Consistently late train (00:04 Rainhill to Liverpool)

[Granpuff]

Currently sat in the cold at Rainhill awaiting the 00:04 to Liverpool.at present ETA 15 min late.i get this train roughly once every two weeks and in the last year it's arrived on time once. I realise it's the last one out of Piccadilly but surely it shouldn't be running this late on a consistent basis

 

[RUK]

I think it’s actually preferable for the last train of the day to be late rather than bang on time or a bit early, because it means that fewer people are likely to miss it.

 

[davetheguard]

Looking on On Time Trains, in the last seven days its been on time four times; 20 minutes late once; and cancelled twice.

Quite a mixed bag performance wise. Hope you didn't get too cold

 

[Aviator88]

Currently sat in the cold at Rainhill awaiting the 00:04 to Liverpool.at present ETA 15 min late.i get this train roughly once every two weeks and in the last year it's arrived on time once. I realise it's the last one out of Piccadilly but surely it shouldn't be running this late on a consistent basis

If it's a regular service for you, just use RTT to check what time it's due in based on running delay. Knock off 5/10 mins for a margin of safety and it might mean you can spend a bit longer in the warm before heading to the station.

 

[Merseysider]

Northern claim they will pay delay repay after 15 minutes. For an individual journey it might not add up to much but after 5-10 late journeys you’d see at least a tenner in your pocket.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

"Every morning my train is eleven minutes late. This is infuriating. This morning I took a later train. This also was eleven minutes late. This also was infuriating. Why don't you re-time all your trains to arrive eleven minutes late? - then they will all be on time.
Yours Faithfully,
Reginald I. Perrin"

 

[GPR]

I’m going to have a guess that it is Liverpool staff that bring it back to Lime St/ Allerton depot so they have to be positioned in Manchester for it to be on time.
If they’re late getting to Man Airport / Man Pic, wherever change of staff is, then the delay can happen.
Obviously other factors can come into it such as delays along the line.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Twenty-odd years ago someone from CrossCountry was complaining in Rail News that the Plymouth-Aberdeen arrived at its destination on average 31 minutes late. I wrote in (just like Reginald Perrin) suggesting that they simply retime the train to arrive 31 minutes later and so (hey-presto!) on average it would arrive on-time. My letter was published but no action was taken and the dismal performance continued. This of course was in the days before delay-repay acted as a financial incentive!

 

[Henffordd]

Also twenty-odd years ago, I was commuting between Coventry and Leicester. The 17:18 from Leicester (origin Lincoln) was almost invariably late - between 10 and 30 minutes. On one rare occasion it was on time, a passenger raised a complaint because they had missed it.

 

[185]

The delay on this seems to have been 4M87, a freight which came to a stand between Piccadilly and Oxford Road for 20 minutes. Not sure why it lost so much time, but it seems another freight was losing time between Cornbrook Junction and Trafford Park container terminal, perhaps the signaller was trying to hold 4M87 back so it didn't catch up with 4M46 which was rolling very slowly past the United ground.

 

[12LDA28C]

I think it’s actually preferable for the last train of the day to be late rather than bang on time or a bit early, because it means that fewer people are likely to miss it.

If any train runs 'a bit early' I would expect many people to miss it and rightly feel rather aggrieved at doing so, especially if it were the last train.

 

[Stephen42]

The delay on this seems to have been 4M87, a freight which came to a stand between Piccadilly and Oxford Road for 20 minutes. Not sure why it lost so much time, but it seems another freight was losing time between Cornbrook Junction and Trafford Park container terminal, perhaps the signaller was trying to hold 4M87 back so it didn't catch up with 4M46 which was rolling very slowly past the United ground.

4M87 was directly behind 1P95 Manchester Airport to York which lost 15 minutes between leaving Oxford Road and passing Deansgate. It's unclear why that TPE service was delayed, but if it was something requiring the signallers attention prioritising that over signalling 4M46 into the yard would have been the right choice. Looking at Real Time Trains it appears most of the freight trains were delayed by passenger services rather than the other way round, 4M46 being held early in its journey and losing time as a result.

 

[RUK]

If any train runs 'a bit early' I would expect many people to miss it and rightly feel rather aggrieved at doing so, especially if it were the last train.

Not the last train of the day, but I got this train from London Liverpool Street to Norwich a couple of days ago which left Liverpool Street half a minute early: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G17745/2024-01-05

As the first off-peak train leaving Liverpool Street for Norwich, it tends to be quite busy in my experience, but it seemed to be less so to me this Friday, when I walked right to the front of the train as usual - only 1 of the carriages was showing as full on the in-train display, whereas in my experience the train is usually pretty full of seated passengers, whether it’s an Inter-City unit, or substituted by a Stansted Express unit, as this train was. The trains I usually get nowadays are from Shoeburyness, London Fenchurch Street, Liverpool Street, or Norwich, and it doesn’t seem to be unusual to me for any of them to leave up to three quarters of a minute early, though I don’t usually chance getting the last train of the day (though I used to from London King’s Cross to Cambridge), though I would expect that to be less often the case with the last train of the day. Though those trains are usually either every 15 or every 30 minutes, so it’s not too long a wait until the next train.

 

[QueensCurve]

Currently sat in the cold at Rainhill awaiting the 00:04 to Liverpool.at present ETA 15 min late.i get this train roughly once every two weeks and in the last year it's arrived on time once. I realise it's the last one out of Piccadilly but surely it shouldn't be running this late on a consistent basis

It happens. 40 years ago the 07:25 Penzance to Glasgow/Aberdeen was 19 minutes late into Dundee every day, except the day it failed at Leuchers.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Pre-Thameslink upgrades and pre WFH being a thing I used to commute every morning from Durrington to London Bridge which was due in at something like 0823. I think it arrived on time about once a year. There was a somewhat 'eccentric' man who had the timetable committed to memory and when the ticket's were being checked he would ask why, for example, the train was 6 minutes late into Burgess Hill.

He took it to the Nth degree but he did have a bit of a point. If there were no reasons such as weather or points failure, etc. trains should be arriving on departing on time and if they aren't the timetable should be adjusted otherwise you get circumstances where you have a train not ariving on time for an entire year like this.

In fairness I recall Thameslink recalibrating trains after a while of running with the new upgrades.

 

[transportphoto]

Not the last train of the day, but I got this train from London Liverpool Street to Norwich a couple of days ago which left Liverpool Street half a minute early

This is not considered to be leaving early and would not be treated as such by the railway. Customers need to allow plenty of time to catch their intended train.

 

[The exile]

Pre-Thameslink upgrades and pre WFH being a thing I used to commute every morning from Durrington to London Bridge which was due in at something like 0823. I think it arrived on time about once a year. There was a somewhat 'eccentric' man who had the timetable committed to memory and when the ticket's were being checked he would ask why, for example, the train was 6 minutes late into Burgess Hill.

He took it to the Nth degree but he did have a bit of a point. If there were no reasons such as weather or points failure, etc. trains should be arriving on departing on time and if they aren't the timetable should be adjusted otherwise you get circumstances where you have a train not ariving on time for an entire year like this.

In fairness I recall Thameslink recalibrating trains after a while of running with the new upgrades.

The problem is of course that the delays can be for a large number of reasons and occur at an almost infinitely variable number of places. Just try timing your car journey to work down to the exact minute. Sounds easy until you say you can't pass any of seven or eight intermediate points earlier than a fixed time. Then add the rule that you must time those points assuming you don't exceed the SatNav timings by more than 10% (this is to allow for the commercial pressures for quick journeys) and see how you get on.

 

[JonathanH]

I think it’s actually preferable for the last train of the day to be late rather than bang on time or a bit early, because it means that fewer people are likely to miss it.

That depends on the arrangements passengers may have to connect with other late forms of transport.

 

[Granpuff]

Thanks for the replies,was just curious as to why this service seems to mostly run late. at my TOC the performance team would be looking into the reasons why,? I'm sure Northern must do though.

 

[12LDA28C]

This is not considered to be leaving early and would not be treated as such by the railway. Customers need to allow plenty of time to catch their intended train.

If I was on a train that left 30 seconds before the minute it was due to depart, I would certainly consider it to have left early. I would say that every train driver I know would say the same.

 

[Sussex Ben]

Pre-Thameslink upgrades and pre WFH being a thing I used to commute every morning from Durrington to London Bridge which was due in at something like 0823. I think it arrived on time about once a year.

It’s not much better now. I regularly use the 1733 London Bridge to Littlehampton service as far as Haywards Heath and I’d be struggling to find a single time it’s arrived on time. Unfortunately the Brighton Main Line timetable is still very tight, despite missing a number of services that ran pre-covid, so the only chance of getting home on time seems to be when the train in front is cancelled to allow us a clear run.

 

[SussexSeagull]

The problem is of course that the delays can be for a large number of reasons and occur at an almost infinitely variable number of places. Just try timing your car journey to work down to the exact minute. Sounds easy until you say you can't pass any of seven or eight intermediate points earlier than a fixed time. Then add the rule that you must time those points assuming you don't exceed the SatNav timings by more than 10% (this is to allow for the commercial pressures for quick journeys) and see how you get on.

I do get that on something as busy as the Brighton Main Line in it's morning peak there are 1,001 things that can go wrong and any (sane) person doesn't expect it to run to the minute, but if it is late to a destination 95% of the time then it is a sign the timetable needs reviewing to be more realistic.

 

[Shernan]

There used to be a 2200 lner train from KGX to Newcastle on Saturda (last train). It was a stopper, so it was very slow (around 1.5 hours time longer for the journey), but the fares were very cheap, so I was consistently on that service. That timetable of that service between stations usually spaces out for a long time, so the train usually has to wait on the platform for 10 to 15 minutes per station. For once, the service did not wait on the platform according to the schedule, and immediately depart after arriving at each station, resulting in the train leaving around 1 hour before the scheduled time. I wasn't affected and I was pretty happy because I arrived early, but I can imagine the faces of those people who missed the last train north.

 

[The exile]

There used to be a 2200 lner train from KGX to Newcastle on Saturda (last train). It was a stopper, so it was very slow (around 1.5 hours time longer for the journey), but the fares were very cheap, so I was consistently on that service. That timetable of that service between stations usually spaces out for a long time, so the train usually has to wait on the platform for 10 to 15 minutes per station. For once, the service did not wait on the platform according to the schedule, and immediately depart after arriving at each station, resulting in the train leaving around 1 hour before the scheduled time. I wasn't affected and I was pretty happy because I arrived early, but I can imagine the faces of those people who missed the last train north.

Almost certainly, the stops were advertised as “set down only”.

 

[nw1]

This is not considered to be leaving early and would not be treated as such by the railway. Customers need to allow plenty of time to catch their intended train.

Isn't it? So any train can legitimately leave up to half a minute early?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm sure Northern must do too.

I admire your optimism.

 

[nw1]

There used to be a 2200 lner train from KGX to Newcastle on Saturda (last train). It was a stopper, so it was very slow (around 1.5 hours time longer for the journey), but the fares were very cheap, so I was consistently on that service. That timetable of that service between stations usually spaces out for a long time, so the train usually has to wait on the platform for 10 to 15 minutes per station. For once, the service did not wait on the platform according to the schedule, and immediately depart after arriving at each station, resulting in the train leaving around 1 hour before the scheduled time. I wasn't affected and I was pretty happy because I arrived early, but I can imagine the faces of those people who missed the last train north.

Reminds me of when I did Kings Cross to Edinburgh in May 1993 on a Sunday. There were, AFAIK, no engineering works but a large amount of engineering work padding had been added into the timetable, so it was a very slow journey with several lengthy stops. So you didn't really get the proper "ECML experience" but luckily the return trip was a Mon-Fri and much more what you would expect.

 

[dangie]

Also twenty-odd years ago, I was commuting between Coventry and Leicester. The 17:18 from Leicester (origin Lincoln) was almost invariably late - between 10 and 30 minutes. On one rare occasion it was on time, a passenger raised a complaint because they had missed it.

No idea if this was it, but there was a story some years ago about a woman who submitted a claim for her taxi fare as the consistently late train had turned up on time so she missed it. It goes without saying she was unlucky with her claim.

 

[Amlag]

Take a look at ‘Recent Trains’ performance record website and for many months
the % of Express trains arriving in Paddington RT to 5 mins late has been abysmal.
Many such trains each week fail to arrive on time even once, mainly due to the ongoing high
number of almost daily infrastructure related problems principally between Reading and Paddington
and the ‘ironing board seat’ IETs inability to make up and even keep time often due running in service
with engines isolated due faults.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Going back to BR days, they once retimed my home bound train mid-timetable, later by 20 minutes, and it was always at least 15 minutes late every night, usually 20.
I wrote them a humorous letter moaning about both things, they wrote a humorous letter back and apologising. From then on, the train was never late again & even reverted to its original timetable in the actual timetable change.