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Comparing SWT/SWR's past, present, and future timetables.

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AverageTD

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If I'm not mistaken, the current basis of the current non-COVID timetable is based mostly off of SWT's 2004 changes. However I'm curious to see what changes were made to it and just how many changes there were. I'm finding it difficult to find any sort of pre-2004 timetable online or even a list of some of the changes. I'd be interested in how much the timetables different and also what a comparison to SWR's proposed 2022 changes would look like.
 
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swt_passenger

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Dec 2007 was also a key change date, that’s when 2 tph to Weymouth and resulting changes to Poole services started.
 

JonathanH

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The most fundamental change in 2004 was standardisation so that there were fewer 'one-off' trains in the peak and times were more consistent throughout the day.

The timetable up to then had basically evolved over time from a rewrite in 1967 and the 2004 changes were said to have been started from a 'blank sheet of paper'.
 

Nogoohwell

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There was an oddity, the Chessington South service used to be something like 7:45, 8:15, 8:45, 9:00 then every 30 minutes.

The new proposed timetable is reducing the trains through Epsom throughout the day by 50%. Madness as those were some of the busiest trains pre Covid. Will not take much to overwhelm this reduced service.
 

swr444

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There was an oddity, the Chessington South service used to be something like 7:45, 8:15, 8:45, 9:00 then every 30 minutes.

The new proposed timetable is reducing the trains through Epsom throughout the day by 50%. Madness as those were some of the busiest trains pre Covid. Will not take much to overwhelm this reduced service.
It's already full and standing in the morning peak, not helped by numerous short formed sets
 

MontyP

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The most significant changes on the suburbans were that the Dorking services started calling at all stations to Epsom - previously they skipped Raynes Park, Motspur Park and Stoneleigh I think.
Also all the stops at Wimbledon on the fast lines were removed.
The Woking stoppers used to go all the way to Guildford until this timetable change (I think) - did this coincide with the new central bay platform at Woking being built?
 

Southern

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The most significant changes on the suburbans were that the Dorking services started calling at all stations to Epsom - previously they skipped Raynes Park, Motspur Park and Stoneleigh I think.
Also all the stops at Wimbledon on the fast lines were removed.
The Woking stoppers used to go all the way to Guildford until this timetable change (I think) - did this coincide with the new central bay platform at Woking being built?

Even less, off-peak the calling pattern was Leatherhead, Ashtead, Epsom, Wimbledon, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall and Waterloo - hard to imagine considering what the service is now.

The Woking stoppers have run in their current form for what must be over 20 years now, although I believe like the Dorkings, they used to skip Earlsfield. What did at one point run alongside was an additional 2tph Guildford service calling all stations via Woking to Surbiton, then fast to Waterloo.
 

swt_passenger

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The most significant changes on the suburbans were that the Dorking services started calling at all stations to Epsom - previously they skipped Raynes Park, Motspur Park and Stoneleigh I think.
Also all the stops at Wimbledon on the fast lines were removed.
The Woking stoppers used to go all the way to Guildford until this timetable change (I think) - did this coincide with the new central bay platform at Woking being built?
The new Woking P3 dates from the mid 90s, it came up in a recent thread which I can’t find. I had thought wrongly it was somewhat earlier.
 

nw1

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See https://railforums.co.uk/threads/sr-south-western-division-historical-patterns-1967-2003.220711/

This thread quite extensively discusses the service patterns of the second-generation slam-door era from the 1967 Bournemouth electrification up to 2003.

Even less, off-peak the calling pattern was Leatherhead, Ashtead, Epsom, Wimbledon, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall and Waterloo - hard to imagine considering what the service is now.

Such a pattern is something that arguably makes a lot of sense if it's possible to achieve: it gives Dorking a semi-fast service into Waterloo (which most Surrey towns of similar distance to London do have), while still serving important stops with connections (Wimbledon, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall).

The most significant changes on the suburbans were that the Dorking services started calling at all stations to Epsom - previously they skipped Raynes Park, Motspur Park and Stoneleigh I think.
Also all the stops at Wimbledon on the fast lines were removed.
The Woking stoppers used to go all the way to Guildford until this timetable change (I think) - did this coincide with the new central bay platform at Woking being built?

I think it was 1999 when the Guildford stoppers disappeared (see the thread referred to above). But the Woking stoppers date from at least 1997, when Platform 3 did exist. So for a time (1997-99) you had the two Woking stoppers (455s) and two Guildford stoppers, one of which went to Haslemere (VEPs and CIGs) as mentioned above. The Wokings at this time were, I think (as suggested above) Vauxhall-Clapham-Wimbledon-Surbiton then all stations. The Guildford/Haslemere stoppers skipped Vauxhall, Wimbledon, Esher, Hersham, and Byfleet and New Haw.

There was also a phase earlier in the nineties (1992 to ????) when there was a 455-operated Guildford stopper (all from Surbiton) and no separate Woking stopper. And before that, dating from well back into the mists of time, a VEP and CIG-operated Guildford or Portsmouth stopper (Farnham or Portsmouth stopper from 1989-92).

The most fundamental change in 2004 was standardisation so that there were fewer 'one-off' trains in the peak and times were more consistent throughout the day.
I guess there are pros and cons to this. In some ways it's better to have a completely different, but still regular, pattern in the peak as it permits such things as a 30-min pattern off-peak increasing to a 20-min pattern in the peak. Insist on the off-peak pattern in the peak and you potentially end up with a less-regular peak pattern (e.g rather than an 00, 30 off-peak and 00, 20, 40 peak pattern you might end up with something like an xx47 additional in the peak on top of your 00, 30 services). The Southern suburban services of the early BR era (1950s, 1960s) seemed to be particularly good at 'alternative clockfaces' for the peak if you look at old timetables.
The timetable up to then had basically evolved over time from a rewrite in 1967 and the 2004 changes were said to have been started from a 'blank sheet of paper'.

That said the 2004 timetable wasn't quite a complete rewrite and certainly not the first big update since 1967 - the changes of 1999 and 1989 were fairly significant updates. You still had a Weymouth service at roughly xx30 (xx35) and Poole at roughly xx00 (xx05), as per the 1999 timetable. The even-interval half-hourly fast service to Poole was introduced in 1999. The 15-min interval Portsmouth Direct was a radical update and also occurred in 1999. The Southampton-Portsmouth stopper still ran at the same time in the hour. And timings on the Exeter line had changed about quite a bit throughout the 15 years from 1989.

What is remarkable is how the 2004 timetable has remained more or less the same with only minor tweaks to this day - in the sense that the departures out of Waterloo on the main line off peak have remained completely unchanged, without even one or two minute updates to departure times. In the slam-door era, and particularly from around 1986 to 1999, times changed regularly, certainly by a few minutes.
 
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MontyP

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See https://railforums.co.uk/threads/sr-south-western-division-historical-patterns-1967-2003.220711/

This thread quite extensively discusses the service patterns of the second-generation slam-door era from the 1967 Bournemouth electrification up to 2003.



Such a pattern is something that arguably makes a lot of sense if it's possible to achieve: it gives Dorking a semi-fast service into Waterloo (which most Surrey towns of similar distance to London do have), while still serving important stops with connections (Wimbledon, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall).



I think it was 1999 when the Guildford stoppers disappeared (see the thread referred to above). But the Woking stoppers date from at least 1997, when Platform 3 did exist. So for a time (1997-99) you had the two Woking stoppers (455s) and two Guildford stoppers, one of which went to Haslemere (VEPs and CIGs) as mentioned above. The Wokings at this time were, I think (as suggested above) Vauxhall-Clapham-Wimbledon-Surbiton then all stations. The Guildford/Haslemere stoppers skipped Vauxhall, Wimbledon, Esher, Hersham, and Byfleet and New Haw.

There was also a phase earlier in the nineties (1992 to ????) when there was a 455-operated Guildford stopper (all from Surbiton) and no separate Woking stopper. And before that, dating from well back into the mists of time, a VEP and CIG-operated Guildford or Portsmouth stopper (Farnham or Portsmouth stopper from 1989-92).


I guess there are pros and cons to this. In some ways it's better to have a completely different, but still regular, pattern in the peak as it permits such things as a 30-min pattern off-peak increasing to a 20-min pattern in the peak. Insist on the off-peak pattern in the peak and you potentially end up with a less-regular peak pattern (e.g rather than an 00, 30 off-peak and 00, 20, 40 peak pattern you might end up with something like an xx47 additional in the peak on top of your 00, 30 services). The Southern suburban services of the early BR era (1950s, 1960s) seemed to be particularly good at 'alternative clockfaces' for the peak if you look at old timetables.


That said the 2004 timetable wasn't quite a complete rewrite and certainly not the first big update since 1967 - the changes of 1999 and 1989 were fairly significant updates. You still had a Weymouth service at roughly xx30 (xx35) and Poole at roughly xx00 (xx05), as per the 1999 timetable. The even-interval half-hourly fast service to Poole was introduced in 1999. The 15-min interval Portsmouth Direct was a radical update and also occurred in 1999. The Southampton-Portsmouth stopper still ran at the same time in the hour. And timings on the Exeter line had changed about quite a bit throughout the 15 years from 1989.

What is remarkable is how the 2004 timetable has remained more or less the same with only minor tweaks to this day - in the sense that the departures out of Waterloo on the main line off peak have remained completely unchanged, without even one or two minute updates to departure times. In the slam-door era, and particularly from around 1986 to 1999, times changed regularly, certainly by a few minutes.
Not quite true on the last point - the Chessingtons used to depart 16/46 but now 17/47 past the hour. And the Cobhams used to be 02/32, now 03/33 !!

This is probably for the Speculative Ideas thred, but I wonder whether the next total recast (once the impact of Covid is clear) might free up some space to run some faster suburbans on the Cobham/Woking lines? E.g. fast as far as Surbiton then switch to the slow lines. This would have been possible with Crossrail 2 taking the inner suburbans away but now that is not happening any time soon.
 

nw1

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Not quite true on the last point - the Chessingtons used to depart 16/46 but now 17/47 past the hour. And the Cobhams used to be 02/32, now 03/33 !!
OK fair enough ;) To be fair I was referring to the mainline services, rather than suburban - I don't think these have changed at all.
 
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