Coal Supply/Cost Issues

[alexl92]

I understand Australia still mines coal. Is it more expensive from there than it is from Kazakhstan or Columbia?

 

[MarkyT]

I believe the Ffestiniog used oil-firing some years ago and converted to coal when it became more economic to do so. They could presumably revert to oil.

It was a rather dirty fuel I recall. I don't know the complete formulation, how much they filtered or otherwise processed it, but it definitely included used sump oil from motor vehicles, with all its impurities. The railway asked for donations of used oil from visitors and supporters, so I doubt cost was the big issue. In the 1970s we used to stay in a cottage next to the Ffestiniog regularly, and I remember the black acrid smoke emitted clearly. Not continuous admittedly, but especially notable for a short time after the burners were turned on hard. I much prefer the clean light heating oil used by the single manned modern steam rack engines of the Brienz Rothorn line in Switzerland. Very similar to diesel apparently, so an e-fuel substitute should be plausible.

 

[reddragon]

Plenty of bleak, windswept areas in the Welsh Valleys where I'd imagine there would be realtively little objection to seeing their historic lifeblood industry make a small-scale modern comeback.

I very much feel that given the looming economic disaster that sits just over the horizon, we - both as a nation and as a global society - might have to accept that a degree of the green agenda may need take a backseat for a relatively short time, while we realign certain global balances. Crucially, this means using our own sources of fuel; coal, North Sea oil, fracking etc, rather than pretending for political reasons that none of it exists. The timing isn't great, but civilisations need a reliable supply of the basics in order to function.

The green agenda really needs to take the front set for our energy supplies as it is oil & gas prices that are rocketing, not solar & wind! The Government are looking to accelerate off shore wind & tidal turbines to reduce our reliance on imports because they are quick & easy to implement plus are very cheap to operate with supply guarantees of around 2 p per kw for the life of operation.

This must not be confused with coal for heritage lines that has somehow been swept up in the bigger agenda. We should mine local steam grade coal for heritage purposes, but not for anything else!

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Unfortunately nobody will lend money to someone wanting to find oil / gas anymore and even if in a few years time a new site opened that oil / gas is sold on the open market. The UK contribution is so tiny that it would have zero effect of global supply or prices so that idea really is a red herring.

A small scale dedicated coal mine would get around this issue of course.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There are still a good number of waste tips in South Wales to clear , and they have reasonable amounts of coal in them , as up to 1939 miners were only paid for modest sized lump coal , so a fair quantity of less than cobble sized coal went out with the waste.

Previous reclamation schemes sieved and recovered this coal.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It is a waste importing coal, especially in small quantities, when it exists beneath our feet. If a new coal mine was to be opened to serve heritage attractions, could the mine itself become a heritage attraction open to the public whilst actively producing coal. A steam railway could even be built to transport coal away from the mine. I’m sure environmentalists can be reminded how much more efficient this would be than importing it from Kazakhstan!

The National Coal Mining Museum between Huddersfield and Wakefield is officially classed as a working pit, insofar as the inspections and safety regime is concerned. I have no idea how much coal is left in the seams there, but my gut instinct is that combining even small-scale extraction with the museum aspect in the same pit would be a Health & Safety nightmare.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Cannot help thinking the partial answer is encouraging the few extant "private mines" around to meet supply , dependant of course on particular quantity and quality of coal produced. The South West Wales Valleys had / have some still producing anthracite (not ideal for railway locomotive purposes) , there may still be some "steam coal" mines.

The quantity of waste coal in abandoned coal tips could be as much as 30% one gathers , so well worth a look if tip reclamation goes ahead. (which is a bit of a concern at the moment) , some of the Rhondda area tips would contain ideal quality steam coal. (e.g Tylorstown)


Anyway - I have my late father's Deputy Managers Manuals for perusal Their equivalent of a Working Manual. Principles remain the same. He was examined at intervals to retain his competence certificates.

 

[StKeverne1497]

I have split a slate at the National Slate Museum and the other museums sound like they will be worth a visit. Stockpiling coal sounds like a good idea right now, especially from your own mine!

The coal's not from our own mine of course - I was just suggesting that maybe there's an opportunity there. Can't imagine anyone else thinking the same though!
M.

 

[Worf]

Germany are the fourth largest user of coal in the world and have around 130 years of usable strategic reserves, but somehow the "greenies" seem to have left them alone. Our own usable reserves are now negligible as virtually no mines have been adequately mothballed. Reliance on others for our energy needs is a folly, especially when we are sitting on vast amounts of the stuff, and especially at time like this. Technology is available to burn coal "cleanly" (ok, not on a steam loco!). Time for a change of tack.

 

[reddragon]

Germany are the fourth largest user of coal in the world and have around 130 years of usable strategic reserves, but somehow the "greenies" seem to have left them alone. Our own usable reserves are now negligible as virtually no mines have been adequately mothballed. Reliance on others for our energy needs is a folly, especially when we are sitting on vast amounts of the stuff, and especially at time like this. Technology is available to burn coal "cleanly" (ok, not on a steam loco!). Time for a change of tack.

Germany burns Ignite or brown coal, the dirtiest of dirty and has been subjected to huge green campaigns. Now it has come home to bite them hard as so much of their energy comes from Russia.

You think our prices have gone up, but that's nothing compared with coal / gas hungry Germany!

 

[Dai Corner]

Germany burns Ignite or brown coal, the dirtiest of dirty and has been subjected to huge green campaigns. Now it has come home to bite them hard as so much of their energy comes from Russia.

You think our prices have gone up, but that's nothing compared with coal / gas hungry Germany!

Isn't Germany burning that stuff because it shut down nuclear power stations following green campaigns? Perhaps they were a different shade of green?

I agree with others that a heritage coal mine supplying the heritage steam industry would be a great idea.

 

[reddragon]

Isn't Germany burning that stuff because it shut down nuclear power stations following green campaigns? Perhaps they were a different shade of green?

I agree with others that a heritage coal mine supplying the heritage steam industry would be a great idea.

The nuclear industry shutting down has been more about cost & skills than anything else.

Wind / solar wholesale is around 2p/kwh now, whereas coal/gas has gone up from 6.5p to over 20p/kwh wholesale. Nuclear has been over 50p/kwh for years. The latest French & UK nuclear power station projects are over 10 years behind schedule and 3 to 5 times the originally estimated costs. maybe Fusion reactors will replace them?

There's enough tidal power in just the Orkney channel to power the whole of the UK, maybe we should get on with it and stop fussing with heritage coal mines!

A bespoke heritage coal mining industry is a no brainer really! By limiting it's use it takes it out of the wholesale price scheme.

 

[Worf]

Good quality steam coal is apparently obtainable from Venezuela. Don't know about the cost though.

For the UK to aim towards becoming self sufficient for energy is a no brainer. However, it takes long term planning and commitment that is not dependent on the whims of any political party. Not something we are particularly good at.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Isn't Germany burning that stuff because it shut down nuclear power stations following green campaigns? Perhaps they were a different shade of green?

I agree with others that a heritage coal mine supplying the heritage steam industry would be a great idea.

Yes - German brown coal is an environmental disaster , filthy - and much of it comes from the ex DDR area , from intrusive open cost workings.

 

[47827]

Remember having such challenges several years ago when involved in the revival of small passenger carrying steam tug. It was bad enough then but don't envy the heritage sector a few years later. Comrade Drakeford and the champagne guzzling pair of eco fanatics in number 10 may well help strangle the remaining hundreds/thousands of operational coal fired traction pieces out there. My hat off to pretty much anyone who can rise to the challenge and keep the job going this year and beyond (especially with all the obstacles found on the mainline side).

 

[2192]

... We have a working replica of Trevithick's Penydarren engine and have recently stockpiled about four years' worth of coal (it only comes out three or four times a year) rather than just getting enough for the season.

Better put it in a bank vault now you've told everyone.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I agree with others that a heritage coal mine supplying the heritage steam industry would be a great idea.

A bespoke heritage coal mining industry is a no brainer really! By limiting it's use it takes it out of the wholesale price scheme.

Again: how exactly would you extract coal from a mine whilst also running said mine as a working museum, and do so both safely and economically?

 

[reddragon]

Again: how exactly would you extract coal from a mine whilst also running said mine as a working museum, and do so both safely and economically?

Like anything else, you develop a method statement, do the RAMs and operate the business within those parameters.

 

[AidWall]

On the (steam) railway where I volunteer….
It’s clearly a question of both cost and availability.
In the last ‘normal’ year, my recollection is that fuel (ie coal) accounted for about 20% of total costs. The railway made an operating loss which was covered by donations. So with coal prices doubling, the loss is obviously going to be much bigger.
Much debate about sources of coal (and those who understand these things tell me that you have to have the right grade). But the sources do seem few and far between.
I don’t think that conversion to oil firing is practical over any reasonable time scale. And all fuel prices are going up, not just coal. Furthermore, if you do have a working diesel, many potential customers will be put off (so you have a revenue exposure as well).
I’m not sure I know the answer but I have read stories of enginemen in the immediate post-war period who got by with pretty ropey coal and it may well be that is what had to be done in the current situation.
Such an unwelcome blow when there was a lot of optimism around post-covid.

 

[aar0]

Disclosure, I work at one of the museums run by the National Museum Wales. We have a working replica of Trevithick's Penydarren engine and have recently stockpiled about four years' worth of coal (it only comes out three or four times a year) rather than just getting enough for the season.

If this is the museum I think it is (you have to lay the track from the doors of the hall for the engine to wobble outside?) then it might be interesting to get a research student from your local university to investigate alternative fuels… drop me a p.m. if you fancy a chat about that

 

[12C]

Is each railway responsible for sourcing its own coal or is there an importer working on behalf of the whole industry? I was just thinking if not, and suitable coal was found abroad, would it be possible for all heritage operators to form an organisation to purchase and import coal in bulk to reduce costs. Bring it in by the ship load and create effectively a ‘virtual colliery’ in the UK near a port to stockpile and distribute it. As said earlier there must be a fair demand from all the combined heritage railways, main line steam and other heritage attractions.

 

[otaioengineer]

Is each railway responsible for sourcing its own coal or is there an importer working on behalf of the whole industry? I was just thinking if not, and suitable coal was found abroad, would it be possible for all heritage operators to form an organisation to purchase and import coal in bulk to reduce costs. Bring it in by the ship load and create effectively a ‘virtual colliery’ in the UK near a port to stockpile and distribute it. As said earlier there must be a fair demand from all the combined heritage railways, main line steam and other heritage attractions.

The Heritage Railway Association, to which nearly all heritage railways are members, is working very hard to try and source suitable coal to purchase in bulk at an affordable price (that’s the most difficult bit) which would be made available to any railway that wanted to buy some.

 

[Dave S 56F]

Other than Russia been out of the question now of supplying coal to the heritage steam railways, The 3 main countries who we can still buy coal off as imported are Khazakstan Columbia and Poland (I'm not sure if N, America or Australia could be included there also as coal importers for the U.K. heritage lines and 2 remaining steel Mills at scunthorpe and Port Talbot) I do believe reading on national preservation about the Severn valley railway who imported coal off Russia are now having to buy imported coal now off Khazakstan.
Dave S 56F

 

[alexl92]

Is each railway responsible for sourcing its own coal or is there an importer working on behalf of the whole industry? I was just thinking if not, and suitable coal was found abroad, would it be possible for all heritage operators to form an organisation to purchase and import coal in bulk to reduce costs. Bring it in by the ship load and create effectively a ‘virtual colliery’ in the UK near a port to stockpile and distribute it. As said earlier there must be a fair demand from all the combined heritage railways, main line steam and other heritage attractions.

The Heritage Railway Association, to which nearly all heritage railways are members, is working very hard to try and source suitable coal to purchase in bulk at an affordable price (that’s the most difficult bit) which would be made available to any railway that wanted to buy some.

There's also William Smith (Wakefield) Ltd who are owned by West Coast Railways' David Smith, and Hargreaves who I believe supply some of the major HRs.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

There was a story (which I can't now find again!) on Facebook a couple of days ago about a railway having just had a delivery of coal which will keep them going for most of the Summer. It wasn't one of the larger ones, either in gauge or length, but it looks like it does seem that there is coal available somewhere.

 

[paul1609]

There's enough tidal power in just the Orkney channel to power the whole of the UK, maybe we should get on with it and stop fussing with heritage coal mines!

We can't just get on with it because there are significant engineering and environmental challenges to be overcome. I don't know which Orkney Channel you refer to but if its the Pentland Firth ie the channel between Orkney and the mainland Scotland its an extremely hostile environment. One of the test 1.5 MW turbine there only had a service life of 6 months before it was written off. Theres an issue with the effects on marine life, you may recall there was an issue with dolphins etc being led off course and beach because of marine sonars, well the electro-magnetic signature of a large underwater turbine is many times that of sonar as is the acoustic emissions.
Theres no capacity in the grid north of Inverness to accept the power generated so the supply cables would have to go to at least the Moray Forth and that would preclude the proposed interconnector from Shetland.
You'd also need another ac or dc interconnector between Scotland and England the existing connections would be more or less maxxed out by the proposed windfarm developments.
All good interesting stuff that I fully support but with the best will in the world its many years away.

 

[trebor79]

Just speculative thought but I wonder how feasible it would be to reopen a small mine in the UK to supply the heritage sector? There must be a reasonable demand across preserved railways and other heritage attractions.

While under the UK and out to sea there is coal over the last 200 or so years at least most of the easy and much of the not so easy to extract coal has been taken. Without the environmental issues many mines closed because either the coal had been extracted or the cost of opening up new seams could not be justified.


I can not see how a small scale underground mine would be viable. Most viable would be open cast but is there anywhere not in an environmentally sensitive location? The other possibility would be a mine into a hillside. Again is there an unworked viable location ?

There are, or were until very recently, small scale underground mines in the Forest of Dean, Wales and around Alston/Weardale.

 

[alf]

I believe the Swiss modified a shunting steam engine with a pantograph & an electric heater element in the boiler to raise the steam.
It worked but cost far more then a standard diesel 08 type shunter.

If the heritage railway coal supply runs out why not pack the loco bunkers/tenders with second hand lithium iron batteries?

They can be charged at each end using an Adrian Shooter type charging system: lots of steam, no pollution & no more shovelling needed.

 

[Dave S 56F]

I believe the Swiss modified a shunting steam engine with a pantograph & an electric heater element in the boiler to raise the steam.
It worked but cost far more then a standard diesel 08 type shunter.

If the heritage railway coal supply runs out why not pack the loco bunkers/tenders with second hand lithium iron batteries?

They can be charged at each end using an Adrian Shooter type charging system: lots of steam, no pollution & no more shovelling needed.

And that takes the real principle away of how a steam loco or Beam Engine works of how George Stevenson and James Watt built in a true Enthusiasts eye. And why the reason G. Stevenson built locomotion and the Stockton and Darlington to take coal from the colliery to the docks on the east coast in 1825.

 

[Crawley Ben]

There was a story (which I can't now find again!) on Facebook a couple of days ago about a railway having just had a delivery of coal which will keep them going for most of the Summer. It wasn't one of the larger ones, either in gauge or length, but it looks like it does seem that there is coal available somewhere.

You might possibly be thinking of a post made by the Romney Hythe & Dymchurch Railway which has appeared this week?

Cheers

Ben

 

[MattRat]

On the one hand, I understand the move away from coal in Western countries, although it would be nice not to be so two faced and get coal from abroad (in general, not specifically the railways).

On the other hand, Welsh coal is one of the cleanest coals, so if we need to burn coal, it should be that.