Contactless declined

[AnonymousUser1]

I tried to use my contactless Mastercard on the 521 this morning and it was declined. I was using the Oyster reader inside the saloon so I could read the whole blurb about being asked to use another form of payment. I thought that was weird so I got off at the next stop and boarded the next 521. The same problem, so I used a Visa debit card instead.

I then used the Mastercard in a shop and it was declined for contactless but worked with the PIN. Then I used it in another shop where the contactless worked.

Should this happen? I thought contactless didn't use online authorisation.

you had used it contactless too many times without a PIN or online CVC+ verified transaction ...

doing the PIN authorisaed transaction in the shop reset the counter on contactless transactions .

If you solely want a care for contactless transport fare use then the Oyster o equivalent other local card is the product to use

 

[radamfi]

doing the PIN authorisaed transaction in the shop reset the counter on contactless transactions .

This is the case for normal transactions but shouldn't be necessary when using public transport where "Transit mode" applies.

 

[island]

If the card has triggered its threshold it will not work contactless in any setting until it has been used either C&P or in a cash machine.

Hence, having a card to use exclusively contactless will never work.

Well, it's happened to the OP, and it's happened I think to me.

This is correct for some issuers, or some cards issued by some issuers. It is an issuer choice how to program the chip to approve or decline transactions depending on the context, read method, transaction type, and other parameters of the transaction.

Particularly, it is an issuer option to decide whether a card which has exceeded its contactless usage counter will approve if presented to a reader which says it only supports contactless transactions and cannot perform a chip transaction. It is open to issuers to say that these transactions will always approve, approve to a certain (higher) limit, or always decline and require a chip & PIN transaction to be performed.

Blanket statements such as “a contactless card will always work for Transit mode transactions” are oversimplification.

(I work for an issuer.)

 

[radamfi]

Bizarrely, the offending card came from the same issuer who were advertising on the side of buses that you could get 5% cashback by using its debit card on London's transport. Although this time it was their credit card, as their debit card offer has expired for me.

If certain issuers can block the card on public transport simply because the card wants a PIN next time, then they need to publicise the fact, so that customers can avoid that card when using public transport. In my case it was a minor inconvenience as it was the first use of the day and I had another card, albeit one offering less cashback. But what if I was using it on a daily basis for the weekly cap?

 

[Be3G]

Hence, having a card to use exclusively contactless will never work.

Whilst taking on board island's comments above of course (he's proved himself many times over to be a source of reliable insight on these matters), I can tell you this: I have a First Direct debit card which I use solely for contactless TfL payments, and have never had a problem with it that's been caused by any kind of contactless transaction limit being reached.

 

[radamfi]

Whilst taking on board island's comments above of course (he's proved himself many times over to be a source of reliable insight on these matters), I can tell you this: I have a First Direct debit card which I use solely for contactless TfL payments, and have never had a problem with it that's been caused by any kind of contactless transaction limit being reached.

That's useful information. It might be useful to compile a list of contactless cards which work on public transport without being blocked when a PIN is needed.

I also have a First Direct debit card but I don't use it because it offers no cashback.

 

[MikeWh]

Particularly, it is an issuer option to decide whether a card which has exceeded its contactless usage counter will approve if presented to a reader which says it only supports contactless transactions and cannot perform a chip transaction. It is open to issuers to say that these transactions will always approve, approve to a certain (higher) limit, or always decline and require a chip & PIN transaction to be performed.

Blanket statements such as “a contactless card will always work for Transit mode transactions” are oversimplification.

(I work for an issuer.)

Well this goes against what I was told at TfL by the director responsible for the contactless project. It's also a serious drawback, especially if weekly capping is expected to activate.

Can you provide any further details, by PM if you prefer. I'd like to take it up with TfL.

 

[island]

I need to check what more I am entitled to say without getting myself into trouble.

 

[island]

Less clear after the discussion, sadly. When I asked my colleague was he sure the above was applicable to TfL transactions he said he didn’t understand there to be a difference between a terminal that only supports contactless as a read method (such as Reading Bus), a terminal that supports multiple read methods but no cardholder verification method (such as a new-fangled confectionery vending machine which can read by chip, contactless, or magstripe) and a terminal operating the contactless transit model. I’m pretty confident there is such a difference and he is seeking further clarification from the card scheme.

 

[simple simon]

I was once conned in the railway whereby I leant on a standalone reader at Kings X without even realising! Wallet in back pocket, beep, TFL mugged me of £5 or so.

Since then I'm 100% contactless-free ! They can keep the dam thing...

Ironically if you'd had two or more contactless cards in that wallet then you would have experienced 'card clash' and not been charged!

I get around the scenario you experienced with ease. I bought from eBay some RFID blocking sleeves which prevent contactless cards from being used - unless the cards are removed from the sleeve. I tested them with an Oystercard on a ticket machine (as I was not planning to travel at that time) and happily I verified that the sleeves work.


I have never used contactless to pay transport fares but am also astonished that simple card reads on transport access terminals which do not actually invoke a payment at that moment are causing such woes.

What if the OP's card had been accepted for the 521 bus fare but was then declined during a ticket inspection? These inspections only read card details which are then reconciled behind the scenes. But if the read is declined for the ticket inspector would he / she then accuse the passenger of presenting the wrong card? Or have I just unwittingly identified a new way for ticketless travel, specially on buses and at ungated stations?

Other scenarios that would also be unacceptable would be the inability to use a pink route validator during a journey or to 'touch out' at the end of a journey (so that a maximum fare is charged).

Happily Oyster cards are not likely to be phased out for a long time, as there will always be passengers who cannot have bank cards (under 18, bankrupt, short stay overseas visitors, etc). However I understand that at some stage within the next few years Oyster cards without a letter D in a blue box on their backs will stop working. This is because these cards use older less secure data transmission technologies which will be switched off at the card readers. However I would expect passengers to be able to swap their older Oystercards for new Oystercards, with their e-purse values and any stored season or discount tokens (eg: railcard) also being transferred. What I do not know is whether the swap will require the new cards to be purchased with the old cards having the deposit refunded.

As for weekly fares capping, its my view that in many cases passengers will be better off buying weekly seasons, if they are still available and cost the same amount. This way all complications (such as journey time limits and forgetting to touch in / out at stations with open gates) are avoided.

Simon

 

[simple simon]

Less clear after the discussion, sadly. When I asked my colleague was he sure the above was applicable to TfL transactions he said he didn’t understand there to be a difference between a terminal that only supports contactless as a read method (such as Reading Bus), a terminal that supports multiple read methods but no cardholder verification method (such as a new-fangled confectionery vending machine which can read by chip, contactless, or magstripe) and a terminal operating the contactless transit model. I’m pretty confident there is such a difference and he is seeking further clarification from the card scheme.

The difference is that a card reader terminal on a London bus will not charge the fare on a contactless card at the moment of travel. This is because the daily fares are reconciled at night and then charged as a single transaction to the bank account / credit card account at night.

However on some buses outside of London the actual fare is charged (the financial transaction takes place) when boarding the bus and paying the driver, so if a pin is needed then the passenger will need to pay another way, eg; using cash.

Simon

 

[AY1975]

So I guess this alone is a good enough reason to keep your Oyster card rather than ditching it and relying on a contactless bank card all the time (that is, if you only have one contactless payment card).

At least then you have your Oyster card as a back-up if your contactless card is declined (provided that you have enough credit on your Oyster!).

I suppose the other option to safeguard against that happening, is to opt for chip & pin instead of contactless payment every so often, say every ten times you use your card in a shop, even if contactless payment is available.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

However I would expect passengers to be able to swap their older Oystercards for new Oystercards, with their e-purse values and any stored season or discount tokens (eg: railcard) also being transferred. What I do not know is whether the swap will require the new cards to be purchased with the old cards having the deposit refunded.

This is already possible login to your oyster online account, and you have a older card there is a option to get it updated. I rang up to get a refund and asked about it and then send me a new oyster for free by post, then you can go online and either tranfer balance/products to the new oyster, or request a refund of balance&deposit of old oyster (which is what I did).

 

[radamfi]

It's happened again.

Using the same TSB MasterCard credit card.

A few minutes after using contactless to buy food, I got on the 521. This time I used the front door so tapped the card on the driver's Oyster reader. The message was "Payment failure. Card not usable" (or similar). So I used a different debit card.

Straight after getting off the bus, I went into Tesco Express and tried to pay by contactless with the offending credit card but I had to put the PIN in.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's happened again.

Using the same TSB MasterCard credit card.

A few minutes after using contactless to buy food, I got on the 521. This time I used the front door so tapped the card on the driver's Oyster reader. The message was "Payment failure. Card not usable" (or similar). So I used a different debit card.

Straight after getting off the bus, I went into Tesco Express and tried to pay by contactless with the offending credit card but I had to put the PIN in.

I wonder if there is a fault with your actual card, i.e. with the on-card chip, as it doesn't appear to be behaving as it should.

You could try asking TSB for a replacement card?

 

[MikeWh]

It's happened again.

Using the same TSB MasterCard credit card.

A few minutes after using contactless to buy food, I got on the 521. This time I used the front door so tapped the card on the driver's Oyster reader. The message was "Payment failure. Card not usable" (or similar). So I used a different debit card.

Straight after getting off the bus, I went into Tesco Express and tried to pay by contactless with the offending credit card but I had to put the PIN in.

I really would urge you to report this to the TfL/Oyster helpdesk. This is definitely not the way transit mode contactless payments should work. Please let us know what they say.

 

[radamfi]

I really would urge you to report this to the TfL/Oyster helpdesk. This is definitely not the way transit mode contactless payments should work. Please let us know what they say.

I phoned them up and they just looked to see whether it was "red" or "green" and it was "green", so ready for travel. I knew that anyway by looking at my online account. They suggested contacting the bank, but contacting the bank would probably be a waste of time as they probably won't know about "transit mode" and they will probably just suggest replacing the card.

 

[simple simon]

If this is happening to one person so is it also happening to other people? If 'yes'. I wonder 'how many' other people?

I can't imagine casually TfL sharing this information, but be pleased to be wrong.

Simon

 

[paddington]

YES, this has happened to me too.

Like radamfi, I used to use my TSB debit card contactlessly when it had the 5% cashback offer. The offer on my card ended a year ago, IIRC. Since then I've only used the card once every few months to withdraw cash.

The other day I was at Heathrow T3 and needed to go to T5. I don't normally even bring the TSB card out nowadays but I did have it that day, so decided that I would use the TSB card to make the journey, since it is free anyway. (I had not read the post from August where radamfi only hinted at the bank's name.)

It was declined at the barriers.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I phoned them up and they just looked to see whether it was "red" or "green" and it was "green", so ready for travel. I knew that anyway by looking at my online account. They suggested contacting the bank, but contacting the bank would probably be a waste of time as they probably won't know about "transit mode" and they will probably just suggest replacing the card.

That might be just what is needed to solve the problem! (i.e. if the card itself is faulty in some way, as I suggested in my earlier post)

 

[radamfi]

That might be just what is needed to solve the problem! (i.e. if the card itself is faulty in some way, as I suggested in my earlier post)

I no longer have faith that a replacement TSB card would work, especially after seeing paddington's post. Other than the year that I was taking advantage of the 5% TSB debit card deal, I have been using a Barclaycard Cashback card the whole time TfL contactless has been in operation and I will go back to that for London travel. I only recently switched to the TSB credit card because the Barclaycard cashback reduced to 0.5%.

 

[MikeWh]

YES, this has happened to me too.

Like radamfi, I used to use my TSB debit card contactlessly when it had the 5% cashback offer. The offer on my card ended a year ago, IIRC. Since then I've only used the card once every few months to withdraw cash.

The other day I was at Heathrow T3 and needed to go to T5. I don't normally even bring the TSB card out nowadays but I did have it that day, so decided that I would use the TSB card to make the journey, since it is free anyway. (I had not read the post from August where radamfi only hinted at the bank's name.)

It was declined at the barriers.

So you're saying that a card which had only been used in an ATM immediately prior to that day was then declined at the gateline. That will NOT be because of this issue. Either the card is faulty or your bank had turned off the contactless for some reason. I suggest contacting your bank.

 

[MikeWh]

I perhaps ought to also mention that in the early days I had issues at a few LU gates. The solution was to hold the card at a slight angle. What I now do is put my card on the reader but keep my index finger tip under one end. I've never had an issue anywhere since doing this.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I no longer have faith that a replacement TSB card would work, especially after seeing paddington's post. ...

I can't really see what you're basing that on - if you wanted to try and diagnose the problem, the first thing to do would be to get a replacement card (one possibility is that there was a faulty batch of TSB cards issued) - but if you're happy as things stand, so be it.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I perhaps ought to also mention that in the early days I had issues at a few LU gates. The solution was to hold the card at a slight angle. What I now do is put my card on the reader but keep my index finger tip under one end. I've never had an issue anywhere since doing this.

I always thought 'contactless' was a bit of a daft name for the technology, as most users do actually touch their card on the device and that's certainly the best approach. Like you I always slap the card firmly on the yellow reader when using London public transport.

 

[radamfi]

I can't really see what you're basing that on - if you wanted to try and diagnose the problem, the first thing to do would be to get a replacement card (one possibility is that there was a faulty batch of TSB cards issued) - but if you're happy as things stand, so be it.

But what if the new card doesn't work? Until now, I have been lucky as both times I have only needed one bus trip in the whole day. But what if I have to swap cards during the day, having used the TSB card first thing?

 

[MikeWh]

I've had a conversation with a helpful person on the helpdesk. There was a problem with some cards on some buses during September. This was a side-effect of the first attempt to roll out faster upload (of online orders) to buses. It only affected some buses and not any trains or trams. It should all be fixed as of the beginning of October.

 

[JadeFN]

I've had a conversation with a helpful person on the helpdesk. There was a problem with some cards on some buses during September. This was a side-effect of the first attempt to roll out faster upload (of online orders) to buses. It only affected some buses and not any trains or trams. It should all be fixed as of the beginning of October.

I’ve been having this problem for the past 48 hours. Have re-verified my CVC number twice on contactless account. Keep getting declined on a bus but fine on the tube? Makes no sense. Have reported to TFL. It’s highly irritating having to use two cards and losing the daily cap.