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CODE BLACK- "DO NOT TRAVEL" GWR Sunday 18/02/2024

HSTEd

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Ultimately we have a Victorian railway built to Victorian engineering norms.
Those norms are unlikely to be adequate for the challenges of the anthropocene, which is apparently upon us.

If you want to avoid such closures becoming more common a lot of money would have to be spent and a lot of infrastructure replaced.
 
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zwk500

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Out in the rural parts, a common recent problem is tractor mounted flail hedge cutters, they often fling sticks and branches into ditches or onto the road. There is no coordination with road sweeping teams, so get left there. Then when it rains they all wash down and block the drains, and where there are ditches seem to create even better dams than beavers build.

Network Rail built an attenuation reservoir near Chipping Sodbury tunnel, however it was specified wrongly so is often not emptied before next period of rain.
Was it wrongly specified or simply the biggest they could build within the land available? Sometimes you have to accept you won't be able to stop every event.
 

RPI

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Also Exeter Central to St Davids has been closed all morning for engineering works so can't send anything via Honiton
 

Taunton

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Not necessarily cutbacks by Network Rail
In Somerset it could easily be caused by farmers not clearing ditches, and by the Internal Drainage Boards not doing their jobs (again). Somerton to Langport is riddled with field drains and ditches which need regular cleaning to remain effective.
Principal cause of the extensive waterlogging/flooding at Athelney in recent times is responsibility fell to The Environment Agency in London, where a senior officer had a "thing" about the water vole population, and was determined to stop the longstanding dredging operation of the River Parratt and tributaries, on the basis that it might upset them. The dredgers, quite recent ones bought by engineers with relevant local knowledge, were sold off at scrap prices, indeed to The Netherlands (who thought the EA must be mad).
 

Hellzapoppin

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A few years ago I was out on the Somerset levels and had an interesting conversation with an old farmer there. He hated the fact that the flood water was allowed to be run off as fast as possible. He said that the flooding in the winter dropped all the silt on the land which in turn fertilized the ground and so didn't silt up the rivers. Perhaps his local knowledge is worth listening to.
 

Benjwri

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A few years ago I was out on the Somerset levels and had an interesting conversation with an old farmer there. He hated the fact that the flood water was allowed to be run off as fast as possible. He said that the flooding in the winter dropped all the silt on the land which in turn fertilized the ground and so didn't silt up the rivers. Perhaps his local knowledge is worth listening to.
Which, in turn, would mean the railway flooded for far far longer. The amount of silt dropped in riverbeds by flooding isn’t that large, except in the final stages around Bristol, as the river is flowing fast.
 

Grecian 1998

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Having travelled from Bristol to Exeter yesterday around 1400 and back today around the same time, the difference made by the overnight rain was very apparent. I travel regularly between the two and the amount of floodwater on the ground north of Exeter today was quite something - reminded me of the situation 10 years ago. I'm impressed Cowley Bridge didn't flood.

There was some floodwater to the east of Cogload Junction yesterday but significantly more today. It's not unusual though for the area around Athelney to resemble Poole Harbour in winter.

The Levels between Taunton and Bridgwater had almost no floodwater yesterday but some modest amounts today. That bit however isn't as bad as 10 years ago - the line between Taunton and Bridgwater was shut for a month between early Feb 2014 and early March 2014 due to the line being underwater at one point.
 

TUC

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133% over 3 months should be well within contingency planning and will not be the direct.
I agree. 133% sounds the kind of natural variation that would happen once in a while.
 

Deepgreen

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A bit of both probably. The whole SW has had 133% of normal rainfall in the last 3 months, the ground around here is absolutely saturated, so any new rain runs straight off the land. Wetter winters are a prediction of climate change modelling. But we know maintenance has been cut back so could be equally the problem
Actually, a third more rainfall than average is not especially unusual or extreme, and well-maintained infrastructure should be able to deal with it. It's when you get towards double normal rainfall that things might reasonably be expected to fall over significantly.
 

duffield

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Do we know that?




What happens in NW London is quite different to what happens in Wiltshire / Somerset. Or indeed anywhere outside NW London. I’m 9 miles from NW London, and the last 12 months has seen 125% of average rainfall, with that rising to 133% in the last 6.
Yes, the regional picture as been extremely variable. I'm pretty sure BBC East Midlands news reported that the in last six months of 2023 the area had the highest rainfall since records began, by a significant margin.
 

brad465

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There was some floodwater to the east of Cogload Junction yesterday but significantly more today. It's not unusual though for the area around Athelney to resemble Poole Harbour in winter.
There is a flood storage reservoir at this location (Currymoor), which naturally fills up when the River Tone is high enough to spill over. Once that's full, water then spills over at Athelney into the nearby fields, and the A361 has to shut, as happened in the first week of this year. Much of the flooding impacts associated with this are visible from the railway between Athelney and Creech St Michael.
 

Annetts key

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Alderton Tunnel is the shorter one, just east of Chipping Sodbury Tunnel, which has been nothing but trouble due to flooding ever since the day that cheapskate GWR engineer Grierson had it designed and dug around 1900, well after basic railway engineering principles were understood. This is north of the better known Box Tunnel, by Brunel 60 years beforehand, through the same ridge of the Cotswolds - which I don't recall has ever had flooding issues.

We know what the problem at Chipping Sodury Tunnel is. The size of the drain under the tracks through the tunnel is not the problem (which is supplemented by an additional pipe fed by pumps). The problem is that the amount of water allowed by the Enviroment Agency into the stream (that feeds into the nearby River Frome) is limited to prevent flooding of local properties.

The 'duck pond' that Network Rail built was never going to be big enouth to handle the vast amount of water that comes from the tunnel.

It should be noted that even in the middle of summer, there are very wet parts in Chipping Sodbury tunnel. I've walked this tunnel far too many times...

By comparason, Box Tunnel is a dry tunnel. In fact, it's a very dry tunnel. Having walked through it, there are very few wet spots. However, there is a river directly under the railway at one point. You can hear the water!

Do we know that?
I can't speak about the current situation, but the amount of resources was cut in 2010/2011 during the phase 2B/C reorganisation. The relevant engineering department was reduced in size (over the years after this, in some areas, the company did consult in some extra posts). This was on top of the reduced amount of maintance of drainage systems that had taken place since BR was privatised.

I've seen numerous track side drainage channels choked up with weeds, debris, mud, spent ballast etc.

Similarly, I've seen plenty of catch pits (drainage pits) where the covers have been dislogdged and ballast has fallen in partly blocking them, or grating/metal bar type covers have been used, and ballast from ballast trains or ballast regulators has been spread on top of them (not deliberately, but even so, it doesn't help), with large amounts falling through into the pit, again partly blocking them.

The sad fact is, that maintaining the drainage systems is a very low priority. Despite problems being reported, in many cases, nothing gets done for many years until there are repetitive days of train delays.

Ultimately we have a Victorian railway built to Victorian engineering norms.
Those norms are unlikely to be adequate for the challenges of the anthropocene, which is apparently upon us.

If you want to avoid such closures becoming more common a lot of money would have to be spent and a lot of infrastructure replaced.
It would help if the existing drainage systems were properly maintained. Climate change has been known about for over forty years. Okay, so predictions of increased rain fall, or large amounts of rain fall over a short duration are more recent. Regardless, the railway has done very little preparation.

It's not exactly rock science to work out that in order for the drains to cope with a greater amount of water, both the pipes, ditches, channels and the outfalls, streams etc that they flow into have to be increased in their capacity. This is basic engineering.

The real answer is that the powers that be are likely choosing not to spend the money on this.
 

zwk500

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We know what the problem at Chipping Sodury Tunnel is. The size of the drain under the tracks through the tunnel is not the problem (which is supplemented by an additional pipe fed by pumps). The problem is that the amount of water allowed by the Enviroment Agency into the stream (that feeds into the nearby River Frome) is limited to prevent flooding of local properties.
[...]
It's not exactly rock science to work out that in order for the drains to cope with a greater amount of water, both the pipes, ditches, channels and the outfalls, streams etc that they flow into have to be increased in their capacity. This is basic engineering.

The real answer is that the powers that be are likely choosing not to spend the money on this.
How would you increase capacity of the River Frome to alleviate flooding of Chipping Sodbury itself, or where would you install a bypass channel to avoid the issue of flooding residential properties?

Sometimes there's no easy answer without spending disproportionate amounts of money.
 

Bikeman78

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The up Hullavington line was open again by 14:20 with 1L60 the first train to run that way. Down trains continued to divert via Chippenham. Does anyone know why they didn't run reversible over the up Hullavington? The 15:43 stopped additionally at Chippenham, Bath and Bristol Temple Meads. It was 75 late at Bristol Parkway.
 

Benjwri

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The up Hullavington line was open again by 14:20 with 1L60 the first train to run that way. Down trains continued to divert via Chippenham. Does anyone know why they didn't run reversible over the up Hullavington? The 15:43 stopped additionally at Chippenham, Bath and Bristol Temple Meads. It was 75 late at Bristol Parkway.
There isn’t much point. On a Sunday the Bristols and Swanseas combine to only make the same service the line via Chippenham deals with on a weekday.

Running bidi with larger blocks and slower line speeds only means largest delays in both directions
 

800301

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The up Hullavington line was open again by 14:20 with 1L60 the first train to run that way. Down trains continued to divert via Chippenham. Does anyone know why they didn't run reversible over the up Hullavington? The 15:43 stopped additionally at Chippenham, Bath and Bristol Temple Meads. It was 75 late at Bristol Parkway.

Believe there was an issue with points which meant it couldn’t happen
 

Annetts key

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How would you increase capacity of the River Frome to alleviate flooding of Chipping Sodbury itself, or where would you install a bypass channel to avoid the issue of flooding residential properties?

Sometimes there's no easy answer without spending disproportionate amounts of money.
In the case of Chipping Sodbury Tunnel, yes, it's not easy. Note that the water from the tunnel goes into a stream first, that stream then goes to the River Frome.

I wrote about it before (see this post).

The bigger problem here being can the River Frome in this area cope with more water from the railway? The distance from the railway to the River Frome is not that great.
 
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Bikeman78

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There isn’t much point. On a Sunday the Bristols and Swanseas combine to only make the same service the line via Chippenham deals with on a weekday.

Running bidi with larger blocks and slower line speeds only means largest delays in both directions
Fair enough. Although there seemed to be bidi running through Bath. Possibly a failure in the up platform. I was surprised about the extra stops and diversion into Temple Meads. Perhaps the 16:00 Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads wasn't expected to run but in the event it was right behind the 15:43 at Bath.
 

Annetts key

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The up Hullavington line was open again by 14:20 with 1L60 the first train to run that way. Down trains continued to divert via Chippenham. Does anyone know why they didn't run reversible over the up Hullavington? The 15:43 stopped additionally at Chippenham, Bath and Bristol Temple Meads. It was 75 late at Bristol Parkway.
At Chipping Sodbury, the crossover to take trains running in the down direction on the up line, back to the down line failed to gain reverse. These points are one of the sets that does mot enjoy being washed by the flood water...

As there is no reversible signalling between Westerleigh Junction and Chipping Sodbury, not having the crossover working rather messes up any plans to run down direction trains on the up line here.

Many, many years ago, as I understand it, there apparently was some reversible signalling between Westerleigh Junction and Chipping Sodbury. The story is that it was removed to save money. I don't know if that is true. What is true is that BR had plans to fit reversible signalling between Westerleigh Junction and Chipping Sodbury, There were signal structures ready. These were all taken down before the OHL could be installed.
 
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Dai Corner

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It's worth remembering that Chipping Sodbury tunnel wasn't necessary in railway engineering terms. It was only built to hide the line from the Duke of Beaufort's Badminton House. Wealthy and influential NIMBYs got their way in those days.

Straying into speculative territory here, but the proper solution would be to raise the line sufficiently to avoid flooding. Slightly less unlikely, how about a very long pipe so the excess water could be discharged into the Severn?
 

Benjwri

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Slightly less unlikely, how about a very long pipe so the excess water could be discharged into the Severn?
That’s a 13 mile long pipe which would have to be quite large, plus numerous pumping stations.
 

The exile

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That’s a 13 mile long pipe which would have to be quite large, plus numerous pumping stations.
Not entirely sure why pumping stations would be needed as Chippibg Sodbury is not below sea-level. The romans managed the necessary engineering. Still doubt its practicable though.
 

Sly Old Fox

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A lot of the crossovers have had bits cut out and plain lined over the last year or so. Wootton Bassett, Bourton and Uffington are all in that state in at least one direction.
 

Benjwri

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Not entirely sure why pumping stations would be needed as Chippibg Sodbury is not below sea-level. The romans managed the necessary engineering. Still doubt its practicable though.
The drainage impact of a 13 mile pipe that was solely gravity fed would be negligible, it might not even move any water because of friction. You need pumps to move any meaningful amount of water
 

Bletchleyite

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The drainage impact of a 13 mile pipe that was solely gravity fed would be negligible, it might not even move any water because of friction. You need pumps to move any meaningful amount of water

Depends on the angle it's at, surprisingly much of the country's water supply is gravity fed until it reaches water towers where it has to be pumped up.
 

Benjwri

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Depends on the angle it's at, surprisingly much of the country's water supply is gravity fed until it reaches water towers where it has to be pumped up.
I’m not aware of any system run solely of gravity pressure, except for distribution from tanks to houses in some cases. Most reservoirs will have a pump to increase water pressure on exit, then further booster pumps to counter friction loses.

Doing a basic head loss calculation, for a roughly best case scenario with the lowest friction pipes, you won’t even get a flow until your pipe is 0.5m in diameter. It's very unlikely you could get it to work without booster pumps.
 

DelW

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I’m not aware of any system run solely of gravity pressure, except for distribution from tanks to houses in some cases. Most reservoirs will have a pump to increase water pressure on exit, then further booster pumps to counter friction loses.

Doing a basic head loss calculation, for a roughly best case scenario with the lowest friction pipes, you won’t even get a flow until your pipe is 0.5m in diameter. It's very unlikely you could get it to work without booster pumps.
Glasgow's drinking water is gravity fed from Loch Katrine to the reservoirs just north of Milngavie, in two aqueducts dating the the mid and late 19th century respectively. That's over 20 miles as the crow flies. There are several inverted siphons (dips into valleys and back up again). IIRC the system can transfer up to 200 megalitres per day.
 

stuu

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It's worth remembering that Chipping Sodbury tunnel wasn't necessary in railway engineering terms. It was only built to hide the line from the Duke of Beaufort's Badminton House. Wealthy and influential NIMBYs got their way in those days.
There is a 90m difference in height between the railway and the top of the hill it goes under. That would have been quite the cutting
 

Benjwri

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Glasgow's drinking water is gravity fed from Loch Katrine to the reservoirs just north of Milngavie, in two aqueducts dating the the mid and late 19th century respectively. That's over 20 miles as the crow flies. There are several inverted siphons (dips into valleys and back up again). IIRC the system can transfer up to 200 megalitres per day.
Although obviously far greater volumes of water in the reservoir, with a far greater elevation difference which is the key factor. Open channel flow is a bit of a different matter compared to the proposed pipe flow.
 

Dai Corner

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There is a 90m difference in height between the railway and the top of the hill it goes under. That would have been quite the cutting
Or some long gradients to get over the top, or at least high enough, which could be shorter these days with electric traction rather than steam

Or a different route to avoid the hill? I'm not that familiar with the south Gloucestershire topography.
 

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