Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[6Gman]

I’ve never seen any proposal that’s gone into detail as to exactly how it would be used. Always seems that reopening it is an article of faith, and the reason why will come along later by accident…

My response to all such reopening ideas is "Show me the timetable".

Without a timetable one cannot evaluate the purpose.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At the very least, we need to safeguard the HS2 routes as they are planned now, as I think has happened on the Eastern leg.
HS2a is more difficult, as most of the land has been purchased and preliminary works started in some places.

 

[MarkWi72]

Just out of interest here, and I can't get my head around this, how will the HS2 trains be able to use the existing network? Signalling? Tilt?

I can only think of two feasible routes. Via Walsall to the Trent Valley at Rugeley TV -Stone -Stoke. Or via the Stour Valley or Grand Junction to Stafford and then via Stoke or Crewe. Double track sections along the majority of those too. Capacity issues?

Did Sunak get advised? Or , as I think this is, just hot air as anyone can speak into a mic.

 

[SteveM70]

Laws enable a railway to be built. They don't require it to be built.

Is that the case? Was it not the case that the Midland petitioned parliament to be allowed not to build the S&C, but were refused? Has the law been changed since then?

 

[slowroad]

I am pro-rail/transport but do massively agree that roads should be maintained to a high standard to avoid negative externalities to road users (including bus/taxi passengers!) from excessive wear. My personal resistance to expanding road networks is because they:
- Do not actually reduce congestion*
- Are against long-term aims of reducing carbon emissions (electric cars don't solve it) - whether people like it or not that is the direction the world is going, so spending on long-term infrastructure to the contrary is not good use of public money. I might be persuaded to accept schemes which cannot easily be substituted by improved public transport for poorly served communities, though I do not think these announcements are in that category
- but most importantly, we almost never see the cost of road schemes compared to public transit projects so the arguments made against transit about ballooning costs do not get fairly applied to road projects. A holistic approach to improving connections from point A to B might suggest a road is fastest if transit would have to start from scratch. But I think if considered together with realistic modelling of capacity impacts and negative externalities to non-road users (eg home owners) I do honestly believe rail/transit would win out in the vast majority of cases.
- what about bus lanes?? Sure, widen a road but do so by adding a new bus lane (in contrast to many bus lanes which take away a lane). There would be no loss of existing road spaces for private vehicles, and those fast(er) buses should hopefully reduce the number of vehicles!

* based on my Economics of Transport class in Uni 15 years ago, and the many other legit sources that I can't be bothered to dig up

As someone with relevant professional expertise, I disagree that the evidence shows that induced traffic is of sufficient magnitude to mean that road expansion can never reduce congestion. And public spending per passenger km is many times higher on rail than road. Externalities may justify this in some circumstances but not in all cases, and still less with EVs.

 

[The Planner]

Just out of interest here, and I can't get my head around this, how will the HS2 trains be able to use the existing network? Signalling? Tilt?

I can only think of two feasible routes. Via Walsall to the Trent Valley at Rugeley TV -Stone -Stoke. Or via the Stour Valley or Grand Junction to Stafford and then via Stoke or Crewe. Double track sections along the majority of those too. Capacity issues?

Did Sunak get advised? Or , as I think this is, just hot air as anyone can speak into a mic.

HS2 connects to the WCML north of Lichfield at Handsacre as always planned. They won't tilt and they will have to use conventional signalling as planned anyway with a handover to ETCS at Handsacre.

 

[Deepgreen]

So much for north/midlands connectivity.

I'm afraid anyone who believed the Tories would see their fatuous "levelling-up" promise through was as accurate in their assessment as the HS2 estimators! They threw Michael Gove at it, after all...

 

[javelin]

So now I read of Hope Valley electrification (Sheffield-Stockport) as well as Sheffield-Leeds (presumably with MML wiring to Sheffield).
Ivanhoe Line, Old Road-Sheffield Vic-Stocksbridge, Stoke-Leek and Gobowen-Oswestry reopening.
Where did they find all that lot?
Where do Network Rail start?

With the exception of Hope Valley/Sheffield-Leeds they are RYR schemes, which of course highlights that these should come from the £500m RYR budget, so should have nothing to do with reallocated HS2 funds.

 

[Phil56]

- what about bus lanes?? Sure, widen a road but do so by adding a new bus lane (in contrast to many bus lanes which take away a lane). There would be no loss of existing road spaces for private vehicles, and those fast(er) buses should hopefully reduce the number of vehicles!

Yep, I agree. My son moved to a new Northern City for his first graduate job a couple of months ago. His flat is on the edge of town, with literally a bus stop right outside. He checked the timetables and found it was ideal. So planned to get the bus to work each day, and also for going socialising etc at night. In reality, they either never turned up at all, or got stuck in traffic queues, despite bus lanes (which reduce the width of the road), bus traffic light gates (which increase congestion/queueing etc.). He got fed up of not only being late for work, but also for having to leave town early at night to get the last bus back home (10pm ish) which he also found sometimes was just cancelled on a whim leaving him stranded. So, he's bought a car and is now joining the rest of the traffic, but at least he can use a few short cuts he's found to get around the worst of the congestion and can virtually guarantee getting to work on time, despite leaving home later, and he's "free" for his evening entertaining/socialising. The answer to congestion is proper bus lanes, reliable bus services, etc - NOT causing more congestion for motorists with half-baked bus priority schemes that make other traffic congestion worse.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HS2 connects to the WCML north of Lichfield at Handsacre as always planned. They won't tilt and they will have to use conventional signalling as planned anyway with a handover to ETCS at Handsacre.

Which means Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool/Scotland trains via Handsacre will have little advantage over current routes without the high speed section to Crewe.
But it does mean the two London-Manchesters via Stoke can stay on the North Staffs instead of further congesting Crewe-Cheadle Hulme.

 

[HSTEd]

Is that the case? Was it not the case that the Midland petitioned parliament to be allowed not to build the S&C, but were refused? Has the law been changed since then?

In that case the Midland's competitors arranged for Parliament to insert a clause requiring the railway to be built.

Most such acts of parliament do not contain such provisions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that the case? Was it not the case that the Midland petitioned parliament to be allowed not to build the S&C, but were refused? Has the law been changed since then?

Each Railway Act stands alone.

 

[ole man]

So will the HS2 trains continue to travel on the WCML from Birmingham?
What are they replacing?

 

[GardenRail]

same old Tories, same old insert expletive.

• The detail on the 30 minute Bradford > Manchester journey should be fun!
• What does "bring back the Don Valley line" mean?
• I am sure some Tories donors will coin themselves silly on the "Euston Development Zone"
• Electrify north Wales coast? Why - beyond marginals
• Upgrade the "energy coast line" (?) - Assume more marginals with loudmouth MP's that need appeasing.

the one sensible suggestion is the Leeds tram but none of this is going to happen - get these clowns out. Don't fall for this silliness. Election now.

Who shall we vote for next time then....?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So will the HS2 trains continue to travel on the WCML from Birmingham?
What are they replacing?

Themselves. Instead of running up the regular WCML, they run up HS2 to Handsacre and join the WCML there.

 

[DarloRich]

Who shall we vote for next time then....?

Anyone you like. I would simply say if you believe the noise the Tories come out with you are a touch foolish.

 

[rich.davies]

Hilariously it's listed as costing just £1bn.

I'd rather he'd flung the money at the borderlands line instead but there we are..

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The full list is online.

I’ll believe it when I see it but it does mention reopening the Ivanhoe line:

Find out about every new transport project in your region

As a result of the decision to scrap the extension of HS2, every region will now receive investment in the modes of transport that matter to you most.

www.gov.uk

The Government has published a separate list here: This is a shorter list and doesn't give the same items. As far as I can see there are some items on this list not on the other list, and vice versa. So it's a little confusing.

Communities in towns, cities and rural areas will see improved transport infrastructure far sooner through £19.8 billion reinvested in the North, including:

• £2 billion for a new station at Bradford and a new connection to Manchester;
• £2.5 billion to deliver a new mass transit system in West Yorkshire;
• £3 billion for upgraded and electrified lines between Manchester and Sheffield, Sheffield and Leeds, Sheffield and Hull, and Hull-Leeds.
• Nearly £4 billion more funding for local transport in the North’s six city regions.
• A new £2.5 billion fund for local transport across all areas in the North outside the six city regions – smaller cities, counties, towns and countryside.
• A new £3.3 billion fund for road resurfacing.
• Landmark investments in roads, reopened train lines and new stations;

We will also invest a further £12 billion to better connect Manchester to Liverpool. This would allow the delivery of Northern Powerhouse Rail as previously planned, including high-speed lines. But we will work with local leaders to agree whether they wish to suggest other ways to achieve the objectives within that cost envelope.

£9.6 billion reinvested in the Midlands:

• Funding the Midlands Rail Hub in full with £1.75 billion, connecting 50 stations and over 7 million people – doubling capacity and frequency;
• Over £1.5 billion guaranteed local transport funding for the new East Midlands Mayor;
• Over £1 billion extra local transport funding for West Midlands City Region;
• A new £2.2 billion fund for local transport across all areas in the West and East Midlands outside the city regions – smaller cities, counties, towns and countryside.
• Reopened train lines and new stations such as the Ivanhoe Line;
• The development of Midlands road schemes to benefit businesses and their employees at Rolls Royce, Toyota, and Magna Park, generating over £12 billion for the local economy.

£6.5 billion for the rest of the country:

• Rail improvements in the Southwest;
• Keeping the £2 bus fare until the end of December 2024;
• Ensuring the delivery of road schemes;
• Transforming Ely Junction; and billions to fix potholes on the country’s roads;
• Greater connectivity for both Scotland and Wales with improvements to the A75 between Gretna and Stranraer, and £1 billion to fund the electrification of the North Wales Main Line.

To ensure regions are best equipped to reach their productivity potential, local authorities and Metro Mayors will be empowered to create the public transport networks that their communities want to see. We will also set out a broader package of infrastructure planning reforms in the coming months to remove burdens to building to ensure these projects are delivered and benefits felt in communities more quickly.

 

[The Planner]

Which means Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool/Scotland trains via Handsacre will have little advantage over current routes without the high speed section to Crewe.
But it does mean the two London-Manchesters via Stoke can stay on the North Staffs instead of further congesting Crewe-Cheadle Hulme.

Pretty much, means you can bin off the Macclesfield service and Stoke gets two HS2 services by default.

 

[Undaunted]

A complete and utter shambles. No-one would ever have advocated building a high speed line from London to Birmingham as there would not have been a viable business case. And yet that is what we will now have. And Mr 'new politics' Sunak will not be around to pick up the pieces of his cynical short-termism.

As an example of the way this country approaches major projects, it is an embarrassment.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It seems to me that it's not a bad list as far as rail and bus is concerned (ignoring the items on it that were being done anyway), but I really can't believe you could do all that with the money saved from scrapping HS2 Phases 2a/2b. I'm sure some stuff has been thrown into it in an aspirational way without having been thought through that much.

 

[nlogax]

I will stick my neck out here and say it [isn’t] the end of HS2. It is scrapped north of Birmingham (for now). The ESG and Diversity & Inclusion nonsense and wider waste, meaning it costs many times more to build this in the UK than other countries must end. Once we created a better framework for infrastructure delivery (yes, we are talking years) then it is my belief a later government will look at this again. Our culture is wrong. Everything needs to be reset, costs controlled, methods changed. The consultant gravy train will be replaced.

Something not being picked up here, but absolutely core to the future direction - see tweet from Faisal Islam, BBC Economics editor;

https://nitter.net/faisalislam/status/1709544532935598264#m

Faisal Islam@faisalislam
Land acquisition for phase 2a to Crewe suspended immediately… Government to start reselling properties it bought for hs2 phase 2

The government seems determined to nuke any hopes of restarting the project from orbit ahead of the next GE.

 

[DarloRich]

It seems to me that it's not a bad list as far as rail and bus is concerned (ignoring the items on it that were being done anyway), but I really can't believe you could do all that with the money saved from scrapping HS2 Phases 2a/2b. I'm sure some stuff has been thrown into it in an aspirational way without having been thought through that much.

I agree.

 

[MarkyT]

Leamside is going to cost a fortune. Is it to open as a metro route or a national rail route? I am surprised to see so little for the north east. High Viz Houchen wont be pleased.

I suppose it doesn't explicitly say it's reopening as rail - might just get tarmac'ed over and become a bus lane!

The north part particularly makes most sense as a Metro extension. A grade-separated junction can be fashioned easily at Pelaw and after passing through the Washington area, the line could cross the Victoria viaduct over the Wear then continue on to approach the existing South Hylton Metro terminus for a run on to Sunderland. Just south of the Victoria viaduct, the main Leamside line could also be used by Metro trains through Fence Houses to near Junction 62 on the A1(M) where a new route into central Durham at near River level could be created paralleling the A690, or the old Belmont viaduct route back across the Wear to the ECML might be rebuilt and an additional independant single line added next to the main line into a new Metro terminal constructed next to Durham's existing station at the same high level. There could be scope for shared use of the Leamside line as a whole by freight diverted from the main line, with the shared infrastructure between Pelaw and Sunderland forming a precedent. I see little benefit diverting national rail passenger trains, either local or long distance, from the main line to the Leamside line as that would miss out the useful and lucrative central Durham stop.

 

[Magdalia]

Could we collectively go through the list (gov's list) and identify:

- how many of the 78 bullet points are things that have previously been announced, so NOT new money

- how many of them are the same thing repeated multiple times (eg the pothole stuff gets mentioned 8 times)

- whether the funding announcement matches the apparent scale of the works

(And if there are any true masochists on here, perhaps mark it for grammar)

The document reads like someone's told an intern or placement student to create a powerpoint and they must get at least 75 bullet points

I had been looking at this too. There's a section for 8 of the 9 English regions, Wales and Scotland. London and Northern Ireland don't get anything.

The potholes and the £2 bus fare are on the list 8 times, once for each England region. Each of these also has a list of road schemes that look like they were found in the back of a filing cabinet, sometimes spread over multiple points.

For the East of England we only get three more points, all of which relate to one project at Ely North Junction.

As for your last sentence, you may say that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The government seems determined to nuke any hopes of restarting the project from orbit ahead of the next GE.

More likely it wants money for tax cuts in advance of the GE, which means selling quick.

 

[HSTEd]

The government seems determined to nuke any hopes of restarting the project from orbit ahead of the next GE.

Ultimately, without primary legislation the government can't extinguish the authorities to compulsorily purchase properties. They only sunset in 2026 (can be extended if needed).

 

[MarkWi72]

HS2 connects to the WCML north of Lichfield at Handsacre as always planned. They won't tilt and they will have to use conventional signalling as planned anyway with a handover to ETCS at Handsacre.

So that section is still going ahead?

 

[Deepgreen]

Breaking news - HS2 is now to be 're-programmed' to run between Milton Keynes and Bletchley with a daily bus link to Old Oak Common...

 

[Sentinel]

Just out of interest here, and I can't get my head around this, how will the HS2 trains be able to use the existing network? Signalling? Tilt?

I can only think of two feasible routes. Via Walsall to the Trent Valley at Rugeley TV -Stone -Stoke. Or via the Stour Valley or Grand Junction to Stafford and then via Stoke or Crewe. Double track sections along the majority of those too. Capacity issues?

Did Sunak get advised? Or , as I think this is, just hot air as anyone can speak into a mic.

Handsacre junction onto WCML. Already part of HS2 Phase 1.