Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[Bletchleyite]

Bet the design for the housing has "a Euston arch fit for the 21st century" in it

You could probably dig the old one out of the river it was dumped in and put it back up, but it was monstrously ugly.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Because you won't actually get very much and it will guzzle billions.

Exactly

 

[WAO]

Politically, it makes more sense to promise voters something they can relate to, such as fairly local schemes, rather than a narrow vanity project for on-expenses executives and government officials, while the rest of us travel on cheap ticket semi-fasts on the old road. The HS2 problem was that NR wanted nothing to do with it, so it became an independent railway, not an upgrade.

The idea of an electrified network, really centred on Sheffield connecting the Northern cities and including Hull is very attractive as it integrates XC with ECML and future MML wiring. The BCR's will not be as good though, because one HS2 fat-cat will be worth twenty improved ordinary folk's journeys on faster, more capacious EMU's. The idea of a Penistone - Chesterfield service via Sheffield Victoria is "blue sky" to say the least. Leeds will love its trams but not the disruption of construction. Tavistock is at least to get a train but no Newquay - St Austell link, etc etc.

However much gets built when it is the (new) policy of a government in its last year is anyone's guess. Being many projects, it would be easy to cut out some of them later.

WAO

 

[6Gman]

Not if you live in the north and would have had a worse train service to London if HS2 Phase 2 did go ahead.
Also there are people in places such as Leek who will now get a train service and a train connection via Stoke to London.
Previously this was not on a definite project list. May be an own goal in your view, but it doesn’t matter when the team are winning 10-1

"Will now get" or "might now get"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would seem like a terrible decision. I strongly doubt that Euston would be much cheaper with only, say, 6 tracks, but it would forever restrict the number of trains on the remaining HS2. Even more short-sighted than cancelling phase 2.

It's the value of the land which can be used for development. Six platforms (assuming P16 is included in this as per the original plan) will fit almost within the old station footprint, leaving a whole block to develop and sell for an absolute fortune - this is about as prime as UK building land gets.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Exactly right. The real issues here are:

b) being thrown off course by every objector and special interest group, especially if they are in the South East.

That risk is already known about and the prime reason why infrastructure projects take years to develop and get through planning but the cost should be known about at the end of this period. HS2 phase 1 got to that stage but the costs continued to increase. Why? HS2 never tell us Daft seem to want to avoid challenging them as it makes them look part of the problem (they are).

You say SE but HS1 managed it very effectively.

 

[northwichcat]

I shouldn't think much will change on London-Manchester.

Unless 'HS2' services to Manchester end up being 1tph from Manchester to London via Birmingham, I can't see how they'll fit in without service cuts. More services need more paths and if they are replacement services it might mean stations like Wilmslow and Macclesfield see service cuts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless 'HS2' services to Manchester end up being 1tph from Manchester to London via Birmingham, I can't see how they'll fit in without service cuts. More services need more paths and if they are replacement services it might mean stations like Wilmslow and Macclesfield see service cuts.

They'll be the existing Avanti services but running on HS2 between Euston and Handsacre, then going onto the Trent and running as they do now.

 

[MadCommuter]

What's happening to Carlisle-Whitehaven

HS37. Completion date to be confirmed.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The unpopular and very expensive London to Birmingham bit will go ahead, while the more popular and cheaper Birmingham northwards bit will be cancelled - make sense?

The Birmingham northwards bit makes little sense without the line further south - that is where the capacity is needed. More trains just between Birmingham and Manchester wouldn't be worth doing all that work for, and if they can't get further south without displacing other trains, what's the point?

 

[TUC]

Meanwhile, it appears the government does not know that Manchester Metrolink already operates to Manchester Airport as the HS2 announcement included plans to extend the tram to the airport.
'The announcement read: "Nearly £4 billion to improve connectivity, which could pay for schemes such as the extension of the Manchester Metrolink to Heywood, Bolton, Wigan and Manchester Airport and bus rapid transit corridors in Manchester."

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...rnment-pledges-extend-metrolink-line-27842632

 

[greyman42]

I am not saying they are not consistent, in fact the P2a is a no brainer to go-ahead, Rishi just made a terrible decision to cancel P2 together.

Does anyone think that Labour have any plans to announce that they would go ahead with the project if they win the election?

 

[D869]

With so much in tunnels, what proportion of Handsacre-Euston will actually be high speed? Daft question: because they are smaller, could classic-compatibles go quicker in tunnels than captive units?

 

[BlueLeanie]

Why is everyone worrying?

We all know that the next PM will be a Labour PM and Labour have promised HS2 will be completed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With so much in tunnels, what proportion of Handsacre-Euston will actually be high speed?

All of it (though not all will be 400km/h, if I recall the tunnels are slower, though I don't recall how much slower).

Daft question: could classic-compatibles go quicker in tunnels than captive units because they are smaller?

No.

 

[Neen Sollars]

Why is everyone worrying?

We all know that the next PM will be a Labour PM and Labour have promised HS2 will be completed.

..... until they get into power. Previous socialist governments have inherited fairly decent economies, the next one inherits an economy which is on the rocks.

 

[12LDA28C]

With this announcement maybe the mods will consider reopening the thread on Tavistock reopening?

Great idea, maybe also a thread about the trains using the line being powered by unicorns and fairy dust. Do you really believe anything the Government says any more?

 

[Herefordian]

Personally I dont think this is an altogether bad decision.

Euston has been kept and Manchester won't be a great deal slower with HS2 trains joining the Trent Valley north of Lichfield. It is certainly good news for Stoke on Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport.

If North Wales line is juiced then that too can join HS2 south of Rugeley.

The most interesting part of the announcement, HS2 wise was that they will still be running trains to Leeds via HS2 together with the announcement that Sheffield to Leeds will be juiced; so it looks like Euston to Leeds via Trent is planned

Best news of the day for me though is that some of the cash saved is to be used to reopen Bere Alston to Tavistock.

This isn't a money saving exercise. It's reallocating HS2 Phase 2 funds to other projects.

I can tell you now, theoretically, they'll have cost a lot more than £36 billion if they were all delivered.

The small caveat to this announcement though is the Conservatives know they won't be in office for much longer.

This caveat means they know they can promise whatever they like. They won't have to deliver anything.

 

[The Planner]

Yes, and Fenchurch Street managed 20 peak trains per hour on 4 platforms.

But 18tph is the design capacity of HS2, so there can't be more than that coming through.

15 minute turnarounds and one platform in reserve. It's tight but it is potentially doable, although it will require compromises and more complex train planning.

That makes 18tph on 5 platforms. You have ignored platform re-occupation time. 15 minutes is unworkable in that scenario.

 

[swt_passenger]

All of it (though not all will be 400km/h, if I recall the tunnels are slower, though I don't recall how much slower).

I think there are smaller diameter tunnels near the London end that do reduce the speed slightly, but most tunnels are full speed.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

All of it (though not all will be 400km/h, if I recall the tunnels are slower, though I don't recall how much slower).

The contract for the trains is for capability up to 225 mph (360 kph)

 

[The Planner]

Why not spend some of the money on a ECML 140mph upgrade?

Saves little time and 140mph is still an awful lot of work.

 

[northwichcat]

Why is everyone worrying?

We all know that the next PM will be a Labour PM and Labour have promised HS2 will be completed.

Doesn't sound like they were promising it will be completed. It's easier for them to drop it now that Sunak has pulled the plug due to high costs.

But Sir Keir deflected when asked during a visit to the London Stock Exchange if he was guilty of the same “betrayal” by not committing to HS2 in full if he reaches No 10.

“Look, the questions here are for the Government,” he told the PA news agency on Friday.

“They committed to HS2, but now they’ve introduced uncertainty.

“And not only in this area, they’ve introduced uncertainty when it comes to net zero, introducing uncertainty when it comes to our schools.

“What we want, for an incoming Labour government is consistency, certainty and long-term strategic decision making, and that’s what we will get.”

Labour sources have been making clear they do not want to go further than ministers by promising to complete the project, because they may then need to find additional funding.
...
But Labour’s campaign co-ordinator, Pat McFadden, said on Sunday that he needs to see the price-tag before committing to the full original route as “there may be revised costs”.

Labour not guilty of ‘great rail betrayal’ over HS2, Sir Keir Starmer insists

Labour’s position on HS2 has not been entirely clear in recent weeks.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[The Planner]

Why is it good news for Stoke and Macclesfield ? The plans were for HS2 trains to run Euston to Macc (and stopping at Stoke), so scrapping HS2 won’t make much difference to passengers from these stations travelling to London.

They got 1tph, they likely end uo with 2tph by default now

 

[RPI]

Great idea, also maybe also a thread about the trains using the line being powered by unicorns and fairy dust. Do you really believe anything the Government says any more?

Chill out, I only suggested reopening a thread, get off your high horse

 

[northwichcat]

This isn't a money saving exercise. It's reallocating HS2 Phase 2 funds to other projects.

I just had BBC North West Tonight on. They've pointed out the HS2 link from Manchester Airport to Manchester is supposed to be used by Northern Powerhouse Rail and will be an expensive part of it. However, if it's not built as part of HS2 that means the budget for Northern Powerhouse Rail needs to increase.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One phrase notably and thankfully absent today was "world class".
I bet some top rail engineers wish they had not started with such a grandiose specification for HS2.
All the stations are now too large, and we are looking at a halving of the utilisation of the line (9tph rather than 18).
What use will the west-to-north curve of the delta junction, and its massive piers, see?
The rolling stock, and its maintenance, will need reviewing, with longer journey times but fewer trips.
What use are 400m platforms just for Birmingham trains? 260m trains, 10x26 cars, same length as the Pendolino would suit the WCML better.
The contractor bonanza, anticipating long-term work, is now in shreds.
Even the S&C contract, first of the railway contracts, will have to be re-negotiated as it covered Phase 1 and 2a together.
They contractors will now want to protect their returns on the Phase 1 project only.

 

[Snow1964]

What's happening to Carlisle-Whitehaven

See section 45,
not sure when it became Energy Coast Line

enabled for a half hourly service (doesn't mean it will get a service at exactly 30 minutes though, they called the 26 & 34 minutes alternating frequency of Seven Beach line half hourly, when minister opened new station at Portway P&R)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/651d64646a6955000d78b2e0/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

They got 1tph, they likely end uo with 2tph by default now

Stoke currently has 2tph to Birmingham and 2tph to London. All four go through Macclesfield but only two of them stop.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I just had BBC North West Tonight on. They've pointed out the HS2 link from Manchester Airport to Manchester is supposed to be used by Northern Powerhouse Rail and will be an expensive part of it. However, if it's not built as part of HS2 that means the budget for Northern Powerhouse Rail needs to increase.

That's the reason the new Liverpool-Manchester upgrade has got the £12 billion allocated to HS2.