation

1W00 0822 London Paddington to Hereford, where it was booked 2 x 3 Turbo. Ran with all 6 coaches in use, until Oxford, where the rear 3 coaches were locked out. It then continued onto Moreton-in-Marsh, where the rear 3 car was detached and formed a Paddington service, with the front continuing onto Hereford.

 

[peteb]

Chiltern Mainline Silver Trains operate from Kidderminster to Snow Hill with the quiet coach (bizarrely not quiet as it is next to the class 68 shoving) locked out but they don't actually lock the gangway connection, so the coach is usually near-empty to Snow Hill, apart from "those in the know". The doors won't open and to get out at intermediate stops requires you to walk up the train.

 

[Jimini]

Close! For Voyager trains, they do require a staff member in each of the units, but they don't have to be Safety Critical. Usually, two Train Managers are rostered, but if one can't be covered/needs to work a train somewhere else/TM 2 goes sick/it's an on the day change to the train plan, often you'll find one set just runs with the catering staff member in it which is permitted. If no suitably trained staff are available then it'd have to be locked out.

Guessing that’s the case on here at the moment — I’m on the 2104 from Birmingham New Street (originated Man Picc.) to Southampton and we’re all in the front four coaches while the rear five are out of use. Not too busy fortunately.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Heading back from Blackpool North the other day on the 19:01 through to Preston, formed of 6 coaches - 2 x 331s. The rear 331 was locked out of use and everyone was advised to board the front. At Preston, the locked unit was then opened again (and the service continued through to Manchester).

How often does this happen for passenger services? I am aware that when services are dead then it is not uncommon to lock a unit out of use for the entire duration of a journey, but I've not came across a situation where one is locked and then unlocked midservice.

Anyone know why this is, or if this is common?

This happened two weeks ago on the 1628 to Hazel Grove. Rear 331 locked out of use but sure all 6 carriage were available when we got to Manchester.

About 2 years ago, I travelled between Southampton and Reading on a 220+221 formation. The front 220 was locked so everyone travelled in the 221, then at Reading, the 220 was unlocked and all 9 cars were available to passengers. I wondered if it was anything to do with trying to keep a portion clear for higher demand stations and reducing dwell times?

But surely dwell times would increase if passengers were crammed onto one unit?

 

[AverageTD]

This happened two weeks ago on the 1628 to Hazel Grove. Rear 331 locked out of use but sure all 6 carriage were available when we got to Manchester.

But surely dwell times would increase if passengers were crammed onto one unit?

I mean that when the carriage was unlocked at a busier station, eg Reading, then passengers boarding wouldn't have to cope with other passengers getting off the train first.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I mean that when the carriage was unlocked at a busier station, eg Reading, then passengers boarding wouldn't have to cope with other passengers getting off the train first.

Oh I see, yes that is true.

 

[David Dunning]

As a kid I remember what you did when a six carriage (2x3) Southampton to Portsmouth Hampshire DMU didn’t fit on Swanwick station. You jumped out onto the track bed and walked up the ramp I may have gone off topic. I’ll get my coat.

 

[peteb]

Currently on a Fratton to London Victoria service (12 car), and almost opposite to this thread it stops at all manner of station lengths eg 12/8/6 cars capacity. Seems to present no problems either for operator or passengers. Very quiet in the rear carriage as we have not stopped on a platform since Littlehampton. But other operators would throw up their hands in horror and lock units oou if short platforms encountered....why?

 

[IceBlue]

Currently on a Fratton to London Victoria service (12 car), and almost opposite to this thread it stops at all manner of station lengths eg 12/8/6 cars capacity. Seems to present no problems either for operator or passengers. Very quiet in the rear carriage as we have not stopped on a platform since Littlehampton. But other operators would throw up their hands in horror and lock units oou if short platforms encountered....why?

As the trains and stations on this line will be fitted with either SDO (where the driver selects how many carriages' doors will open, allowing all doors on the front X carriages to be opened as per the platform length) or ASDO (where sensors do the same thing automatically and in some cases can even open just a single set of doors in a carriage).

If neither of these are fitted, then the only options not to open all doors on a train are for the guard to open locally just 1/2 doors, which is not ideal at all as it limits the number of doors in use and takes more time, or for carriages/sets to be locked out out of use. The former is used but not massively (particularly on rural stopping services, eg in Wales), with the latter useful when running longer than standard trains where later in the service the platform lengths are all longer and hence the unit can be used.

(A)SDO is by far the best solution (and Northern's new 195s/331s have it fitted) but when using many of their older units, for longer trains to be provided there aren't any other options.

 

[brick60000]

Cross Country require a safety crit. staff member in both units.

Guessing that’s the case on here at the moment — I’m on the 2104 from Birmingham New Street (originated Man Picc.) to Southampton and we’re all in the front four coaches while the rear five are out of use. Not too busy fortunately.

The TM requirement in both sets often leads to the second set being locked out on quieter services (late evening usually).

Another reason is due to insufficient SCU time for a fully open double set at the terminus stations (checking all passengers are off before going to depot). Often, this was the case for services during early COVID where the ECS times were based around single set SCU times.