Controlled Emission Toilets on Mark 1 and Mark 2 Carriages

[ryan125hst]

A number of Mark 3 carriages have been fitted with Controlled Emission Toilets in recent years, namely CrossCountry, GWR and Scotrail's HST sets, and Greater Anglia's loco hauled sets during their final few years of service.

However, following new requirements by Network Rail, it seems charter operators will now have to fit CET equipment to their stock, so Mark 1 and Mark 2 carriages will have to be fitted as well. The location of the tank and connector to empty said tanks is visible on Mark 3's, but I can't say I've seen anything obvious on Mark 1's or 2's going by videos I've seen of recent charters.

The only thing I have seen so far is this article regarding the NYMR showing what appears to be a vacuum toilet and a connector for emptying: https://www.nymr.co.uk/news/nymr-on-track-with-retention-tank-project

How many toilets per set are typically fitted with CET? Are both coaches in a Mark 1 updated modernised for this?

 

[BigB]

A number of Mark 3 carriages have been fitted with Controlled Emission Toilets in recent years, namely CrossCountry, GWR and Scotrail's HST sets, and Greater Anglia's loco hauled sets during their final few years of service.

However, following new requirements by Network Rail, it seems charter operators will now have to fit CET equipment to their stock, so Mark 1 and Mark 2 carriages will have to be fitted as well. The location of the tank and connector to empty said tanks is visible on Mark 3's, but I can't say I've seen anything obvious on Mark 1's or 2's going by videos I've seen of recent charters.

The only thing I have seen so far is this article regarding the NYMR showing what appears to be a vacuum toilet and a connector for emptying: https://www.nymr.co.uk/news/nymr-on-track-with-retention-tank-project

How many toilets per set are typically fitted with CET? Are both coaches in a Mark 1 updated modernised for this?

The requirements are not new, and operators have had several years to comply, with the 31st of March this year being the deadline. SRPS have had these fitted to main line stock by WCRC starting in 2021 if memory serves correctly...
Most Mk1s now have a macerator system fitted that feeds into a tank placed between the two main frame supports, between the battery boxes. There are a couple of designs for these but essentially the same main elements, and drainage by suction either by a gulley sucker brought in by road or dedicated on site facilities.

The tanks are stainless so may not be as obvious as if they were painted black.

 

[Richard Scott]

A number of Mark 3 carriages have been fitted with Controlled Emission Toilets in recent years, namely CrossCountry, GWR and Scotrail's HST sets, and Greater Anglia's loco hauled sets during their final few years of service.

However, following new requirements by Network Rail, it seems charter operators will now have to fit CET equipment to their stock, so Mark 1 and Mark 2 carriages will have to be fitted as well. The location of the tank and connector to empty said tanks is visible on Mark 3's, but I can't say I've seen anything obvious on Mark 1's or 2's going by videos I've seen of recent charters.

The only thing I have seen so far is this article regarding the NYMR showing what appears to be a vacuum toilet and a connector for emptying: https://www.nymr.co.uk/news/nymr-on-track-with-retention-tank-project

How many toilets per set are typically fitted with CET? Are both coaches in a Mark 1 updated modernised for this?

Fairly sure some of the mk2s that used to be used on the Cumbrian Coast line were fitted. Assume those coaches are still extant?

 

[railfan99]

drainage by suction either by a gulley sucker brought in by road or dedicated on site facilities.

In my distant location we call these the 'honey truck'.

There are small versions suitable to be driven along platforms but more common are the larger ones for driving on public roads.

 

[43096]

Fairly sure some of the mk2s that used to be used on the Cumbrian Coast line were fitted. Assume those coaches are still extant?

As I understand it, several DRS Mark 2s were fitted with CET. Not sure about the Cumbrian Coast, but think the vehicles hired to ScotRail were so fitted. Network Rail have acquired six for use on test trains (5971, 5995, 6001, 6008, 6117, 6122) which I think are fitted and are to provide CET facilities on test trains, replacing the 98xx BUOs leased from ERS.

 

[zwk500]

See also this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mark-1-lchs-on-the-mainline.249094/ although that became largely about CDL.

 

[ryan125hst]

The requirements are not new, and operators have had several years to comply, with the 31st of March this year being the deadline. SRPS have had these fitted to main line stock by WCRC starting in 2021 if memory serves correctly...
Most Mk1s now have a macerator system fitted that feeds into a tank placed between the two main frame supports, between the battery boxes. There are a couple of designs for these but essentially the same main elements, and drainage by suction either by a gulley sucker brought in by road or dedicated on site facilities.

The tanks are stainless so may not be as obvious as if they were painted black.

Thanks BigB, I didn't realise they have a macerator system instead of the more common vacuum toilet system. I guess they're also reliant on power - have upgrades been required to the electrical systems at all?

 

[BigB]

Thanks BigB, I didn't realise they have a macerator system instead of the more common vacuum toilet system. I guess they're also reliant on power - have upgrades been required to the electrical systems at all?

The macerator system is a standard Marine type setup, and apart from new wiring, the electrical side remains standard. The only current draw is when either the macerator or fill pump runs (both on a timer when the button(s) are pressed). Main line running easily keeps batteries charged enough even to cope with a currry train...
They are not perfect systems but usually reliable, mainly impacted by non-P items (i.e. not pee, poo or (toilet) paper). A good aquavac is a necessity.....
Maintenance wise there are few moving parts (pump, solenoid valve and macerator) which are all off the shelf, but very susceptible to frost if not drained correctly.

They are not as reliable as the old straight flush toilets, but do prevent the ubiquitous "bangers and mash" which is not what track workers or the public really want to see, so the additional work is the price we need to pay to operate on the main line.

It really is a dirty job, and someone has to do it!

 

[alxndr]

Is the number of coaches involved really great enough to make it worthwhile retrofitting them and setting up the necessary disposal and maintenance equipment?

(Speaking as someone who has scrubbed many points covered with the stuff unfitted toilets leave behind)

 

[30907]

Is the number of coaches involved really great enough to make it worthwhile retrofitting them and setting up the necessary disposal and maintenance equipment?

(Speaking as someone who has scrubbed many points covered with the stuff unfitted toilets leave behind)

For mainline use, undoubtedly - part of the rationale is that at 60mph the stuff disperses rather than drops, which is very unpleasant for pw staff who may be the recipients. For use at 25mph perhaps less so, but then I don't work in Carriage and Wagon cleaning the undersides of coaches. If stations have toilets then you don't need a full flush set of onboard loos.

 

[alxndr]

For mainline use, undoubtedly - part of the rationale is that at 60mph the stuff disperses rather than drops, which is very unpleasant for pw staff who may be the recipients. For use at 25mph perhaps less so, but then I don't work in Carriage and Wagon cleaning the undersides of coaches. If stations have toilets then you don't need a full flush set of onboard loos.

Perhaps I'm just particularly unbothered by it. I never felt it that much of an issue at any speed. Unpleasant yes, but no worse than any of the other unpleasant things out trackside.

 

[edwin_m]

There's also exposure of passengers and station staff as a train passes through, and of the general public at level crossings.

 

[BigB]

This is of course a Network Rail requirement, so for mainline use it's not a matter of choice...

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's also exposure of passengers and station staff as a train passes through, and of the general public at level crossings.

And it being splattered all over doorhandles etc.

In the end it's perhaps more remarkable that just dumping human waste was acceptable for so long. Proper sewerage has been a thing for well over a hundred years.