Connectivity Challenges with Digital Railcard

[Adam Williams]

If it's encrypted then the decryption key needs to be somewhere. If it's known by rail staff, then it just takes one bent staff member to leak it. It can't be online because there isn't consistent coverage on trains. And if it's stored on the device it's as good as useless if the device is lost.

To be fair, you could quite easily have the original retailer encrypt the photo per railcard and store each railcard's photo decryption key in the railcard barcode.

I think calling them "non-excuses" is cynical and unreasonable. These are massive practical challenges, costs, and risks for the railway to deal with, for the very low payoff of allowing Railcard holders, who already have multiple ways to store and display their Railcards, a different way of low to no additional convenience.

I think my own view is somewhere in the middle here. @Watershed does have a point in that the priority would not really appear to be customer convenience / user experience in this area, at present. Do passengers really want to download another app for everything? I'm inclined to think that allowing them to be stored in a wallet doesn't present insurmountable challenges, but you'd need to handle the whole concept very carefully. If you wanted truly offline validation support, you'd need to take steps to ensure passengers who had just purchased a railcard were not penalised.

if the railway's technology fails to deliver the photo at time of scanning, then it should give the benefit of the doubt

Agreed.

To be honest, I agree with @Bletchleyite here. You could just store photo URLs in the barcode. If the guard has no mobile coverage then the passenger just gets the benefit of the doubt and the photos displayed on the pass/device are relied upon instead, otherwise you fetch the images and display them. We're getting to the point now where coverage and WiFi isn't as bad as it once was.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Other countries don't seem to require photos for their discounted travel cards - we didn't need them for the 50% discount card for Switzerland, for example. Just bought them online, added to the app and used for discounted travel across the entire network with zero issues.

Was this the 1 month tourist version? The annual physical card does have a photo.

Interestingly the Network Railcard physical version doesn't (which means people do hand them round, as with the Family, as long as the gender is the same or it's a gender non-specific name it's unlikely to be picked up) but the phone version does! I suspect that's just that it was easier to require them for all on the app, though.

To be honest, I agree with @Bletchleyite here. You could just store photo URLs in the barcode. If the guard has no mobile coverage then the passenger just gets the benefit of the doubt and the photos displayed on the pass/device are relied upon instead, otherwise you fetch the images and display them. We're getting to the point now where coverage and WiFi isn't as bad as it once was.

The other thing to guard against is people copying them, but you could do that on a more big-data basis by picking up where a given Railcard has been used in two incompatible places or twice on the same train. Most fraud involving duplication (where it couldn't just be done by handing the card round as people often do with NSEs and others not requiring a photo for the physical card) would be able to be picked up based on that. For instance if a Railcard was scanned in Wick and had been used 10 minutes ago in London, then there's clearly grounds for submitting a report for investigation.

 

[MrJeeves]

Apple Pay/Wallet and Google Wallet both support rotating barcodes, which seems like the perfect feature for something like railcards in mobile wallets.

Things like the railcard photo would probably be the trickier part -- I've not looked into how this could be achieved, but I'm sure something is possible, even if it is a bodge.

RDG seem to have worked with Google on the Wallet spec to the point that Google has various features on transit pass objects that seem somewhat UK-focused, like ticket type names, time and route restrictions (with UK examples) and more (even though the current E-Ticket spec doesn't make use of these).

 

[skyhigh]

To be honest, I agree with @Bletchleyite here. You could just store photo URLs in the barcode. If the guard has no mobile coverage then the passenger just gets the benefit of the doubt and the photos displayed on the pass/device are relied upon instead, otherwise you fetch the images and display them. We're getting to the point now where coverage and WiFi isn't as bad as it once was.

This would be the obvious solution.

Despite the objections raised upthread it simply isn't practical to have 1TB of photos stored on every scanning device. For example, one of my previous depots had in the region of 100 ticket machines - downloading 2.8TB of data a night to account for new card issues is getting silly when the above solution would solve 95% of issues.

To be honest, there are much more pressing issues that need to be dealt with - for example the fact there seems to be absolutely no validation of the photos supplied. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen the photo be a photo of a passport cover/photo page as the holder has taken the "please supply a passport photo" literally.

 

[rs101]

Was this the 1 month tourist version? The annual physical card does have a photo.

Interestingly the Network Railcard physical version doesn't (which means people do hand them round, as with the Family, as long as the gender is the same or it's a gender non-specific name it's unlikely to be picked up) but the phone version does! I suspect that's just that it was easier to require them for all on the app, though.



The other thing to guard against is people copying them, but you could do that on a more big-data basis by picking up where a given Railcard has been used in two incompatible places or twice on the same train. Most fraud involving duplication (where it couldn't just be done by handing the card round as people often do with NSEs and others not requiring a photo for the physical card) would be able to be picked up based on that. For instance if a Railcard was scanned in Wick and had been used 10 minutes ago in London, then there's clearly grounds for submitting a report for investigation.

Yep, was the 1 month tourist version. A refreshing change to use compared to a Network Railcard (no silly time restrictions or minimum fares!)

I don't think I've ever had my digital railcard scanned - it's been checked a couple of times, but not with a reader.

 

[MrJeeves]

I don't think I've ever had my digital railcard scanned - it's been checked a couple of times, but not with a reader.

When GWR check tickets on the North Downs Line, I typically have my railcard checked and also scanned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When GWR check tickets on the North Downs Line, I typically have my railcard checked and also scanned.

Interesting, I've never known Railcards be scanned ever.

 

[HarryF]

Interesting, I've never known Railcards be scanned ever.

From my experience of travelling on LNER, I’d say my railcard is scanned at least 50% of the time.

 

[sor]

Interesting, I've never known Railcards be scanned ever.

I had my digital card scanned precisely once over the few years I had one (26-30). I said it was a surprise and the guard showed me how it displayed on their phone. Nothing particularly stunning (and no photo!)

 

[setdown]

Interesting, I've never known Railcards be scanned ever.

I had my 26-30 scanned on Avanti, but not the Senior railcard of the person sat next to me. I wonder why?

 

[Towers]

I had my 26-30 scanned on Avanti, but not the Senior railcard of the person sat next to me. I wonder why?

There is far, far less fraud involving Senior Railcards than for some other types. Modern day ticket checks take staff an absolute age if they are thorough, and so a lot of the time they will focus on checking the ‘riskier’ types of Railcards, if any at all.

I’m not offering argument in defence or otherwise of that, but it’ll likely be the explanation! Either that or you just look a bit shifty!

 

[OscarH]

Interesting, I've never known Railcards be scanned ever.

It's a shame, they really should be

There is far, far less fraud involving Senior Railcards than for some other types. Modern day ticket checks take staff an absolute age if they are thorough, and so a lot of the time they will focus on checking the ‘riskier’ types of Railcards, if any at all.

I’m not offering argument in defence or otherwise of that, but it’ll likely be the explanation! Either that or you just look a bit shifty!

Or are seniors just more likely to be let off because they're seen as more trustworthy

 

[Haywain]

It's a shame, they really should be


Or are seniors just more likely to be let off because they're seen as more trustworthy

Or because they only have to qualify for the railcard once?

 

[Towers]

Or because they only have to qualify for the railcard once?

They still need to pay for it again upon expiry, though!

 

[AM9]

They still need to pay for it again upon expiry, though!

Yes, and probably so few don't that any losses are insignificant compared with those of other demographic groups. The majority of senior railcard holders that I know aren't chancers or bearing grudges that the railway owes them free travel, - maybe because they grew up in a different age when that type of crime wasn't blamed on other factors, like the poverty, and anti-social behaviour of others.

 

[spag23]

At the risk of sounding morbid, the industry must benefit from Senior Railcard holders (like me!) being more likely to expire before their Card does, compared to youngsters' cards.

 

[D1537]

From my experience of travelling on LNER, I’d say my railcard is scanned at least 50% of the time.

I'd say that's about the same for me on LNER (Two Together Card). I don't think I've ever been asked for it on Avanti or WMT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say that's about the same for me on LNER (Two Together Card). I don't think I've every been asked for it on Avanti or WMT.

I'm very rarely asked for any ticket on WMT other than at the gateline.

I very rarely use a Railcard on Avanti, having only a Network Railcard, but I've not seen them doing double scans on anyone else.

 

[D1537]

I'm very rarely asked for any ticket on WMT other than at the gateline.

I've been gripped a couple of times out of Euston on the Crewe service in the last year or so, and also more recently out of Moor St on a Leamington train. but yeah, they're not exactly common (and as said, I've never been asked for a railcard, nor seen anyone else asked for one).

 

[fandroid]

Yes, and probably so few don't that any losses are insignificant compared with those of other demographic groups. The majority of senior railcard holders that I know aren't chancers or bearing grudges that the railway owes them free travel, - maybe because they grew up in a different age when that type of crime wasn't blamed on other factors, like the poverty, and anti-social behaviour of others.

I think us Senior Railcard holders see them as a very nice extension of freedom to travel, after years of only having been eligible for local cards, such as Network Railcards. So we generally think we're getting excellent value for money, well worth the outlay. If we want to save money we just stop travelling on the trains.

 

[camhef]

I'm a bit late to the party but...

I have a 3-year Senior Railcard with trip.com and it is not available when offline

If I am offline and start the trip.com app I can select the 'Trains' page. On that page there is a link to 'My Railcards'. That will not open unless I am online.

I suspect this mean the app is not compliant with RDG policy.

I will start a chat with trip.com to see what they say.

 

[Brissle Girl]

This whole thread makes me wonder why we needed to replace a perfectly simple and usable piece of plastic card with a system that is expensive and complex and still has disadvantages that would cost millions to address.

I make sure my card is in my wallet when I travel - I show it to the inspector on the train when my ticket is asked for. I don’t need to faff around unlocking my phone, loading the app, making sure I have charge, or data, and the inspector can see at a glance that it is valid. Simples!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

This whole thread makes me wonder why we needed to replace a perfectly simple and usable piece of plastic card with a system that is expensive and complex and still has disadvantages that would cost millions to address.

I make sure my card is in my wallet when I travel - I show it to the inspector on the train when my ticket is asked for. I don’t need to faff around unlocking my phone, loading the app, making sure I have charge, or data, and the inspector can see at a glance that it is valid. Simples!

Yes but the digital version arrives (pretty much) instantly after purchase, and can be held on multiple devices.
I like the digital railcards and will continue to use them.

(I use the main railcard app)

 

[FenMan]

I'm intrigued by the argument the advantage of a digital railcard is that it can be be held on multiple devices. How many different devices (each with a point of failure if the battery runs out) would a passenger take on their journey? One, in nearly all cases.

But a physical piece of plastic, in a wallet or whatever, has a 100% guaranteed success rate of being produced on demand and being accepted. I'm with Brissie Girl on this.

 

[MrJeeves]

I'm with Brissie Girl on this.

And that's why we have this incredible thing called choice*.

I know I would lose my physical railcard before my phone many times over.

* Unless you're 26-30...

 

[FenMan]

And that's why we have this incredible thing called choice*.

I know I would lose my physical railcard before my phone many times over.

How do you cope with house keys, if you're that forgetful?

 

[ikcdab]

Not if you lose it, the dog eats it or goes in the washing machine. No, I prefer the digital version every time...

 

[MrJeeves]

How do you cope with house keys, if you're that forgetful?

Not often I've forgotten them, but I do happen to live with three other people, two of which spend most of their time at home. It's definitely happened. Last time was probably a week ago when I went to the shops.

Difference is that if I forget my keys, I have someone to let me in. If I forget my Railcard, I could get a criminal record.

 

[FenMan]

Not often I've forgotten them, but I do happen to live with three other people, two of which spend most of their time at home. It's definitely happened. Last time was probably a week ago when I went to the shops.

Difference is that if I forget my keys, I have someone to let me in. If I forget my Railcard, I could get a criminal record.

How many digital devices do you always take on train journeys, just in case?

 

[MrJeeves]

How many digital devices do you always take on train journeys, just in case?

Usually two phones (I have a passion for mobile networks, hence one SIM with each network in two dual SIM phones) and a power bank (specifically my 96Wh Anker one), and usually a 100W power adapter for myself and friends I'm with.

Not too uncommon for me to sling my small XPS 13 into the backpack too as it's only just over a kilo which is nothing on my back and lets me be productive wherever I'm going.