Comparing new trains - 195 vs 755

[SteveM70]

I’ve used Northern’s 195s a lot over the last couple of years, but this week is the first time I’ve been on any of GA’s 755s. So I thought I’d compare them from a passenger’s point of view. My original plan had been to score them in various categories, but I soon gave up on that when it became abundantly clear that the 755 is miles better than the 195.

They’re quieter (thanks to the curious arrangement of what I’m reliably informed is a “thrash pod” in enthusiast parlance, which obviously negates the underfloor noise on the 195s)

There’s none of the infernal underfloor rattling that you get with the 195s, and that’s an unfair comparison in itself because the 755 was largely on jointed track whereas the 195 has CWR

The PIS seems more intuitive, and there are less announcements (and those that there are, are at a sensible volume)

The signage of the correct doors for wheelchair users and cyclists is fantastic on the 755 (massive pictures on the windows), whereas on a 195 it’s hard to spot

Even the little stuff is better - like the bins being easy to spot and a lot bigger

Braking seems a lot smoother too.

Shame I live in Northernland, really

 

[ComUtoR]

Lights are to bright
Seats are to thin
Window misalignment

 

[JonathanH]

How close can we get to a comparison of the cost of a 195 vs a 755?

The Anglia fleet of 378 Stadler vehicles is described as being £600m
https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/media/article/stadler-signs-largest-uk-order-abellio-east-anglia/39/

Stadler has received its largest order in the United Kingdom worth over £600 million to supply altogether 378 carriages including 20 electric and 38 bi-mode FLIRT multiple units to Abellio East Anglia Ltd. The project is being funded by Rock Rail and the financing agreement for the deal was finalised yesterday. The award is an important milestone in the history of the group, as it is the first contract for mainline rolling stock Stadler has received in the UK market.

The Northern fleet of 290 CAF vehicles is described as being £500m
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/northern-plans-more-new-trains-after-caf-milestone

A £500 million deal for 98 trains, later increased to 101, was placed with the Spanish train builder after Arriva took over the Northern franchise in April 2016. This was the largest European order for the manufacturer at the time. Eversholt Rail funded the trains.

I guess that the large number of intermediate coaches in the Stadler units distort the comparison somewhat.

 

[SteveM70]

Lights are to bright
Seats are to thin
Window misalignment

Good points. 195 is rubbish for all of those as well

 

[YorksLad12]

Good points. 195 is rubbish for all of those as well

I thought he *was* talking about the 195s!

I think it would be worth comparing the 195s with the 196s and 197s, just to see how poorly (or not) Northern do their interior fits.

 

[O L Leigh]

Lights are to bright
Seats are to thin
Window misalignment

My RUK Bingo Card still has “ineffective A/C” and “harsh suspension” unmarked.

 

[Journeyman]

Lights are to bright
Seats are to thin
Window misalignment

Not an EPB
Not an HST
Not a 442
Not a 365

 

[lkpridgeon]

My RUK Bingo Card still has “ineffective A/C” and “harsh suspension” unmarked.

The AC is fine from my point of view however the suspension can be a little harsh on the 195's

 

[SteveM70]

My RUK Bingo Card still has “ineffective A/C” and “harsh suspension” unmarked.

Funny you should say that. I collapsed into a 755 earlier after 65 miles of cycling in 20+ degrees and it was lovely and cool, so you can scratch the a/c comment

 

[Journeyman]

I've yet to experience the joys of a 755, but they look fantastic, and I wonder how they compare in terms of leasing and running costs with other regional trains. I certainly hope we end up with something that good when ScotRail think about replacing the 15x DMUs on their long rural routes, with a thrash pod powered by batteries/hydrogen/bionic duckweed etc.

 

[The exile]

From the notice I spotted today in the CAF unit accessible toilet ( can’t remember whether 195 or 331 - I spent too long on both) it appears to be possible to start the close and lock function on the loo door, then quickly leave the cubicle, so it ends up locked with no one inside to unlock it!
And given the fact that many accessible loos have no close buttons outside, I bet lots of people have done exactly that, thinking they were being helpful- I nearly did.

 

[RUK]

I was hoping that we'd get something like 755s for East-West Rail - I've not tried one myself yet, but they look great, and have gotten great reviews by all accounts - but it seems that we'll be getting 196s instead, unfortunately, now that we're broke after COVID-19.

 

[Ribbleman]

From the notice I spotted today in the CAF unit accessible toilet ( can’t remember whether 195 or 331 - I spent too long on both) it appears to be possible to start the close and lock function on the loo door, then quickly leave the cubicle, so it ends up locked with no one inside to unlock it!
And given the fact that many accessible loos have no close buttons outside, I bet lots of people have done exactly that, thinking they were being helpful- I nearly did.

A friend of mine did just that a few years ago on a 333 coming away from Ilkley, thinking he was being helpful. Several would be users were hopping around on one leg until the guard sorted out what he told us was a regular occurrence. I think that the 333s have been modified since to prevent this happening.

 

[Phlip]

My RUK Bingo Card still has “ineffective A/C” and “harsh suspension” unmarked.

I commute home on a 195 most working days. The A/C is fine and works.

 

[skyhigh]

From the notice I spotted today in the CAF unit accessible toilet ( can’t remember whether 195 or 331 - I spent too long on both) it appears to be possible to start the close and lock function on the loo door, then quickly leave the cubicle, so it ends up locked with no one inside to unlock it!
And given the fact that many accessible loos have no close buttons outside, I bet lots of people have done exactly that, thinking they were being helpful- I nearly did.

That's not possible on a 195/331 ‐ you can press the close button but the lock switch won't go across until the door is fully shut.

A friend of mine did just that a few years ago on a 333 coming away from Ilkley, thinking he was being helpful. Several would be users were hopping around on one leg until the guard sorted out what he told us was a regular occurrence. I think that the 333s have been modified since to prevent this happening.

They've not been modified, it still happens frequently. The issue is that there's no lock button like you normally get on other units, it's just a combined 'close and lock' button inside the toilet.

 

[superkev]

Ive not sampled a 755 but having a disabled friend the major advantage is the level 755 access. I have to almost phsically lift him up the huge step onto a 195.
With every bus in the country having a wheelchair ramp many of them powered I find it difficult to understand why all new trains aren't like a 755. All credit to Anglia and Mersey rail.
Otherwise the 195s are nice units apart from the appalling ride with constant bangs and crashed from underneath. Sound to be shaking themselves apart. With the recent cracking problems pehaps they are.
K

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps I should have added an emoji to my previous post to denote levity.

 

[cnjb8]

Ive not sampled a 755 but having a disabled friend the major advantage is the level 755 access. I have to almost phsically lift him up the huge step onto a 195.
With every bus in the country having a wheelchair ramp many of them powered I find it difficult to understand why all new trains aren't like a 755. All credit to Anglia and Mersey rail.
Otherwise the 195s are nice units apart from the appalling ride with constant bangs and crashed from underneath. Sound to be shaking themselves apart. With the recent cracking problems pehaps they are.
K

Did Anglia specify the ramps or did Stadler put them in as part of the design?

 

[brick60000]

Ive not sampled a 755 but having a disabled friend the major advantage is the level 755 access. I have to almost phsically lift him up the huge step onto a 195.
With every bus in the country having a wheelchair ramp many of them powered I find it difficult to understand why all new trains aren't like a 755. All credit to Anglia and Mersey rail.
Otherwise the 195s are nice units apart from the appalling ride with constant bangs and crashed from underneath. Sound to be shaking themselves apart. With the recent cracking problems pehaps they are.
K

this is absolutely something I 100% agree with. We now have train designs that can, and have, vastly reduce(d) the dependence of many on others, vastly improving their journey experience and quality of life. This should now be a standard for future train designs - not a case of “if there is money”.

 

[Energy]

Did Anglia specify the ramps or did Stadler put them in as part of the design?

Stadler put them in all of their trains, I've heard them describe it as "step in not step up" in reference to the high speed Giruno train they made for SBB.

 

[XAM2175]

Did Anglia specify the ramps or did Stadler put them in as part of the design?

Stadler put them in all of their trains, I've heard them describe it as "step in not step up" in reference to the high speed Giruno train they made for SBB.

For the avoidance of doubt, I believe that @superkev was referring to buses having ramps as a justification for trains receiving similar accommodations, rather than meaning that the FLIRTs have ramps.

They are fitted by default with extending steps that are commonly referred to as "gap fillers"; these make it easier to step into the carriage, but they don't provide a wheelchair-capable ramp unless the platform is at the same level as the gap filler.

Illustrated by this photograph from https://twitter.com/wherrylines/status/1142012566299979776

(shows a Class 745 or 755 passenger door open at a platform with gap filler extended)

 

[James James]

Did Anglia specify the ramps or did Stadler put them in as part of the design?

Gap fillers are standard, but not just Stadler these days. Earliest Stadler's that I know of are from early 2000s, with a rotating model. Nowadays they sell them with sliding ramps, some trains even have them on 2 levels (e.g. Giruno), although obviously it's not always level-boarding at every door if you have 2 levels of gap-fillers. Alstom, Bombardier, Pesa, and Newag all have similar things these days on the continent. As has been hinted at - the main issue is platforms not matching - some countries have at least decided on a consistent standard, and one that works with double-deckers too (55cm), some have gone for a mix (Germany with both 55cm and 76cm - impossible to give you level boarding everywhere unless you have 2 door-heights a la Giruno - but also hard to build level-boarding for double-deckers at 76cm without wasting a lot of capacity).

UK standard at least theoretically makes it easy to get level boarding without too many steps in the train, but UK standards also make double-decked trains nigh-on impossible so there are some drawbacks there. Unfortunately you can't win in all aspects.

 

[Grumpy Git]

A class 195 is better than a class 150/153/156, after that there is nothing positive to add.

 

[quantinghome]

Hopefully when it's time to replace the Class 150/153/156s new Stadler trains will be procured.

 

[The exile]

That's not possible on a 195/331 ‐ you can press the close button but the lock switch won't go across until the door is fully shut.

apologies - probably getting my Aire Valley Loo experiences muddled up! Had been thinking the combined “ close and lock” button was an excellent idea until I worked out what the (badly worded) notice meant!

 

[507 001]

A class 195 is better than a class 150/153/156, after that there is nothing positive to add.

150 and 153 yes. 156 no.

 

[AverageTD]

150 and 153 yes. 156 no.

Hard disagree there. Although I agree the 156s are a cut above the other 2, every time I get on a 195 now, despite their flaws, I'm thinking about how glad I am that I'm not on anything from the Sprinter family, maybe barring the 158.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Hard disagree there. Although I agree the 156s are a cut above the other 2, every time I get on a 195 now, despite their flaws, I'm thinking about how glad I am that I'm not on anything from the Sprinter family, maybe barring the 158.

I specifically omitted the 158.

 

[gingertom]

I guess that the large number of intermediate coaches in the Stadler units distort the comparison somewhat.

the coaches being shorter, plus those Jacobs bogies really will distort the comparison.

 

[Killingworth]

195s are a big improvement on 30 year old Pacers. However 755s seem 30 years ahead of 195s!

Was on a 755 a fortnight ago and older lady with guide dog came to get off. Knew she was at the doorway, could sense the fresh air. Wouldn't follow the dog forward because she couldn't feel a step!

That feature alone is a winner for both able bodied and disabled people. And yes, they're quiet.

Only worry I'd have would be the ability of the gap fillers and lower level floors to cope with some of Northern's somewhat irregular platform edges - and their serviceability in long term service. Another thing to go wrong?

Otherwise, bring them on.