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Connexions Buses (Harrogate Coach Travel)

YorkRailFan

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Jimmi

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Connexions seems to be taking over the 21/22 tendered services currently operated by Arriva.
Timetables are available on Bustimes:
21: https://bustimes.org/services/21-seacroft-halton-2
22: https://bustimes.org/services/22-seacroft-castleford

Looks like quite a bit of deadheading will be needed to get these buses between Seacroft and Tockwith, but that already applies to most Connexions services. Looks like Seacroft will get some Scanias though, as they are Connexions' speciality.
The timetable info on bustimes is showing the old times under Connexionsbuses for some reason, there's some changes to the timetables:

21 - The 1430 Seacroft to Colton will
extend to Halton on school days. The 1454 Halton to Seacroft journey will
additionally operate on school days.

22 - The 1500 Castleford to Rothwell and
1530 Seacroft to Castleford journeys will additionally operate on school days. The
0700 Castleford to Rothwell and 1815 Rothwell to Castleford journeys will be
withdrawn due to low usage.
 

YorkRailFan

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markymark2000

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Here's a link to the timetable published on Connexions's website:


Currently only on the "latest news" page and not under the "timetables" page.
Also interestingly they haven't updated Bus Open Data like they are legally meant to.

I'll never understand why Metro keep awarding tenders to operators who insist on not complying with the law. Connexions have been shoddy with BODS for a while, as were Yorkshire Buses, As were A&A. How much taxpayers money is going to keep going to law breaking operators.
 

Megafuss

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Also interestingly they haven't updated Bus Open Data like they are legally meant to.

I'll never understand why Metro keep awarding tenders to operators who insist on not complying with the law. Connexions have been shoddy with BODS for a while, as were Yorkshire Buses, As were A&A. How much taxpayers money is going to keep going to law breaking operators.
BODS data is for the Traffic Commissioner to deal with. Not a tendering authority.
 

markymark2000

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BODS data is for the Traffic Commissioner to deal with. Not a tendering authority.
Fobbing it off as a Traffic Commissioner issue is just the easy option. Nothing stops Metro putting it in their contracts that operators must be BODS compliant (they put in their contracts that vehicles be appropriately licenced, have a COIF and be PSVAR and that drivers must have appropriate licences etc). No company should be awarded any public money when they refuse to comply with the law. Especially when said operators have been failing to comply with the law for a good length of time. Connexions falls into that category, they shouldn't be getting awarded any public contracts while they continue to flout the law.
 

Megafuss

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Fobbing it off as a Traffic Commissioner issue is just the easy option. Nothing stops Metro putting it in their contracts that operators must be BODS compliant (they put in their contracts that vehicles be appropriately licenced, have a COIF and be PSVAR and that drivers must have appropriate licences etc). No company should be awarded any public money when they refuse to comply with the law. Especially when said operators have been failing to comply with the law for a good length of time. Connexions falls into that category, they shouldn't be getting awarded any public contracts while they continue to flout the law.
Then report them to the Traffic Commissioner. It's that simple
 

LucyP

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Connexions don't take over until 24/02/25. Who looks at a timetable so early? Their news page says that the timetable is not yet finalised. Given the timings of the services, they will be mainly used by old people, who would much prefer a paper timetable, which Connexions have said will be available.

BODS is just an online timetable, with all the limitations that entails, particularly cancellations. Buses cannot be relied upon from any operator these days. It is why people do not use buses. I have never been through Leeds Bus Station in the last few years without the word CANCELLED being shown on the information board, usually against a 36 service. You need to look at the live tracking and the WY Metro Next Bus apps to find out whether the bus that you want is runing and whether it is on time. Even that is no guarantee. You track the inbound service, but then it is cancelled at the bus station, so the outbound service that you were wanting to use, does not run.

You also need to look at the regulations. Connexions do not operate more than 40 services, so are classed as a small operator. They therefore do not have to host the data themselves, and can upload the file to BODS or use the BOD timetable tool to create the file to be uploaded. It is then hosted by the DfT.

The flaw in the system:

"For new registrations of local services, the process for publishing open data will be aligned with the process for applying to a traffic commissioner for registration of the new service. The date when the application for registration of a new service is made to a traffic commissioner (the 42-day period), is the last date by which the data should also be provided to BODS."

"Variations requiring an application to a traffic commissioner (that is, where there are alterations which trigger the need for formal registration of a variation) are required to be submitted to BODS by the time of the application going to the Transport Commissioner (TC) for final review (the 42-day period).

For changes that do not trigger the variation to the registration threshold, these can be made to the BODS file at any point prior to the change coming into operation. For example, if the timetable change were to come into effect today at noon, the operator would legally be able to update their open data file up until 11:59am."

How can you register a service with an accurate timetable 42 days in advance, for a contracted service, when you do not know what timetable the contracting authority are going to impose upon you?

Why is there a need to upload it 42 days in advance, yet in other circumstances, you can upload 1 minute before a service, to a system that only checks for updates, twice a day!

There is no such thing as a perfect world. In life, if you only deal with people who strictly comply with every regulation or law, then you would not be dealing with many people, organisations or countries!

The most important thing is that the bus runs.
 

markymark2000

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Connexions don't take over until 24/02/25. Who looks at a timetable so early? Their news page says that the timetable is not yet finalised. Given the timings of the services, they will be mainly used by old people, who would much prefer a paper timetable, which Connexions have said will be available.
Granted there have been some delays but as soon as Connexions have the information, it should have been on BODS. The demographics of passengers on a service do not exempt them from the law.

BODS is just an online timetable, with all the limitations that entails, particularly cancellations.
BODS is more than just timetables. It's timetables, tracking (granted nothing will track unless a service is operational) and fares. There is also disruption data which I believe the plan is to make cancellation data more available.

You also need to look at the regulations. Connexions do not operate more than 40 services, so are classed as a small operator. They therefore do not have to host the data themselves, and can upload the file to BODS or use the BOD timetable tool to create the file to be uploaded. It is then hosted by the DfT.
I've never said otherwise. However as it happens Ticketer host Connexions data for them and Connexions just provide a link from Ticketer which then refreshes the BODS dataset.

The most important thing is that the bus runs.
I don't know why we bother having any laws then for buses. As long as it runs at some point. That's alright.

(Not quoting the rest of your port as it will make my reply too long).
It wasn't just the 21/22. The X4 has only started sending AVL data to BODS on Monday, and that has been operating since June! Some data users have stopped using Connexions timetable data too due to inaccuracies so even now the 21/22 are online, there will likely still be issues. Which Connexions tend to ignore when issues are flagged with them.
 

Deerfold

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Connexions don't take over until 24/02/25. Who looks at a timetable so early? Their news page says that the timetable is not yet finalised. Given the timings of the services, they will be mainly used by old people, who would much prefer a paper timetable, which Connexions have said will be available.
Many people would like details of their bus service a week before it changes. Too many bus companies seem to assume that passengers can change plans or appointments at little to no notice.
 

theblackwatch

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Interesting news, Connexions will be quite prolific in Cross Gates from next week! I assume the services will be operated with Omnicity single deckers, it looks like it can be done with two vehicles if the planned timetable isn't changed.
 

John HG1

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The discussion about BODS is somewhat esoteric. IO, as someone who purports to take an interest in buses and their operations, didn't know what BODS was. Having just had a quick look and struggled to get anything useful from it, I can't see how the ordinary person in the street would a) know about it b) know how to use it and c) care anything about it. As this discussion occasionally reminds us, what people care about is whether they can find correct information and whether the bus runs roughly to time. This simple requirement applies to Connexions, Transdev or any operator anywhere.
 

Flange Squeal

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Many people would like details of their bus service a week before it changes. Too many bus companies seem to assume that passengers can change plans or appointments at little to no notice.
Quite! If I heard my local bus route was changing hands, one of the first things I’d think about is will the times (and fares) be changing. I’d think that would be a common thought among most regular users of a route, especially within a week of it happening?
 

markymark2000

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The discussion about BODS is somewhat esoteric. IO, as someone who purports to take an interest in buses and their operations, didn't know what BODS was. Having just had a quick look and struggled to get anything useful from it, I can't see how the ordinary person in the street would a) know about it b) know how to use it and c) care anything about it. As this discussion occasionally reminds us, what people care about is whether they can find correct information and whether the bus runs roughly to time. This simple requirement applies to Connexions, Transdev or any operator anywhere.
The raw data is probably of no use at all to an 'ordinary person off the streets', it's what companies do with that data which brings significant benefits for passengers. Ie you say about passengers caring if the bus runs to time, thanks to bus open data making vehicle tracking more open, people can see how on time their bus is on sites such as bustimes.org and a few other sites. Just 1 example but there are far more examples of bus open data benefitting passengers, they just don't know about it.
 

WibbleWobble

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Many people would like details of their bus service a week before it changes. Too many bus companies seem to assume that passengers can change plans or appointments at little to no notice.
It isn't always possible to supply timetable data if the tender isn't signed and sealed in time. It isn't unknown for local authorities to tinker with the timetable without a regard for deadlines because they need it a journey to run differently due to a flow they didn't account for in the original specification. Sometimes what is tendered is just the basic specification!

One authority I have had dealings with has tried to make changes with barely a few days' notice! Their rationale is "we'll just support a short notice variation".
 

Deerfold

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It isn't always possible to supply timetable data if the tender isn't signed and sealed in time. It isn't unknown for local authorities to tinker with the timetable without a regard for deadlines because they need it a journey to run differently due to a flow they didn't account for in the original specification. Sometimes what is tendered is just the basic specification!

One authority I have had dealings with has tried to make changes with barely a few days' notice! Their rationale is "we'll just support a short notice variation".
The timetables were available, though.
 

markymark2000

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Mod: Are you able to back this up with some evidence?
I'll do my best but it should be noted it's a lot of things I pick up, is because I look at operators open data nearly daily (and have been for about 4-5 years) and see all of the many inaccuracies. If you don't spend time looking at transport data, you may not notice any issues. Also it's made harder finding proof when Bus Open Data doesn't give a proper changelog each time an operator changes anything about their data.

The X4 hadn't been sending tracking data until Monday just gone. The basic source I can provide for this is bustimes. You'd have to check back through every date though to see nothing ever logged.
There has also been feedback raised to Connexions via BODS in September 2024 and 4th Feb 2025 about the lack of avl data for the X4 so it's not just a bustimes issue, it's an issue others are facing. This can be found by going to the Connexions operator profile on BODS (https://publish.bus-data.dft.gov.uk/org/30/dataset/data-activity/) then clicking and downloading the "Data issues reported on published data" report.


In terms of route data, if you want to sit and spend time analysing it, we can. A lot of it is stops missing or stops being on the wrong side of the road (which would mean people are getting incorrect journey planning information if any planners use Connexions data). I've posted 2 examples in the spoiler below. Some routes are too long to screenshot to show you all of the issues, but hopefully it's a small snippet to help and there's a guide at the bottom of the spoiler if you want to go and find issues on other routes.

Screenshot 1 is the X70 service on a normal Monday-Friday timetable. If there is a time shown in the 'Ticket machine code' area, the data is from Connexions open data, if there is no time in the 'ticket machine code' field, the data is from Traveline. First glaring issue is the 07:55 trip which Connexions have, is actually an 08:15 trip (which tracking confirms). Other than that, Harrogate Odeon stop is on the wrong side of the road (in this direction should be using the NE-bound stop). Missing Christ Church stop. Stop at Eleanor Road is on the wrong side of the road. Follifoot Oak House stop missing.

Screenshot 2 is again the X70 but on the Saturday service. Traveline data has issues here too so you have to manually check each actual data issue. On the 07:35, Plumpton Rocks missing (though it's an unmarked stop and so possibly Connexions don't know about it) and they do use Odeon stop not the second North Park Road stop (this is a Traveline issue), but the trips are missing Eleanor Road and Lancaster Park Road. The 09:00 trip is worse though. Look at all of those stop differences between Traveline and Connexions data. And yes, they are all stops missing in Connexions data for the Saturday timetable. They have the stops in place for the Mon-Fri timetable so how they have made such a mess of Saturdays I don't know.
1740046014850.png1740045956571.png

Both screenshots courtesy of timesbus.org and you can see the basic information for yourself here. To check the data source for each journey, add ?detailed=1 to the end of the URL and same as the screenshots, if there is a time in the 'ticket machine code' field, the data is Connexions data, if the 'ticket machine code' field is empty, it is Traveline data.
 

Cesarcollie

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I'll do my best but it should be noted it's a lot of things I pick up, is because I look at operators open data nearly daily (and have been for about 4-5 years) and see all of the many inaccuracies. If you don't spend time looking at transport data, you may not notice any issues. Also it's made harder finding proof when Bus Open Data doesn't give a proper changelog each time an operator changes anything about their data.

The X4 hadn't been sending tracking data until Monday just gone. The basic source I can provide for this is bustimes. You'd have to check back through every date though to see nothing ever logged.
There has also been feedback raised to Connexions via BODS in September 2024 and 4th Feb 2025 about the lack of avl data for the X4 so it's not just a bustimes issue, it's an issue others are facing. This can be found by going to the Connexions operator profile on BODS (https://publish.bus-data.dft.gov.uk/org/30/dataset/data-activity/) then clicking and downloading the "Data issues reported on published data" report.


In terms of route data, if you want to sit and spend time analysing it, we can. A lot of it is stops missing or stops being on the wrong side of the road (which would mean people are getting incorrect journey planning information if any planners use Connexions data). I've posted 2 examples in the spoiler below. Some routes are too long to screenshot to show you all of the issues, but hopefully it's a small snippet to help and there's a guide at the bottom of the spoiler if you want to go and find issues on other routes.

Screenshot 1 is the X70 service on a normal Monday-Friday timetable. If there is a time shown in the 'Ticket machine code' area, the data is from Connexions open data, if there is no time in the 'ticket machine code' field, the data is from Traveline. First glaring issue is the 07:55 trip which Connexions have, is actually an 08:15 trip (which tracking confirms). Other than that, Harrogate Odeon stop is on the wrong side of the road (in this direction should be using the NE-bound stop). Missing Christ Church stop. Stop at Eleanor Road is on the wrong side of the road. Follifoot Oak House stop missing.

Screenshot 2 is again the X70 but on the Saturday service. Traveline data has issues here too so you have to manually check each actual data issue. On the 07:35, Plumpton Rocks missing (though it's an unmarked stop and so possibly Connexions don't know about it) and they do use Odeon stop not the second North Park Road stop (this is a Traveline issue), but the trips are missing Eleanor Road and Lancaster Park Road. The 09:00 trip is worse though. Look at all of those stop differences between Traveline and Connexions data. And yes, they are all stops missing in Connexions data for the Saturday timetable. They have the stops in place for the Mon-Fri timetable so how they have made such a mess of Saturdays I don't know.
View attachment 174966View attachment 174965

Both screenshots courtesy of timesbus.org and you can see the basic information for yourself here. To check the data source for each journey, add ?detailed=1 to the end of the URL and same as the screenshots, if there is a time in the 'ticket machine code' field, the data is Connexions data, if the 'ticket machine code' field is empty, it is Traveline data.

I think you need to remember that:
1. Certain ETM suppliers still have issues with certain aspects of BODS and/or BODS has problems accepting bits of data sent by ETMs.
2. It is widely accepted the BODS system has numerous failings - it is being asked to do things it wasn’t originally designed for.
3. Most operators are doing their best but - especially for small operators- some of the issues you highlight are very easy mistakes to make when complex and quite detailed data input isn’t being done by a specialist but by a manager or admin person whose prime role is something completely different.
4. It is very easy to be critical from an armchair……
 
Last edited:

markymark2000

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I've spend 4-5 years working with BODS data and have assisted multiple operators become timetable compliant early on and assisted a few with AVL issues somewhat more recently. I'm well aware of some of the issues and know that these issues I've raised can be fixed. I'm not raising complex issues here.
 

Poiuytre

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I see that Connexions now have a 55 seater Scania coach available for private hire. I believe that this marks a return to general private hire work rather than simply deckers for hire on wedding or film work. Does anyone know if the coach operates on a regular school contract etc?
 

YorkRailFan

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SCH117X

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What is noticeable generally with them is the tracking typically stops when a bus is late.
They really need to address the X52 and X70 timetables which are pure fiction most evening peaks with delayed X52s, on an impossible to keep timetable with the traffic, resulting in vehicles interworking on the X70 being correspondingly late
 

YorkRailFan

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They really need to address the X52 and X70 timetables which are pure fiction most evening peaks with delayed X52s, on an impossible to keep timetable with the traffic, resulting in vehicles interworking on the X70 being correspondingly late
The timetable for the 412 is also unrealistic, just 35-40 minutes to get from Wetherby to York. Buses are always getting delayed when coming into York, and with little to no turn around time in York, are late when returning to Wetherby. Without the breaks in Wetherby, buses would never be able to make up time. The only 412 to consistently be on-time into York is the first one of the day, typically a Solo for the 16, which manages to miss most of the commuting traffic on a morning.
 

YorkRailFan

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Connexions have received two former ex-Hulleys vehicles:
DHN - ADL 200
BZT - Wright Solar

Also, the Citaro (XYF) appears to be back out for the first time in over a year!
 

SCH117X

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Connexions have received two former ex-Hulleys vehicles:
DHN - ADL 200
BZT - Wright Solar

Also, the Citaro (XYF) appears to be back out for the first time in over a year!
The Solar was on loan from them to Hulleys. They have gained three vehicles from Hulleys - that Enviro 200 and two Evoras - Y100HOB & BV23NVH. The former is reported as being repainted for the 13 in York .
 

Scotrail88

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What vehicle is being painted for the 13? Should really be getting an upgrade as must be oldest and worst vehicles used in York
 

SCH117X

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What vehicle is being painted for the 13? Should really be getting an upgrade as must be oldest and worst vehicles used in York
Meant the former referring to the Enviros so Y100HOB. You obviously have not seen the state of some of the vehciles they use on the X70 between Harrogate and Wetherby which look even worse given Transdev new Mercs on the same route
 

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