Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[GC class B1]

They come apart surprisingly easily when twisted beyond a certain amount of degrees.

The class 159 impact with the second set and the effect of contact with the class 159 and the derailment would have resulted in a significant shock loading on the couplers.

 

[JN114]

I wouldn't mind a little more evidence that 158762 is actually there beyond "take my word for it".

I must confess to be at a bit of a loss as to why:

a) you need further evidence
b) any of the half-dozen or so different posters who've quoted those same unit numbers, or that it was a 4 car, etc, would have in coordination misled you (and others) as to 158762s involvement

Take the word of the people who've kindly told you, or stay in the dark.

Very much regretting ever getting involved in the unit numbers discussion now...

 

[Llanigraham]

If you search the BBC reports from last night there is one showing it sticking out the other end of the tunnel with its hazard lights on.

I think you will find that the video was taken INSIDE to tunnel. You can see the tunnel walls behind it.

 

[Llanigraham]

I often wonder what would happen to me, or other wheelchair users, in such circumstances. Particularly where (as in this case) there's no chance of parallel transfer into another train.

The Emergency workers will come in and remove you in any way they see fit.

 

[CHAPS2034]

The GSMR 'cell' which encompasses about 5km IIRC, and any adjoining GSMR cell.

From my GSMR training which was with an ex-VWC area manager, one of the places with pretty much the best value for a Railway Emergency Call (REC) would be Crewe station as it would then affect six adjoining GSMR cells (the lines to Chester, WCML North, Manchester, the Potteries, WCML south and the Marches).

On receipt of a GSMR REC a driver must stop their train immediately whilst listening to the call, press the 'ST' acknowledgement button on the GSMR when stopped and then when the REC is terminated any drivers who know they are definitely not affected by the incident may proceed. They are supposed to proceed at caution and expect the next signal to be at its most restrictive in case the controlling signaller has had to use an 'all signals to danger' device - the signaller will have enough on his plate without half a dozen drivers then ringing in to say that they have had an irregular aspect sequence. Equally, the signaller would also be overloaded if every single train in the area had to contact the signaller for permission to proceed, even the ones clearly not affected.

Drivers of any trains who are or may possibly be affected by the incident must not move until the controlling signaller has given them each specific permission to proceed along with any necessary instructions.

Thanks for the explanation

As it took 2 hours to get 1F27 moving again, the signaller will no doubt have had lots of higher priorities to sort first, bearing in mind this was an accident.

 

[ScotRail158725]

How do you know this? Have you seen it?

I don't believe for a moment that couplings are so weak that the drag of a derailed car would open it up when the units are travelling at no more than 20 mph.

Equally, I'm surprised the lead unit was deliberately moved after the accident, though that seems the more likely explanation.

I wouldn't mind a little more evidence that 158762 is actually there beyond "take my word for it".

Passenger evacuated from Salisbury crash says it was a 'miracle' no one died

Abigail Taylor was among those evacuated after the crash between two trains in Wiltshire last night.

www.google.co.uk

In the photo on the left you can clearly see 158 to the right and down the tunnel the wreckage of the other 2

A quick google search would’ve found you that instead of feeling the need to pipe up

 

[AlterEgo]

I must admit I'm very surprised at how little factual information appears to be in the public domain. Not much appears to be clear 23 pages in here.

 

[molecrochip]

Thanks for the explanation

As it took 2 hours to get 1F27 moving again, the signaller will no doubt have had lots of higher priorities to sort first, bearing in mind this was an accident.

Would the signaler get relieved in case they were in anyway at fault? (not saying they were).

 

[DanNCL]

Would the signaler get relieved in case they were in anyway at fault? (not saying they were).

Yes they would.

 

[molecrochip]

Yes they would.

So not unreasonable for 1F27 to be stood still for a good while awaiting someone to take over that role.

 

[bramling]

I must admit I'm very surprised at how little factual information appears to be in the public domain. Not much appears to be clear 23 pages in here.

Yes we are at the stage where something official should be being put out, especially with some dubious stuff going out on the news media.

Rail users deserve reassurances.

 

[norbitonflyer]

On the BBC One BBC News at One, BBC Points West Lunchtime News, BBC One BBC News at Six and BBC Points West Evening News. The first two should now be available on BBC iPlayer.

Thanks. Seen it now. The Telegraph clip on post 96 shows flashing reflected on the cutting side from a source concealed behind the SWR unit, but is presumably the GWR unit.

 

[bnm]

Yes we are at the stage where something official should be being put out, especially with some dubious stuff going out on the news media.

Rail users deserve reassurances.

RAIB and BTP deserve not to be rushed.

 

[shakey1961]

Sorry if this has been posted earlier, but this from the Daily Telegraph...

Network Rail initially suggested the first train had hit an object, causing it to derail and knocking out signalling in the area, before the second train ploughed into the stranded service.

But British Transport Police later said "at this early stage, there was nothing to suggest" the train had struck an object before derailing.

A source at Network Rail said the working assumption was a “multiple” failure in signalling allowing both trains into the tunnel at the same time.

The source said the trains should have been kept apart by a signalling block system with the second driver held back by a warning signal.

But even if the driver had missed the signal, the trains are fitted with an automatic Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) that should have put the brakes on within seconds.

“It looks like something technical has gone wrong here,” the source said.

Salisbury train crash may have been caused by signalling problem

Police refused to rule out criminal charges as sources suggested the crash had likely been caused by a signalling problem

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[30907]

Yes we are at the stage where something official should be being put out, especially with some dubious stuff going out on the news media.

Rail users deserve reassurances.

How would you phrase that statement, based on what is known as of now?

 

[irish_rail]

Extremely concerning (and surprising) if true

How would you phrase that statement, based on what is known as of now?

Bramling is right. RAIB will have a very very good idea by now what has happened, and there is no reason to keep it from the public and more importantly industry. Obviously no one is expecting the exact final report yet, but having looked at the OTMR and spoken with both drivers the investigators should have a damn good idea what has gone on now.

 

[30907]

Sorry if this has been posted earlier, but this from the Daily Telegraph... "A source at Network Rail said the working assumption was a “multiple” failure in signalling allowing both trains into the tunnel at the same time." and "It looks like something technical has gone wrong here," the source said. "Network Rail announced in May that workers had refurbished a set of switches and crossings at Salisbury station while “strengthening and painting” Fisherton Tunnel."

The same workers? More seriously, is there a plausible connection with the accident - and is anyone willing to post some of the Telegraph text?

 

[Annetts key]

Sorry if this has been posted earlier, but this from the Daily Telegraph... "A source at Network Rail said the working assumption was a “multiple” failure in signalling allowing both trains into the tunnel at the same time." and "It looks like something technical has gone wrong here," the source said. "Network Rail announced in May that workers had refurbished a set of switches and crossings at Salisbury station while “strengthening and painting” Fisherton Tunnel."

Salisbury train crash may have been caused by signalling problem

Police refused to rule out criminal charges as sources suggested the crash had likely been caused by a signalling problem

www.telegraph.co.uk

That does not really mean very much, as it’s standard procedure to suspect the signalling system, and hence carry out a full and detailed capture of the system state including from any monitoring or data logging systems. Then carry out very detailed testing to find out if any part of the system could have resulted in it failing in an unsafe way.

 

[Scotrail84]

No it's not.

A train stopped out of course is not drummed into anyone to immediately place protection.

If you think you are foul, or have derailed then yes, if the signaller cannot protect you. (TBW/ESW excluded) But for stopping out of course? No.

A train coming off the road is not stopped out of course, its an emergency. I never said anything about being stopped out of course.

 

[Moonshot]

That does not really mean very much, as it’s standard procedure to suspect the signalling system, and hence carry out a full and detailed capture of the system state including from any monitoring or data logging systems. Then carry out very detailed testing to find out if any part of the system could have resulted in it failing in an unsafe way.

This is spot on....and this incident reminds me of a near miss which occured when a signaller allowed 2 trains to pass signals at danger with authority, which promptly set them on a collision course. Luckliy one of the drivers realised the error and brought train to a stand.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

What possible link is there between replacing S&C in Salisbury station / ‘painting’ Fisherton tunnel (whatever that means) back in May, and an alleged signalling problem in November?

 

[_toommm_]

Trains are planned to stay on site until 08/11/21.

 

[hwl]

one of the places with pretty much the best value for a Railway Emergency Call (REC) would be Crewe station as it would then affect six adjoining GSMR cells (the lines to Chester, WCML North, Manchester, the Potteries, WCML south and the Marches).

The "best value" from a real world one so far was around the Queenstown Road / Battersea Park area in rush hour as it ended up taking out Victoria SE side, Victoria Southern side, Waterloo (everything), Overground SLL, WLL so around 110tph per direction in total.

 

[neonison]

Sorry if this has been posted earlier, but this from the Daily Telegraph...

Salisbury train crash may have been caused by signalling problem

Police refused to rule out criminal charges as sources suggested the crash had likely been caused by a signalling problem

www.telegraph.co.uk

Behind a paywall.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think it is safe to say that investigators will know by now what has happened.

It’s the how and why that will take the time.

Based on no more than reading this thread (and sources linked from it), I’m 99% sure what has happened, but I will refrain from speculating how or why.

The "best value" from a real world one so far was around the Queenstown Road / Battersea Park area in rush hour as it ended up taking out Victoria SE side, Victoria Southern side, Waterloo (everything), Overground SLL, WLL so around 110tph per direction.

SNCF had one just outside Gare du Nord which did a similar job with the lines from Est.

 

[Roger B]

This is what Salisbury signalling panel looked like 30 years ago, for anyone interested.

Thanks. Gotta love a Scorpions T Shirt! Seem 'em live a fair few times - great gigs every one.

 

[AlterEgo]

Extremely concerning (and surprising) if true


Bramling is right. RAIB will have a very very good idea by now what has happened, and there is no reason to keep it from the public and more importantly industry. Obviously no one is expecting the exact final report yet, but having looked at the OTMR and spoken with both drivers the investigators should have a damn good idea what has gone on now.

At least, a series of events should have become clear relatively soon after the incident, even if the exact cause is still very much under investigation.

The misinformation about the first train "hitting an object" hasn't helped.

 

[norbitonflyer]

A train coming off the road is not stopped out of course, its an emergency. I never said anything about being stopped out of course.

Latest reports suggest neither train stopped, let alone derailed, until they ran into each other.

 

[Jimini]

Behind a paywall.

Here you go:

Salisbury train crash may have been caused by signalling problem

Police refused to rule out criminal charges as sources suggested the crash had likely been caused by a signalling problem

www.telegraph.co.uk

Salisbury train crash may have been caused by signalling problem​

Police on Monday night refused to rule out criminal charges as sources suggested the crash had likely been caused by a signalling problem.

...Network Rail initially suggested the first train had hit an object, causing it to derail and knocking out signalling in the area, before the second train ploughed into the stranded service.
But British Transport Police later said "at this early stage, there was nothing to suggest" the train had struck an object before derailing.
A source at Network Rail said the working assumption was a “multiple” failure in signalling allowing both trains into the tunnel at the same time.
The source said the trains should have been kept apart by a signalling block system with the second driver held back by a warning signal.
But even if the driver had missed the signal, the trains are fitted with an automatic Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) that should have put the brakes on within seconds.
“It looks like something technical has gone wrong here,” the source said.......

 

[Horizon22]

I've heard that the RAIB are looking to give up the site by the end of service tomorrow. Obviously that still would lead to extra time for recovery of the trains / repairs to the infrastructure.