Connectivity issues between the Hampshire & Dorset coast and Devon & Cornwall

[nw1]

Given how minor a road the A35 is- busy perhaps, but it is narrow, twisty and goes through villages, not round them- there's an implication that the transport corridor is either
A: low in demand
B: hugely underserved and in need of massive investment to unlock demand

or

C: goes through a very beautiful and topographically difficult area which a major road would have a big impact upon.
I suspect there would be _huge_ objections - and rightly so - if they were to build a major highway through coastal West Dorset.

There must be significant demand from Bournemouth to Devon and Cornwall - if you're driving you live with the A35, or head north from Dorchester to join the A303 (if that's any quicker - not sure), but rail is difficult. Practically, if a curve at Dorchester is impossible maybe they could build a Dorchester Junction station to the south of the town where services could reverse, then a curve at Yeovil.

However in the current climate there is (sadly) no appetite to improve railways purely for the leisure market - not enough profit in it - so the chances of it happening are approximately zero. You'd also get students I suspect travelling to and from university, but again, that would be restricted to certain times of the year.

Going back to that "building a railway network from scratch" thread, I suspect if we started over from scratch we'd build a South Coast Railway up the Stour valley towards Gillingham from Bournemouth and then follow a route similar to the existing Salisbury-Exeter route.

 

[Dougal2345]

There was a Jurassic Coast bus link (X53) connecting Exeter with Lyme Regis and Weymouth, but I believe declining passenger numbers and withdrawal of subsidy led to its demise. I realise that a bus and train are not the same, but it could demonstrate that there is not the demand for a similar rail service.

I travelled on that bus a few times eight or nine years ago, starting at Poole, and it would quickly fill up and was packed by Weymouth. It must hae been quite a sharp decline...

 

[Cowley]

The A35 is a busy road. Not as busy as the east to west A303 further north, but if the general road improvements hadn’t slowed down to the trickle that they have in the last twenty years then I’m sure much of it would be dual carriageway by now rather than the slow sections we still have through some of the villages and small towns in Dorset and Devon.
It’s an important trunk route for HGVs that cover the South - South West coast and carries a large amount of holiday traffic in summer time.

I think that if the A35 had continued being developed over the last 18 years (quite a few bypasses and linked up sections were planned but never built) at the rate that it was being upgraded in the 1980s and 90s, there would probably be far less need for a rail passenger service between Hampshire and Devon via Dorset now, as a decent bus service could cover the ground fairly quickly, and until it was withdrawn, the plus four hour journey between Exeter and Bournemouth (a distance of only 90 miles) may not have shown the full potential of the route because personally on the occasional time that I’ve wanted to travel that way by bus in the past it’s actually been quicker to do the circuitous route via Salisbury and Southampton on the train than sitting on the bus for nearly five hours. I’ve also had friends that wanted to come down from Bournemouth on public transport but couldn’t believe how awkward it was.
Unfortunately (unless you like hills and nice scenery, which I do) nearly the whole area between Bournemouth and Exeter around the coast is hilly, rural and has nowhere particularly important in terms of population, Weymouth and Dorchester are reasonable sized towns but don’t justify much more than they already have.

I like the idea of some kind of service that perhaps takes a new chord towards Weymouth at Yeovil Junction, it doesn’t need to be a particularly frequent service (maybe one each way in the morning and afternoon Monday to Saturday?) but obviously it would have to reverse to carry on towards Poole and Bournemouth somewhere around Dorchester/Weymouth and this bit seems pretty awkward to me. By the time you’ve done all that it’s still going to take an age and you haven’t even got further than about sixty miles up the coast from Exeter.
I think it may always remain a bit of a backwater.

 

[Wirewiper]

Whilst the X53 was a good route, its benefits were more for the intermediate communities.

If I were designing a bus route between Exeter and Bournemouth I would operate a limited stop coach service, following the A35 as far as possible. It would start at Exeter St David's and finish at Bournemouth Interchange, and would be fully integrated into rail ticketing. There would be stops at Exeter Bus Station, Honiton Road Park-and-Ride, Exeter Airport, Honiton High Street, Wilmington, Kilmington, Axminster Rail Station (double-run off A35), Raymond's Hill, Wood Farm (for Charmouth/Lyme Regis), Morecombelake, Chideock, Bridport High Street, Winterbourne Abbas, Dorchester South Station, Puddletown (A35 Interchange), Bere Regis (on A35), Organford Cross, Poole Bus Station, Parkstone, Branksome then via the A338 to Bournemouth Interchange.

 

[Cowley]

Whilst the X53 was a good route, its benefits were more for the intermediate communities.

If I were designing a bus route between Exeter and Bournemouth I would operate a limited stop coach service, following the A35 as far as possible. It would start at Exeter St David's and finish at Bournemouth Interchange, and would be fully integrated into rail ticketing. There would be stops at Exeter Bus Station, Honiton Road Park-and-Ride, Exeter Airport, Honiton High Street, Wilmington, Kilmington, Axminster Rail Station (double-run off A35), Raymond's Hill, Wood Farm (for Charmouth/Lyme Regis), Morecombelake, Chideock, Bridport High Street, Winterbourne Abbas, Dorchester South Station, Puddletown (A35 Interchange), Bere Regis (on A35), Organford Cross, Poole Bus Station, Parkstone, Branksome then via the A338 to Bournemouth Interchange.

It’d be interesting to know how long the journey would take?
Like you say limited stop etc.

 

[Wirewiper]

It’d be interesting to know how long the journey would take?
Like you say limited stop etc.

Difficult to know. I have tried to keep it on the A35 as much as possible, but I think that Honiton, Axminster (Station), Bridport and Dorchester (South Station) are worth diverting off for, and there is definitely a case for trying to grow the market for Exeter Airport.

The real time-consuming bits will be in and out of Exeter, and between Poole and Bournemouth. However I do think the service will be more attractive if it goes through to Bournemouth instead of curtailing at Poole.

 

[Parallel]

Also, no effort seems to be made to hold any trains at Westbury. The amount of times a late running Portsmouth service rolls in just as the HST is departing an adjacent platform. Then it’s 2hrs until the next one...

 

[30907]

Difficult to know. I have tried to keep it on the A35 as much as possible, but I think that Honiton, Axminster (Station), Bridport and Dorchester (South Station) are worth diverting off for, and there is definitely a case for trying to grow the market for Exeter Airport.

The real time-consuming bits will be in and out of Exeter, and between Poole and Bournemouth. However I do think the service will be more attractive if it goes through to Bournemouth instead of curtailing at Poole.

It would cost only a minute or two to serve Charmouth properly. Lyme Regis I agree is off-route (and so did the railway crayonistas of the 1850s).

 

[700007]

The DfT often encourages TOCs to look at different Rail routes. Ironically they have actually tried to press forward the idea of a Brighton to Exeter service, and for better connections and more frequent trains along the Severn & Solent line (Portsmouth to Cardiff) and the Heart of Wessex.

The Transwilts programme is also due to be delivered soon, connecting Southampton up to Swindon and the smaller stations along the way to help out the Severn & Solent line.

 

[Wirewiper]

It would cost only a minute or two to serve Charmouth properly. Lyme Regis I agree is off-route (and so did the railway crayonistas of the 1850s).

I did consider Charmouth, but I felt a stop there would not generate enough custom. My suggestion of a stop at Wood Farm would serve both Charmouth and Lyme Regis, whilst keeping the coach on the A35. Ideally the stop would be just off the roundabout and would have a decent shelter plus a small parking area, so people could be picked up or set down at the stop by car or taxi; this would also make the service accessible from the surrounding villages and countryside. In that sense it would be no different to driving/taxi-ing to and from the nearest railway station.

 

[HowardGWR]

Given how minor a road the A35 is- busy perhaps, but it is narrow, twisty and goes through villages, not round them- there's an implication that the transport corridor is either
A: low in demand
B: hugely underserved and in need of massive investment to unlock demand

Neither. The chord at. Yeovil would enable a useful through service to Bournemouth . The X53 bus was only useful for local coastal trips. It still runs but you have to change at Lyme for east Devon coast or stay on for Axminster and the trains.

 

[superalbs]

Why not just stick a 139 shuttle on Yeovil Junction to Yeovil Pen Mill? The bus service is a fuss.

 

[HowardGWR]

Why not just stick a 139 shuttle on Yeovil Junction to Yeovil Pen Mill? The bus service is a fuss.

May I suggest because for a customer from Exeter to Poole it would mean three changes?

 

[FenMan]

There was a Jurassic Coast bus link (X53) connecting Exeter with Lyme Regis and Weymouth, but I believe declining passenger numbers and withdrawal of subsidy led to its demise. I realise that a bus and train are not the same, but it could demonstrate that there is not the demand for a similar rail service.

These days through connectivity is provided by the X51 which runs 1p2h between Dorchester South and Axminster stations.
https://bustimes.org/services/x51-dorchester-bridport-axminster.

Using this route a typical Bournemouth - Exeter itinerary would be:

d. 11:24 Bournemouth
a. 12:04 Dorchester South
----
d. 12:10 Dorchester South
a. 13:54 Axminster Station
----
d. 14:03 Axminster
a. 14:37 Exeter Central

Journey time: 3h 13m.

So far as I can see, the current best journey time by rail for the same journey is 3h 05m, with changes at Southampton Central and Westbury. The off peak return is £55.30.

 

[The Ham]

The first thing that is needed is 2tph to Exeter, this would require more doubling West of Salisbury and either Crossrail 2 (provides a 3rd train through Andover) or electrification to Salisbury. The latter would mean that the Basingstoke Stoppers could extend to Salisbury and therefore the more minor stations could be skipped from the DMU services.

That would then mean that the line would attract more passengers, not only from along the line but also from lines that join it.

They will then mean that upgrades to the joining lines (like those from Weymouth) would be more likely to happen.

Given that journey times from Weymouth to Waterloo would be broadly comparable by going via Yeovil I think introducing such a service would also aid with passenger flows to the west (especially if the connection time wasn't too much, which it shouldn't be on s 2tph frequency). Such a service could be run using such that splits from trains running to Exeter, mean no new posts into London are required.

Given that the above are things that are either likely to happen (i.e. Crossrail 2) or are services heading to London (i.e. Weymouth to London via Yeovil) and so are more likely to happen, these first steps could be brought in without it appearing to be starting services through what is otherwise fairly low areas of population.

The next step could be, if it gets built, to extend the WofE services to Plymouth via Okehampton. That would mean only two changes to get from Poole to Plymouth, which is the same as it is currently. It would also mean only one change from Southampton and Portsmouth to Plymouth.

Even if that doesn't happen the increased use of the line between Weymouth and Yeovil would make the business case for chords better and therefore more likely. Which could further improve journeys.

I think that trying to get the chords from day one won't be overly successful, going for things that are likely to be needed otherwise (i.e Crossrail 2) and benefiting of the back of that (i.e. be services to London) would probably be more successful and gain most of the benefits faster than waiting for something that's of significantly lower priority.

 

[700007]

The first thing that is needed is 2tph to Exeter, this would require more doubling West of Salisbury and either Crossrail 2 (provides a 3rd train through Andover) or electrification to Salisbury. The latter would mean that the Basingstoke Stoppers could extend to Salisbury and therefore the more minor stations could be skipped from the DMU services.

That would then mean that the line would attract more passengers, not only from along the line but also from lines that join it.

They will then mean that upgrades to the joining lines (like those from Weymouth) would be more likely to happen.

Given that journey times from Weymouth to Waterloo would be broadly comparable by going via Yeovil I think introducing such a service would also aid with passenger flows to the west (especially if the connection time wasn't too much, which it shouldn't be on s 2tph frequency). Such a service could be run using such that splits from trains running to Exeter, mean no new posts into London are required.

Given that the above are things that are either likely to happen (i.e. Crossrail 2) or are services heading to London (i.e. Weymouth to London via Yeovil) and so are more likely to happen, these first steps could be brought in without it appearing to be starting services through what is otherwise fairly low areas of population.

The next step could be, if it gets built, to extend the WofE services to Plymouth via Okehampton. That would mean only two changes to get from Poole to Plymouth, which is the same as it is currently. It would also mean only one change from Southampton and Portsmouth to Plymouth.

Even if that doesn't happen the increased use of the line between Weymouth and Yeovil would make the business case for chords better and therefore more likely. Which could further improve journeys.

I think that trying to get the chords from day one won't be overly successful, going for things that are likely to be needed otherwise (i.e Crossrail 2) and benefiting of the back of that (i.e. be services to London) would probably be more successful and gain most of the benefits faster than waiting for something that's of significantly lower priority.

I have to say this is a well thought idea and I wouldn't mind seeing this happen. Only issue is to bear in mind that Crossrail 2 is a TfL managed rail system and would probably not go any further than Woking!

 

[The Ham]

I have to say this is a well thought idea and I wouldn't mind seeing this happen. Only issue is to bear in mind that Crossrail 2 is a TfL managed rail system and would probably not go any further than Woking!

Crossrail 2 will remove metro services from Waterloo, which then frees up paths for longer distance services. If I recall there would be about 8, so an extra path to each non metro place that has two paths at present (+2 for Portsmouth, +1 for Weymouth, +1 for WofE, etc.).

 

[30907]

Given that journey times from Weymouth to Waterloo would be broadly comparable by going via Yeovil
...

I lile the incremental approach, but with current stopping patterns and no stop at Tisbury loop Yeovil is about 2hr 10, thence to Weymouth with double reversal and a stop at Dorchester at least 1 hour, which is 30 minutes longer than the direct route. So you'd have to omit all stops bar Salisbury to match that.

 

[The Ham]

I lile the incremental approach, but with current stopping patterns and no stop at Tisbury loop Yeovil is about 2hr 10, thence to Weymouth with double reversal and a stop at Dorchester at least 1 hour, which is 30 minutes longer than the direct route. So you'd have to omit all stops bar Salisbury to match that.

Penn Mill to Waterloo (direct) which stops at all the stations West of Basingstoke, is 2:32. Omit all but Andover, Salisbury and the Yeovil stops (minus 7 stops at 2.5 minutes is about 18 minutes) and it would be about 2:14. The fastest journey from Penn Mill to Weymouth is 46 minutes, which gives a total of 3:00.

This total would probably be achieved by skipping a few stops from the Weymouth Yeovil leg to compensate for the extra reversal.

Although this is about 20 minutes slower than one of the two trains an hour to Weymouth it's only a few minutes slower than the other. On the current calling pattern, where there's a 45 minutes gap, so plenty of scope to fit in two slower services and a faster service and still not have one overtake the other.

 

[30907]

Penn Mill to Waterloo (direct) which stops at all the stations West of Basingstoke, is 2:32. Omit all but Andover, Salisbury and the Yeovil stops (minus 7 stops at 2.5 minutes is about 18 minutes) and it would be about 2:14. The fastest journey from Penn Mill to Weymouth is 46 minutes, which gives a total of 3:00.

That's what I was reckoning, give or take. But if you wanted to run a fast down the Salisbury route, you would send it to Exeter, and run the Weymouth with the standard stops to balance the loadings.

 

[The Ham]

That's what I was reckoning, give or take. But if you wanted to run a fast down the Salisbury route, you would send it to Exeter, and run the Weymouth with the standard stops to balance the loadings.

There could be a number of ways to our provide fast services on the Weymouth's, some options include:
- There's three services, only have one slow (remembering that this is after a third service is running on the WofE line)
- split a service at Andover or Salisbury and run fast to Weymouth and a stopping services with the other portion to Yeovil
- split a service (fast) to run to Weymouth and Exeter with each portion.

 

[Busaholic]

There was a Jurassic Coast bus link (X53) connecting Exeter with Lyme Regis and Weymouth, but I believe declining passenger numbers and withdrawal of subsidy led to its demise. I realise that a bus and train are not the same, but it could demonstrate that there is not the demand for a similar rail service.

Traffic congestion and EU regulations combined to make this less than viable - it went beyond Weymouth at one time too.

 

[paul1609]

Having travelled from the South Coast to Plymouth and vice versa by both rail and road for many years, I offer the following observations:
a) unless its the middle of the night most of the long distance traffic doesn't use the A35, if you are coming from Southampton or further East to Honiton or further West it will be quicker to go via the M3, A34 A303 and A30. If you are going beyond Exeter sometimes its quicker to cut up to the M5 at Taunton from Ilchester. From anywhere Brighton and East of you will use your main route up to London as far as the M25 and then down the M3. Many people especially from the North don't seem to realise the distances involved in travelling along the south coast. From my house in Kent above Romney marsh and on the Kent/East Sussex border its roughly the same distance to Exeter as to Paris or Stoke on Trent.
b) For Rail anyone Brighton Line or east of will travel via London/ Reading/ Clapham Junction. its painfully slow going along the coast and the number of changes means that the overall journey is unreliable. Most of the traffic is occasional leisure and with cheap advance tickets on Great Western there's little financial reason on going via the coast.

 

[700007]

Yes it's another one of my ideas but more sane this time I reckon.

A recurring theme that I've seen throughout this forum when it comes to connectivity and train services provided is how there's always been a need for better services along the South Coast itself, and also between the South Coast and major town/city centres with a lot of current services either deemed unsatisfactory, slow or too busy (the latter being the Severn & Solent service Portsmouth - Cardiff).

On the South Western franchise agreement, a 'rail optimisation plan' from the DfT suggested a new service be provided from Brighton to Exeter via Southampton and Salisbury which seems to be supported by a lot of people on here from what I've seen.

I also have a complimentary idea which is a Weymouth (linking the Jurassic Coast) to Exeter service via Yeovil, reversing at Yeovil Pen Mill. Even as a once or twice a day service each way, I reckon it could be successful. It provides a useful connection west of Weymouth and potentially a faster link as well (the current option being Bristol Temple Meads in about 140 minutes plus) and the link to Exeter being about 125 minutes from Weymouth.

Wondering what your thoughts are on this - is it useful or pointless?
If you support it, what would you like to see?

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes it's another one of my ideas but more sane this time I reckon.

A recurring theme that I've seen throughout this forum when it comes to connectivity and train services provided is how there's always been a need for better services along the South Coast itself, and also between the South Coast and major town/city centres with a lot of current services either deemed unsatisfactory, slow or too busy (the latter being the Severn & Solent service Portsmouth - Cardiff).

On the South Western franchise agreement, a 'rail optimisation plan' from the DfT suggested a new service be provided from Brighton to Exeter via Southampton and Salisbury which seems to be supported by a lot of people on here from what I've seen.

I also have a complimentary idea which is a Weymouth (linking the Jurassic Coast) to Exeter service via Yeovil, reversing at Yeovil Pen Mill. Even as a once or twice a day service each way, I reckon it could be successful. It provides a useful connection west of Weymouth and potentially a faster link as well (the current option being Bristol Temple Meads in about 140 minutes plus) and the link to Exeter being about 125 minutes from Weymouth.

Wondering what your thoughts are on this - is it useful or pointless?
If you support it, what would you like to see?

Wouldn't it be much quicker from to just change at Southampton central for Brighton (from Weymouth)?

I doubt there are many people wanting to go to Exeter from Brighton. With increased capacity on the Solent - Cardiff trains and a 1tp2h Stopper from London to Exeter via Westbury, it should be much easier

 

[swt_passenger]

Weymouth to Exeter isn’t just your idea. It has been discussed on these forums numerous times. No one ever proves there is a realistic demand.

 

[IainG81]

Is it not possible to put a link in where the lines cross at Yeovil? I don't think having trains reversing out of stations is something TOC's like very much.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it not possible to put a link in where the lines cross at Yeovil? I don't think having trains reversing out of stations is something TOC's like very much.

It’s possible to add a number of different links at Yeovil, indeed some are half built already. Another regularly discussed subject, it last came up only a few weeks ago, but academic if there is no realistic demand for such a service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is it not possible to put a link in where the lines cross at Yeovil? I don't think having trains reversing out of stations is something TOC's like very much.

Do you mean reversing away from stations (as in, not at a platform)? If so, that wouldn't be the case at Yeovil Pen Mill, it'd be reversing at the platform. If you just mean that reversals in general are disliked, there are plenty of such moves every day at a variety of locations, and from an operational perspective it's no different to when a train gets to its destination and then sets off back as a new service.

 

[700007]

This idea can be done with one reversal but obviously with the infrastructure limitations (i.e. single tracking) throughout the whole route especially when it gets a lot more trickier with the hourly WoE line + enhancements, it's difficult to find paths sometimes. Yes, it does require a reversal at Yeovil Pen Mill which is inconvenient for the crew and the extended journey time. However I would propose that dwell times aren't long.