Commute - how much is too much?

[VauxhallandI]

Each year we hear sound bites of season tickets hitting x value from y place.

Now I am no lover of the year on year inflation busting fares to what feels like a standing still service - without going into the whys and wherefore to the reasons for this.

£5k for Swindon and £8.5k for Gloucester etc (I reserve the right to have got these numbers wrong)

I also read big numbers on twitter from fellow GA travellers talking of large numbers from places such as Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich.

I do have to say I think some of these people are expecting too much, in order to work in London I had to move to London.

I don't think it is reasonable to be on £20/30k a year and expect to be able to live in Ipswich etc.

You cannot have your cake and eat it re: house/rent prices.

 

[jopsuk]

you have a point, but the simple fact is that (somewhat independent of the distance) the cost of commuting by rail (and by coach, as it happens) has been, for well over a decade, increasing much faster than the total cost of doing similar journies by car (taking into account maintenance, VED, insurance, purchase/depreciation).

I doubt many Ipswich-London commuters are on less than £40k.

 

[47802]

No distance is too far in my book I know of people who commute from such as Doncaster and Sheffield, and there are probably a number of reasons for that, but the primary being its too expensive to live in London or near London, maybe some prefer to commute.

Such is the London centric economy of this country these days that many people have little or no alternative. If house prices and rents were not so stupidly expensive around London then clearly less people would commute, but obviously its a supply and demand situation with regard to housing.

 

[VauxhallandI]

No distance is too far in my book I know of people who commute from such as Doncaster and Sheffield, and there are probably a number of reasons for that, one being its too expensive to live in London or near London I suspect is the primary reason, other perhaps because they prefer it that way.

Such is the London centric economy of this country these days that many people have little or no alternative. If house prices and rents were not so stupidly expensive around London then clearly less people would commute, but obviously its a supply and demand situation with regard to housing.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, by all means fill yer boots.

However traveling all year from Sheffield should cost a significant figure, it is a long way. However if it is a recurrent fee of £10k etc then how many years before the cheap housing argument is actually lost.

 

[Moonshot]

Each year we hear sound bites of season tickets hitting x value from y place.

Now I am no lover of the year on year inflation busting fares to what feels like a standing still service - without going into the whys and wherefore to the reasons for this.

£5k for Swindon and £8.5k for Gloucester etc (I reserve the right to have got these numbers wrong)

I also read big numbers on twitter from fellow GA travellers talking of large numbers from places such as Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich.

I do have to say I think some of these people are expecting too much, in order to work in London I had to move to London.

I don't think it is reasonable to be on £20/30k a year and expect to be able to live in Ipswich etc.

You cannot have your cake and eat it re: house/rent prices.

The other thing to bear in mind is that long term government policy is for passengers to be increasingly bearing the cost of rail rather than the taxpayer.

If season tickets were not regulated and left at the mercy of pure market forces, I suspect that some long distance commuters would be incentivised to look for employment closer to home. Which may encourage investment in the regions at the expense of London....

 

[47802]

So 200K will buy you a decent 3 or 4 bed house in the north possibly less depending on location how much will that be near London half a million, three quarters of a million, a million?

 

[VauxhallandI]

So 200K will buy you a decent 3 or 4 bed house in the north possibly less depending on location how much will that be near London half a million, three quarters of a million, a million?

Well you can buy mine for £210k and be in the City in 45mins

 

[yorksrob]

Personally, I think about half an hour is an ideal commute. Anything more tends to be a bit tiresome for me.

Of course, with our basket case economy and housing market, particularly in the South East, where house prices are beyond the reach of many ordinary residents and rents aren't much cheaper than paying a mortgage, it's inevitable that people on lower incomes are going to have to commute further. Sheffield is obviously pushing it in these cases, but I can forsee larger numbers of people commuting from places such as Ashford and the Kent Coast towns.

That MP was wrong recently to talk about the South East subsidising rail transport elsewhere. However, perhaps there is a point that since commuting in these circumstances is less of a lifestyle choice and more of a necessity, it might be worthwhile reconsidering the ever diminishing tax payer subsidy for rail in the South East.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Personally, I think about half an hour is an ideal commute. Anything more tends to be a bit tiresome for me.

Of course, with our basket case economy and housing market, particularly in the South East, where house prices are beyond the reach of many ordinary residents and rents aren't much cheaper than paying a mortgage, it's inevitable that people on lower incomes are going to have to commute further. Sheffield is obviously pushing it in these cases, but I can forsee larger numbers of people commuting from places such as Ashford and the Kent Coast towns.

That MP was wrong recently to talk about the South East subsidising rail transport elsewhere. However, perhaps there is a point that since commuting in these circumstances is less of a lifestyle choice and more of a necessity, it might be worthwhile reconsidering the ever diminishing tax payer subsidy for rail in the South East.

30 mins is ideal.

I was doing door to door.

The time on the train for me can be as little as 21 mins up to 43 mins for the crawler (guaranteed seat though)

 

[Andrewlong]

Johngill100. - you are understating prices. Season ticket from Swindon to Paddington is £8k per year and for Gloucester it's about £10k

Some people travel long distances so they can have the best of both worlds - a well paid job in the city plus a nice home in the countryside. Plus on the GWML into Paddington! it's not that long a journey from Swindon assuming you can get a seat.

Sitting in comfort for an hour will always beat standing on a packed train into Waterloo at rush hour!

 

[Moonshot]

If train speed was a lot faster then commute time would be less of an issue. HS2 effectively means Birmingham would be in Zone6 of London today.......

 

[VauxhallandI]

Johngill100. - you are understating prices. Season ticket from Swindon to Paddington is £8k per year and for Gloucester it's about £10k

Some people travel long distances so they can have the best of both worlds - a well paid job in the city plus a nice home in the countryside. Plus on the GWML into Paddington! it's not that long a journey from Swindon assuming you can get a seat.

Sitting in comfort for an hour will always beat standing on a packed train into Waterloo at rush hour!

Yes I am always amazed when going to wales how quick Swindon comes around, 50 mins or so.

However you must factor the journey and cost to Swindon station and the misery of the tube journey at the Paddington end.

Its not that I think one shouldn't do it, it's just the annual moaning and vox pops.

 

[CNash]

Of course, with our basket case economy and housing market, particularly in the South East, where house prices are beyond the reach of many ordinary residents and rents aren't much cheaper than paying a mortgage, it's inevitable that people on lower incomes are going to have to commute further. Sheffield is obviously pushing it in these cases, but I can forsee larger numbers of people commuting from places such as Ashford and the Kent Coast towns.

In many cases, mortgage rates and the price of London (and suburbs) properties means that it can be much cheaper to pay a mortgage than it is to rent. The only hurdle is getting a mortgage in the first place; if you're on a low income, banks won't offer anywhere near what you need without a hefty deposit. Then there are contract or part-time workers like myself, whom the banks won't lend to at all.

 

[Class83]

Well you can buy mine for £210k and be in the City in 45mins

Rightmove suggests that an average 3 bed semi within 5 miles of Cheshunt Station would be about £3-400k repeat the search for Chesterfield and it's more like £150k. Assuming every £100k of mortgage costs about £500/month then that's £12k worth of season ticket. Obviously it's not that simple as people are balancing size of house, garden, proximity to countryside, schools, travel time.

 

[Helvellyn]

There was piece on Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 show this week where someone was complaining that Southampton is now in the £5k club for commuting into London on an Annual Season ticket. A spokesman for the Rail Delivery Group pointed out that this was £20 per day for an 80 mile each way journey into Central London. Would driving really be cheaper taking into account fuel costs, car tax, car insurance, congestion charge, etc?

 

[fowler9]

There was piece on Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 show this week where someone was complaining that Southampton is now in the £5k club for commuting into London on an Annual Season ticket. A spokesman for the Rail Delivery Group pointed out that this was £20 per day for an 80 mile each way journey into Central London. Would driving really be cheaper taking into account fuel costs, car tax, car insurance, congestion charge, etc?

Absolutely, there is no way you can buy and run a car like that for a year for £5000. Whilst I would be tempted to put the prices up further on season tickets to reflect the true cost better and to encourage people to work closer to home (ie. not in London) I fear that the jobs just aren't there closer to home. Ah well, we've made the country this way and we can unmake it. It is my argument against HS2, I'm not sure that what this country needs is for it to be any easier to get to London.

 

[snail]

One point often missed in the 'move closer to work' argument is the impact on the commuter's family. Should children be unsettled by having to move schools? What if the partner has a job locally that can't be replicated nearer to the commuter's place of work?

 

[Beveridges]

So 200K will buy you a decent 3 or 4 bed house in the north possibly less depending on location how much will that be near London half a million, three quarters of a million, a million?

In some areas in the North you can buy a decent 3 or 4 bedroom detached house for a lot less than £200K. There is one not far from me that's currently £115k!

 

[amcluesent]

I did PBO-KGX for 5 years, door to office was about 1hr 50mins. Needed a car to get to station, then pay parking, then EC 1st season plus Zone 1 - the cost plus time was sheer madness. Now i can walk to office in 10 mins.

 

[DarloRich]

There was piece on Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 show this week where someone was complaining that Southampton is now in the £5k club for commuting into London on an Annual Season ticket. A spokesman for the Rail Delivery Group pointed out that this was £20 per day for an 80 mile each way journey into Central London. Would driving really be cheaper taking into account fuel costs, car tax, car insurance, congestion charge, etc?

The problem RDG/ATOC/Whoever never want to look it is that whilst a season ticket might be cheap when compared to a daily ticket (and no doubt it is) you can not spread the cost of a season ticket out. Therefore all of your 5k is due on day one of your season. A car allows you to budget and spread the cost across the year, perhaps hiding he true cost.

That needs to be looked at but wont be. I know of people who pay for their season ticket by credit card and then spread the cost over 12 months. That doesn't seem sensible but is often the only way.

Also more large employers need to offer their employees a season ticket loan through their pay roll. I know of several who do and it works well for their staff, especially the lower grade staff members.

As for the distance of commute i think there are 3 main reasons:

1) Where you can obtain a mortgage/affordable accommodation
2) Those who make the choice to try to live in a better area whilst working in London.
3) No choice - either do that commute or sign on.

 

[47802]

Unless we can change the structure of the economy from London and South East centric then many people will have to commute long distance for the foreseeable future.

In terms of commuting distance isn't really relevant its time and cost.

For 11 years I commuted 30 miles by car between South Bradford and Sheffield, yes in this case I could have easily moved closer, but I was happy where I live, which is near the Motorway and my place of work near the Motorway, so the journey was relatively straight forward most of the time and tuck around 45 mins, getting into the centre of Leeds or Bradford at peak time will take as long and be much more stressful. Of course this journey was only practical by Car, by Bus/Train/Tram/Walk it would have taken about 2.5 hour

 

[Gathursty]

I'll go off my yardstick of £5000, as that is how much (a little less probably) of getting around all the UK network.

I reckon for £5000, you ought to be able to receive a yearly season ticket equivalent to cover the same distance as London to the farthest reaches of the Network South East region anywhere in the country.

 

[tbtc]

If we take Ipswich as an example mentioned early on in the thread (somewhere that large scale everyday commuting to London occurs, rather than the more limited numbers going all the way from Swansea/ Chesterfield every single day) then most people doing that journey are either:

• People from the London area who have moved to Ipswich because they can't afford to live in the capital any more (so have factored in the cost of travel when going for a cheaper house in Suffolk)
  
• People from the Ipswich area who have got a job in LOndon to take advantage of the higher wages (who have factored in the cost of travel when going for a better paid job in London).

The season tickets have gone up broadly in line with inflation in recent years. Whilst most people have seen real terms wage cuts in the past five years, the difference between "London" and "non London" house prices has generally become wider and wider over the last decade.

Personally, I've got the option to work in Leeds for maybe £5k more salary. But to pay for £2,300 season ticket out of my net salary I'd need over £3k (gross). So, I've worked out that the time cost (at least ten hours a week) doesn't justify the commute. I used to do it - when you are younger and have fewer commitments it makes more sense.

 

[andy19_64]

A 12 month season ticket from the Worthing area to London Victoria is around £4400. when you say it quick it is a lot of money but when you break it down it is about £84 per week and £17ish per day. And if you really want to you can use it at the weekend which then makes it even cheaper per week/day.

How many of us could take a car from the Sussex coast to London for the day for £17. and park in the congestion zone

It is a shame the TOCS could not help customers by say doing a direct debit scheme maybe over 6 months. I would imagine most people would not mind paying a little bit extra to cover the admin charges for this, i wouldn't

 

[VauxhallandI]

Rightmove suggests that an average 3 bed semi within 5 miles of Cheshunt Station would be about £3-400k repeat the search for Chesterfield and it's more like £150k. Assuming every £100k of mortgage costs about £500/month then that's £12k worth of season ticket. Obviously it's not that simple as people are balancing size of house, garden, proximity to countryside, schools, travel time.

Well I will accept your kind offer as Rightmove must be right!

Cash or cheque are acceptable.

I have to say the old argument about it being cheaper than driving a car is irrelevant as the majority of people have the car anyway so the savings are not there.

Who can live by train alone, outside of London and maybe Glasgow I doubt many.

The Southampton example is great value.

 

[yorksrob]

Who can live by train alone, outside of London and maybe Glasgow I doubt many.

I have to. I can't afford to run a house and a car, even up here.

 

[306024]

If we take Ipswich as an example mentioned early on in the thread.......

The quality of life in East Anglia makes the commuting worthwhile for many. So many nice places to live, a peaceful retreat from London, but just over an hour from Ipswich on the faster trains when the GEML is behaving itself. Commuting from Stowmarket, Ipswich and Manningtree has increased greatly, just compare a timetable from the 1970's to today's frequency.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I guess as having lived a life as a financial migrant I can't see the problem with following the money.

I can't understand how families all live in each other's pockets and don't stray out of their home towns.

Everyone has different drivers and reasons it was the moaning about the cost of your own decision that bemuses me.

 

[PHILIPE]

Each year we hear sound bites of season tickets hitting x value from y place.

Now I am no lover of the year on year inflation busting fares to what feels like a standing still service - without going into the whys and wherefore to the reasons for this.

£5k for Swindon and £8.5k for Gloucester etc (I reserve the right to have got these numbers wrong)

I also read big numbers on twitter from fellow GA travellers talking of large numbers from places such as Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich.

I do have to say I think some of these people are expecting too much, in order to work in London I had to move to London.

I don't think it is reasonable to be on £20/30k a year and expect to be able to live in Ipswich etc.

You cannot have your cake and eat it re: house/rent prices.

See thread:- www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94407
(recently created post already exists)

 

[AntoniC]

As a civil servant on £19974 pa, this year it has cost me £1192 or 5.9 % of my income , to renew my annual all zones Merseyrail Trio Pass.

This is for my daily commute of Southport to Liverpool Moorfields and back to Southport, it also allows me unlimited travel on buses/trains/ferries in the Merseytravel area.

I think this is great value for me !.

My journey is 5 minutes walking to Southport station, 43 minutes on the train them a 10 minute walk to my office.