Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[Norm_D_Ploom]

There was an interesting article in the Telegraph a few days ago looking into why the UK struggles with big infra projects and why they’re always late and over budget. They compared the UK to France and a good part of the delay relates to how France plc view personal land/ property

I don’t think it’s a surprise at all. He’s probably rather relieved as it stops him having to try to find the money for HS2 phase 2 if Labour is elected, as seems likely.

I suspect there’s almost no chance of him reinstating it even if the current govt hadn’t sold the land.

Quite , given that Labour gave the Conservatives the hospital pass in 2010 he's probably wary about going in for the tackle !

 

[Bantamzen]

White coffee, but yes. Third cup already.

You are diluting the caffeine though, this will not do...

With this much caffeine in you, surely you can figure out a way to scope me some new lifts at Northwich...!

O/T But strangely enough I was at Northwich last week and a disabled person was complaining about the absence of an accessible route to the Chester platform!

 

[gg1]

Under the latest "plan" (I use that word in it's loosest possible sense in this instance), has it been confirmed one way or the other if there will still be Curzon Street to Manchester/Scotland services via what's left of HS2?

 

[RichW1]

You think ESG and Diversity and Inclusion costs meaningfully inflated the budget of HS2?? I’ll whatever he is having.

Slightly more likely is the fact that they turned down the guy who built HS1 (to time and budget) from the top job because he was ‘inexperienced’ and in all their great experience told the whole supply chain the budget. They then failed to carry out any serious governance oversight because (1) as the Conservative Party have proven over and over again, they are no longer serious people and they cannot tie their own shoe laces, never mind commission and manage anything meaningful (2) There has been a different Transport Secretary every 2 minutes, none of whom have been the sort of impressive people a PM (any of the however many we have had since I got up this morning) with a quarter of brain would put in position during such an important strategic project.

They are pathetic. The only policies Sunak now announces are the scrapping of Conservative policies. Anybody who believes any of the alternate projects have been in thought through properly is smoking something. They looked at a map for anything only just blue, then they looked in the cupboard for anything they could find.

We really must stop all that crazy ESG and Diversity stuff though. It is clearly the real problem here.

Consultants on over-bloated numbers, EDG costs £billions to the UK and Western economies. My history is in banking and property investment as well as consultancy (no, not one of those ones) where I arrange everything in the UK for my clients. Now what I can tell for a fact, is stock markets, therefore pensions, as well as the investment and savings wealth of our citizens has been deeply damaged by ESG and Diversity and Inclusion. It isn’t an opinion, it is known financial fact. It applies to every project and increases costs onto the stratosphere, for worse results and misallocation of capital. It creates perverse incentives, delivers worse results over linger timescales and rewards incompetence. Now you believe ESG is irrelevant, yes? The ‘E’ is for Environmental. Do you know the costs for HS2 just from this one letter in the bureaucracy? It is £billions in consultancy fees and unnecessary planning. In banking it has led to political NOT financially rewarding investment. The acronyms are why banks and financial institutions (especially pensions) are investing not for returns but for political ideological reasons, which is unforgivable if you care at all about people and economies growing. Let me let you into a little secret - pensions have no money in them to pay for you. They are circa 20% under where they should be due to hiring on emotionally incontinent grounds instead of for commercially astute reasons.

HS2 is a failure not because it is the wrong project (although I have my doubts about the two-track section taking so much strain with so many destinations it was to serve) but because it has been executed in the most appalling manner.

We need the best people for the job hired on merit. If they happen to be white, so be it, but this pernicious nonsense needs to be ejected from every commercial space in the Anglospheric world. I say this as France, Italy, Japan et al do not engage in this nonsense and look at the difference.

 

[YorkRailFan]

A tram system fot Leeds but not for Liverpool? Liverpool had a well planned system in 2009 but was taken off us by Alistair Darling. Reports say the money was given to Manchester. Would not surprise me.

Leeds' tram project was rejected by the Government.

 

[nwales58]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall this morning at Network Rail HQ as they discuss how on earth all this is supposed to be delivered....

No need.

2029-2040 is the period in which the GBP36bn of (imaginary) funding will be available. It is somewhere in the Command Paper. Sunak forgot to read out that line in his speech, I imagine. Network Rail may not even exist in its current form by 2030.

All the local reporting, e.g. on Shipley Bypass, really ought to add 'by 2040'.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Under the latest "plan" (I use that word in it's loosest possible sense in this instance), has it been confirmed one way or the other if there will still be Curzon Street to Manchester/Scotland services via what's left of HS2?

The infrastructure remaining in phase 1 would allow an HS2 train to run from Curzon St to the Handsacre Junction and then on the current routes north from there.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Under the latest "plan" (I use that word in it's loosest possible sense in this instance), has it been confirmed one way or the other if there will still be Curzon Street to Manchester/Scotland services via what's left of HS2?

From what I can make out there will still be the triangular junction, but the northerly point only leads to a junction with the WCML at Handsacre. The line from that junction to East Midlands Parkway has been binned.
Therefore, I imagine you can run a HS2 train out of Curzon St and either turn left to go to Handsacre Jn and north onto the WCML, or turn right and pass through Birmingham Interchange and head for Old Oak Common. Not sure about the status of OOC-Euston. I believe the "Birmingham avoider" third leg of the triangle is still being built.

On a recent drive down the A5 to Tamworth the work involved in bridging the A5 seems to have been "paused" piles in the ground but no yellow plant or workers

 

[RichW1]

Absolutely, despite what the deluded folk in Greater Manchester think, it is.

HS2 not going to Manchester is a joke. Outside the bubble, I can tell you the urban economics data isn’t even close. Manchesters urbanised landmass is larger than Birmingham’s, and the population is considerably larger by several hundred thousand people (ignoring imaginary lines such as administrative lines). Further, the GDP of the Manchester area is considerably larger and the status of the companies is that much greater and global in nature. You can also feel it Manchester vs Birmingham. I love the UK. I wish all places to succeed, but the decades old (correct at the time) belief that Birmingham is the Second City just is no longer true on any metric. It is third and neither is it a close run thing (for now). Manchester is also pulling away. Anyway, a topic for another thread. HS2 not going to Manchester and with no addressing of the Castlefield viaduct/corridor is verging in negligence. Manchester is right to be angry. London civil servants can’t even put Crewe on a map in the right place!!

 

[Energy]

Manchester is right to be angry. London civil servants can’t even put Crewe on a map in the right place!!

To be fair, the decision was Sunak (and his personal opinion of public transport). I'd expect many civil servants to have been saving the bits of HS2 they can.

 

[BRX]

Now what I can tell for a fact, is stock markets, therefore pensions, as well as the investment and savings wealth of our citizens has been deeply damaged by ESG and Diversity and Inclusion. It isn’t an opinion, it is known financial fact.

If it's a "known financial fact" rather than an opinion, it's interesting that we can find so many articles like these:

'The impact of ESG on performance is non-existent'

Adding in environmental, social and governance criteria to an investment portfolio does not impact return, research has shown.

www.ftadviser.com

Charles Schwab

 

[21C101]

Given that the junction towards Trent for the canned east leg is being built under phase 1 it wouldn't be a major project to connect it to the Water Orton to Tamworth line enabling HS2 trains to reach Derby via Tamworth

 

[Arkeeos]

It’s interesting that the last mention of the IRP was only a few months ago, 11 july 2023

https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/40851/documents/199024/default/

How many days are we betting the north network was written in?

 

[RichW1]

There is a need to shift people from plane to train for travelling between the Scotland and South of England to reduce CO2 emissions and the only practical way to substantially increase capacity on the trains is to use the two train paths an hour currently used by the AWC trains from London Euston to Glasgow to run 400 metre double set trains and dividing and joining them at Carlisle with one 200 metre set to Glasgow and one 200 metre set to Edinburgh as stated in Annex B of the 2020 full business case for High Speed Two phase one. Also can still run 400 metre trains to Birmingham with the High Speed Two Stations built as currently planned and it is possible that High Speed Two to Manchester could still be built at some point in the future. For all these reasons I would argue that all four High Speed Two Phase One stations including Euston should be built for 400 metre long trains. Scrapping HS2 phase two to Manchester may require there to be trains of different lengths, some 200 metre sets and some 250 metre sets, to make best use of High Speed Two capacity but this is a consequence of the Government's decision to scrap HS2 phase two to Manchester. I assume that to follow the plan in Annex B of the 2020 full business case they would have had to lengthen platforms at some stations on the West Coast Mainline so they should also look at lengthening platforms at some WCML stations.

At 4hrs 30 or so? You have to be joking. I fly every 2-4 weeks and will continue to do so. It is far too slow. Make it 4 hours, it is still too slow. Scotland suffers enormously with rail. It’s even faster to fly to Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds from Glasgow! Tragic state of affairs. Not to have Glasgow and Edinburgh integrated to a British rail network worth a damn is a negation of government responsibility.

 

[class26]

HS2 not going to Manchester is a joke. Outside the bubble, I can tell you the urban economics data isn’t even close. Manchesters urbanised landmass is larger than Birmingham’s, and the population is considerably larger by several hundred thousand people (ignoring imaginary lines such as administrative lines). Further, the GDP of the Manchester area is considerably larger and the status of the companies is that much greater and global in nature. You can also feel it Manchester vs Birmingham. I love the UK. I wish all places to succeed, but the decades old (correct at the time) belief that Birmingham is the Second City just is no longer true on any metric. It is third and neither is it a close run thing (for now). Manchester is also pulling away. Anyway, a topic for another thread. HS2 not going to Manchester and with no addressing of the Castlefield viaduct/corridor is verging in negligence. Manchester is right to be angry. London civil servants can’t even put Crewe on a map in the right place!!

Manchester is "larger" as it claims all surrounding towns in so called greater manchester. Greater Brum theres isn`t (ok west mids) but add in Coventry, Wolverhamton, etc etc and the picture changes

 

[RichW1]

If it's a "known financial fact" rather than an opinion, it's interesting that we can find so many articles like these:

'The impact of ESG on performance is non-existent'

Adding in environmental, social and governance criteria to an investment portfolio does not impact return, research has shown.

www.ftadviser.com

Charles Schwab

Do you know how the FT is viewed? The FT no longer deals in data. It has made Bloomberg type political stances (and been wrong) for years. It is part of the political consensus that is killing productivity. Their best friend is Mark Carney for goodness sake. These used to be respected broadsheets, not anymore, just like most captured media. The facts don’t matter, only the emotion.

 

[Wolfie]

HS2 not going to Manchester is a joke. Outside the bubble, I can tell you the urban economics data isn’t even close. Manchesters urbanised landmass is larger than Birmingham’s, and the population is considerably larger by several hundred thousand people (ignoring imaginary lines such as administrative lines). Further, the GDP of the Manchester area is considerably larger and the status of the companies is that much greater and global in nature. You can also feel it Manchester vs Birmingham. I love the UK. I wish all places to succeed, but the decades old (correct at the time) belief that Birmingham is the Second City just is no longer true on any metric. It is third and neither is it a close run thing (for now). Manchester is also pulling away. Anyway, a topic for another thread. HS2 not going to Manchester and with no addressing of the Castlefield viaduct/corridor is verging in negligence. Manchester is right to be angry. London civil servants can’t even put Crewe on a map in the right place!!

I absolutely agree with your first sentence. The rest less so. Oh, as a London-based Civil Servant originally from the Midlands l would just say don't blame us for that map. Straight out of Number 10.....

Manchester is "larger" as it claims all surrounding towns in so called greater manchester. Greater Brum theres isn`t (ok west mids) but add in Coventry, Wolverhamton, etc etc and the picture changes

Absolutely. The fact that Cov, Wolvo etc have much more significant history than Brum and resent being lumped in with it has implications.

 

[Bletchleyite]

no addressing of the Castlefield viaduct/corridor

Castlefield has nothing to do with HS2 whatsoever. Even most of the services that would go onto NPR serve Victoria, not Castlefield.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Under the latest "plan" (I use that word in it's loosest possible sense in this instance), has it been confirmed one way or the other if there will still be Curzon Street to Manchester/Scotland services via what's left of HS2?

I doubt anybody in government has even though of that.
Assuming the delta junction ar Water Orton gets built as planned, Curzon St-Trent Valley-Stafford-Crewe will be possible.
But there will be little time and commercial advantage over New St-Wolverhampton-Stafford-Crewe without HS2a.
Through trains from Euston via HS2 would have to reverse at Curzon St.
There is no connection between HS2 and the classic network at Birmingham, either towards New St or towards Derby.
I hope somebody will be rethinking those connections now we have a truncated and underutilised HS2.

 

[BAFRA77]

Do you know how the FT is viewed? The FT no longer deals in data. It has made Bloomberg type political stances (and been wrong) for years. It is part of the political consensus that is killing productivity. Their best friend is Mark Carney for goodness sake. These used to be respected broadsheets, not anymore, just like most captured media. The facts don’t matter, only the emotion.

I’m surprised you haven’t blamed the WEF yet

 

[DarloRich]

Consultants on over-bloated numbers, EDG costs £billions to the UK and Western economies. My history is in banking and property investment as well as consultancy (no, not one of those ones) where I arrange everything in the UK for my clients. Now what I can tell for a fact, is stock markets, therefore pensions, as well as the investment and savings wealth of our citizens has been deeply damaged by ESG and Diversity and Inclusion. It isn’t an opinion, it is known financial fact. It applies to every project and increases costs onto the stratosphere, for worse results and misallocation of capital. It creates perverse incentives, delivers worse results over linger timescales and rewards incompetence. Now you believe ESG is irrelevant, yes? The ‘E’ is for Environmental. Do you know the costs for HS2 just from this one letter in the bureaucracy? It is £billions in consultancy fees and unnecessary planning. In banking it has led to political NOT financially rewarding investment. The acronyms are why banks and financial institutions (especially pensions) are investing not for returns but for political ideological reasons, which is unforgivable if you care at all about people and economies growing. Let me let you into a little secret - pensions have no money in them to pay for you. They are circa 20% under where they should be due to hiring on emotionally incontinent grounds instead of for commercially astute reasons.

HS2 is a failure not because it is the wrong project (although I have my doubts about the two-track section taking so much strain with so many destinations it was to serve) but because it has been executed in the most appalling manner.

We need the best people for the job hired on merit. If they happen to be white, so be it, but this pernicious nonsense needs to be ejected from every commercial space in the Anglospheric world. I say this as France, Italy, Japan et al do not engage in this nonsense and look at the difference.

this just reads like crank right bunkum. It isn't because HS2 hired black or brown people that the costs are so high. There will be many hobby horses mounted in relation to this decision.

 

[Bayum]

Leeds' tram project was rejected by the Government.

It’s also difficult to see where and how it would be built to be effective.

 

[DarloRich]

Aren't the works to dual the remainder of the A66 west of the A1 already approved and in progress though ?

i hope so!
The A1 was announced, again, for what must be the 77th time.

National Highways have taken over what was the Llama Cafe on the A66 at Brougham near Penrith for their project office.

The fiends. Will this governmental evil know no end? I hope they are looking after the Llama's ! ( That was always a nice refreshment stop on my way to Scotland)

 

[gg1]

I doubt anybody in government has even though of that.
Assuming the delta junction ar Water Orton gets built as planned, Curzon St-Trent Valley-Stafford-Crewe will be possible.
But there will be little time and commercial advantage over New St-Wolverhampton-Stafford-Crewe without HS2a.
Through trains from Euston via HS2 would have to reverse at Curzon St.
There is no connection between HS2 and the classic network at Birmingham, either towards New St or towards Derby.
I hope somebody will be rethinking those connections now we have a truncated and underutilised HS2.

My concern is the possibility they may decide to cut costs further by dropping the northern chord of delta junction and downsizing Curzon Street so it only has sufficent capacity for London services.

Manchester trains should still be quicker than via the Stour Valley (due to the combination of routing via both the rump HS2 and the Colwich line) but I agree there would probably be negligible time savings in routing Scottish services that way.

 

[21C101]

My concern is the possibility they may decide to cut costs further by dropping the northern chord of delta junction and downsizing Curzon Street so it only has sufficent capacity for London services.

Manchester trains should still be quicker than via the Stour Valley (due to the combination of routing via both the rump HS2 and the Colwich line) but I agree there would probably be negligible time savings in routing Scottish services that way.

There will be a lot of capacity benefits in routing that way and not via two track lines via coventry/wolverhampton that are clogged with suburban services.

 

[PsychoMouse]

Manchesters urbanised landmass is larger than Birmingham’s

No it isn't. Wigan and Bolton are not in Manchester no matter how much you like to pretend they are

and the population is considerably larger by several hundred thousand people

No it isn't

Further, the GDP of the Manchester area is considerably larger and the status of the companies is that much greater and global in nature.

Artificially inflated by a government, who have neglected the Midlands for decades. Plonking organisations there out of sheer pity and pressure to be less London-centric. Imagine how places like Leeds, Liverpool and Sheffield feel. Anything which goes north goes to Manchester. Other cities up north might as well not exist.

belief that Birmingham is the Second City just is no longer true on any metric.

Lol, get real.

Manchester is also pulling away.

No it isn't. Can't wait for the arrogant Mancs to get knocked down a peg or two. 30 years overdue.

Manchester is right to be angry

Diddums

 

[RichW1]

this just reads like crank right bunkum. It isn't because HS2 hired black or brown people that the costs are so high. There will be many hobby horses mounted in relation to this decision.

That is not what I said. Your assertion is false. You ignored everything else that is going on. The S&P 500 is over-bloated on the same ideological hobby horses if you look at the number of companies that don’t make a profit there. It is in excess of 25% now!! Funded by ESG billionaires and others for years, we now have a financial problem… ESG again. Ideology over financially competent people.

I couldn’t give a damn about anyone’s colour. I car about competence. ESG and Diversity policies are costing vast sums of money for no return and costing investment as this has a whole host of bureaucracy that needs to be paid for and complied with. It is perverse, a bit like your reply that made unwarranted accusations. The sort of response one finds in the FT, BBC et al today when someone dares challenge the said bureaucracy I might add. I have been inside it so at least I have some experience. I know what goes on, what it costs and it has now cost HS2. It costs pensions. It costs companies. It’s fine to insult me; water off a duck’s back, but it doesn’t change the reality on the ground.

No it isn't


No it isn't


Artifically inflated by a government, who have neglected the Midlands for decades. Plonking organisations there out of sheer pity.


Lol, get real.


No it isn't. Can't wait for the arrogant Mancs to get knocked down a peg or two. 30 years overdue.


Diddums

Your bias is clear. I develop property now and we all look at the same numbers for viability. I live in neither, I care just about the data and urban mass, combined with the commuting and said contiguous urbanised landmass, transport connections, satellite imagery and future connectivity. Your emotions make not a blind but of difference to what I have stated. It remains the case.

 

[gg1]

There will be a lot of capacity benefits in routing that way and not via two track lines via coventry/wolverhampton that are clogged with suburban services.

I agree, though I highly doubt our esteemed PM does. One of the side benefits of HS2 I was hoping for local to me was released capacity to improve the frequency of the Stour Valley stoppers from the frankly pathetic half hourly service they see at the moment.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The plan to run double sets to Carlisle and divide there was lost when the Golborne link was canned last year.
That pulled down the plan for 400m platforms at Preston and Carlisle, and also the rolling stock depot in Scotland.
Until yesterday the 400m platforms at Crewe were still in the plan (to enable splitting of Liverpool/Preston services), and at Piccadilly.
They have now gone too, so no 400m trains north of Birmingham.
The 2020 business case is now toast.

This Government should not have done this. It shows they have no serious commitment to achieving zero carbon emissions. There is no other solution to moving people flying between Scotland and the South of England to rail and I cannot see any way of meeting zero carbon emissions without this so to meet their carbon emissions targets they will either have to bring all these plans back to life or ban travel between England and Scotland. There are two train paths an hour now between London Euston and Glasgow used by Avanti West Coast services, their continued existence is not dependent on building the Golborne link or the phase two extensions of HS2 and I see no reason why they cannot still make 400m platforms at Crewe, Preston and Carlisle and join and separate pairs of 200 metre long HS2 trains at these stations if they want to. It is this Government's choice, does this Government want people to travel between England and Scotland? Does this Government want to achieve zero carbon emissions?

 

[PsychoMouse]

Your bias is clear.

Pot/Kettle

It remains the case.

Your stories are not fact.