Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[Krokodil]

2tph Eurostars, plus 7tph Southeastern in the busiest hours.

So how many seats is that per hour? And how many seats on LGV Sud-Est per hour?

 

[Bald Rick]

So how many seats is that per hour? And how many seats on LGV Sud-Est per hour?

Fewer seats than LGV-SE (Paris - Macon). But more than almost all other High Speed Lines in Europe.

That’s my guess, i don’t have the numbers.

 

[Gigabit]

The point is that in general people don't wake up on a Monday morning and think 'ooh, I fancy a trip to Paris on Thursday'. They book ahead because they are planning a holiday, weekend away or whatever.

I think this is absolute nonsense.

People book in advance because it's cheaper. If people could turn up and pay £10 to travel nobody would book in advance.

 

[RT4038]

I think this is absolute nonsense.

People book in advance because it's cheaper. If people could turn up and pay £10 to travel nobody would book in advance.

They also book early to reserve their seat, which with a £10 ticket cost will surely be necessary to avoid having to ride on the roof?

 

[Krokodil]

Fewer seats than LGV-SE (Paris - Macon). But more than almost all other High Speed Lines in Europe.

That’s my guess, i don’t have the numbers.

I'd definitely argue that the line is underutilised. If it wasn't for the issue of border control we'd be seeing far more International departures from St Pancras (not to mention stops in Kent and northern France) even if that was at the expense of a Southeastern path or two.

I can't find information about SE's formations. It doesn‘t come up on departure boards, let alone RTT. How many of their trains run as double sets and how many run as singles? Do they tend to carry lots of fresh air about in the middle of the day, or is the seat occupancy quite good throughout?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd definitely argue that the line is underutilised. If it wasn't for the issue of border control we'd be seeing far more International departures from St Pancras (not to mention stops in Kent and northern France) even if that was at the expense of a Southeastern path or two.

I can't find information about SE's formations. It doesn‘t come up on departure boards, let alone RTT. How many of their trains run as double sets and how many run as singles? Do they tend to carry lots of fresh air about in the middle of the day, or is the seat occupancy quite good throughout?

Generally double sets in the peak, and single sets off peak, with some exceptions in both cases. Peak services are generally full with standing in the peak direction - and fairly well loaded in the contra peak direction, especially in the pm. I cant speak for off peak as I rarely use it then.

Agree that without border control we would have probably twice as many international services, including from the regions. But sadly we do have border control, so we are where we are.

 

[Bikeman78]

They also book early to reserve their seat, which with a £10 ticket cost will surely be necessary to avoid having to ride on the roof?

A few TOCs do advances without seat reservations. TfW, Northern and Greater Anglia spring to mind. On GWR, I rarely struggle to find a seat.

 

[Sonic1234]

A few TOCs do advances without seat reservations

Pretty much all of the NSE TOCs do - GTR, SE, SWR (even on the route to Exeter)

 

[LUYMun]

Passengers are not customers. To me, the term "customer" has become a meaningless, corporate word for anyone who purchases a product or uses a service, to the point it could be used in any industry and barely changes its meaning, i.e. the business world's "woke". Passengers are people who travel by train, and applying "customer" to them brands their existence as nothing more than figures on an annual stat.

"Our customers have responded to our feedback...", "We made changes to suit our customers' needs", "Customers for Hastings should board the front 4 coaches...".

It's on the levels of the "train station" vs "rail station" debate, but it's one that bugs me when reading rail-oriented news articles or official documents.

 

[The exile]

Passengers are not customers. To me, the term "customer" has become a meaningless, corporate word for anyone who purchases a product or uses a service, to the point it could be used in any industry and barely changes its meaning, i.e. the business world's "woke". Passengers are people who travel by train, and applying "customer" to them brands their existence as nothing more than figures on an annual stat.

"Our customers have responded to our feedback...", "We made changes to suit our customers' needs", "Customers for Hastings should board the front 4 coaches...".

It's on the levels of the "train station" vs "rail station" debate, but it's one that bugs me when reading rail-oriented news articles or official documents.

There is an essential difference. If I go to the ticket office and buy a ticket for travel tomorrow, I am already a customer but not a passenger. If I board a train at an unstaffed station without a ticket, I am a passenger but not a customer until I am sold one. Hence - the good old standard “Passengers may not cross the line except by means of the footbridge” is “wrong” as it also applies to holders of platform tickets, people seeing off Auntie Muriel and trainspotting little boys in raincoats!

 

[signed]

Loco-Hauled sets are the best rolling stock

• Unrivaled flexibility (You could just change a loco in a few minutes or detach/reattach a coach)
• Unrivaled passenger confort (you don't have the whole equipment and traction motors under your feet so noise is minimal and space can be much better used)
• Usually a lot more likeable by fans
• Apart from China nobody wants a sleeper EMU

 

[HSTEd]

• Apart from China nobody wants a sleeper EMU

There are sleeper MU services in Japan, although to be fair not many people want sleeper trains full stop these days!

 

[12LDA28C]

It's on the levels of the "train station" vs "rail station" debate, but it's one that bugs me when reading rail-oriented news articles or official documents.

What bugs me is people in the UK using Americanisms such as 'oriented' when what they actually mean is 'orientated'

 

[Bletchleyite]

Loco-Hauled sets are the best rolling stock

• Unrivaled flexibility (You could just change a loco in a few minutes or detach/reattach a coach)
• Unrivaled passenger confort (you don't have the whole equipment and traction motors under your feet so noise is minimal and space can be much better used)
• Usually a lot more likeable by fans
• Apart from China nobody wants a sleeper EMU

EMUs are the best rolling stock - the Southern realised that years ago. More flexible because traincrew can shunt, can be made in most lengths (and if you have 3s and 4s you can make up most lengths, the only ones you can't are 1, 2 and 5-car), quiet because electric motors are quiet, reliable because each unit can be powered on a self contained basis.

DMUs are a problem, but the best fix for that is as much electrification as possible.

For the Cally, fixed formation sleeper bi-mode MUs would have worked better than the present faff, even if it meant a slight shortening of the formations (though you could have done things like running them into two platforms at Euston given how easy splitting/joining MUs is).

 

[signed]

although to be fair not many people want sleeper trains full stop these days!

Which is a bummer, when, when executed correctly (like the NightJet) it is usually the easiest and pain-free experience

There are sleeper MU services in Japan,

Haven't Japan given up on sleeper

 

[HSTEd]

Haven't Japan given up on sleeper

Not quite, the Sunrise Express (Izumo and Seto) services are the last hold outs however.

 

[LUYMun]

What bugs me is people in the UK using Americanisms such as 'oriented' when what they actually mean is 'orientated'

Some Americanisms are better than others, now let’s jump on the bandwagon

 

[eldomtom2]

There are sleeper MU services in Japan, although to be fair not many people want sleeper trains full stop these days!

Well, that's Japan being Japan - there are no non-heritage loco-hauled passenger trains anywhere in Japan.

DMUs are a problem, but the best fix for that is as much electrification as possible.

Japan's luxury sleeper cruise train Twilight Express Mizukaze uses DMUs - the motors are placed on the non-sleeping carriages.

 

[dh57]

The TOCs and their staff come across with the view that their job is to move trains and it is not their job to move people. If people happen to be on board that is their choice.

This is why some rail staff don't have the best customer service skills. They don't see customer service as their job.

 

[signed]

For the Cally, fixed formation sleeper bi-mode MUs would have worked better than the present faff, even if it meant a slight shortening of the formations (though you could have done things like running them into two platforms at Euston given how easy splitting/joining MUs is).

Fair, but you basically rescind any flexibility in the facilities

Some routes may need to be more sleeper-heavy, others berth-heavy... Sleeper EMUs really don't sound that enticing with even the ÖBB getting new locos and cars from Siemens

 

[eldomtom2]

Fair, but you basically rescind any flexibility in the facilities

Some routes may need to be more sleeper-heavy, others berth-heavy... Sleeper EMUs really don't sound that enticing with even the ÖBB getting new locos and cars from Siemens

Considering that there are a grand total of three sleeper routes in the UK, none of which have changed their routing in decades, flexibility does not really seem to be necessary.

 

[Krokodil]

Fair, but you basically rescind any flexibility in the facilities

Some routes may need to be more sleeper-heavy, others berth-heavy... Sleeper EMUs really don't sound that enticing with even the ÖBB getting new locos and cars from Siemens

ÖBB's new Nightjet sets are intended to be fixed-formation, are they not?

 

[HSTEd]

EMUs are the best rolling stock - the Southern realised that years ago. More flexible because traincrew can shunt, can be made in most lengths (and if you have 3s and 4s you can make up most lengths, the only ones you can't are 1, 2 and 5-car), quiet because electric motors are quiet, reliable because each unit can be powered on a self contained basis.

To the point that the Southern Region later rebuilt its loco hauled stock into unpowered quasi multiple units (4TC), complete with cabs and unit-level shared compressors and motor generators.

 

[The exile]

To the point that the Southern Region later rebuilt its loco hauled stock into unpowered quasi multiple units (4TC), complete with cabs and unit-level shared compressors and motor generators.

Some of its loco hauled stock…

 

[Transilien]

I think that the London Commuter belt is too roughly defined so often 'commuter style' trains like the class 700s go the same distance as London-Birmingham despite a lack of comfort. I also think that the line should be drawn between 50km and 70km out of London between 'outer suburban' and 'regional' services and that within this boundary it should be run as a London Overground style network.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think that the London Commuter belt is too roughly defined so often 'commuter style' trains like the class 700s go the same distance as London-Birmingham despite a lack of comfort. I also think that the line should be drawn between 50km and 70km out of London between 'outer suburban' and 'regional' services and that within this boundary it should be run as a London Overground style network.

Issue is that it would require separation of services from the national rail network, with the added expense of separate staff, rolling stock, tracks etc.

The existing Overground generally works, because the routes are generally peripheral or separate to the main railway corridors out of London.

I agree that some routes should be transferred to the Overground on a case by case basis, though (something like the c2c network might not be a bad idea - because you could repaint the existing stock, cut down on admin costs by merging the franchise, and the publicity of being part of a recognisable TfL brand will help drive growth).

For some of the longer routes crossing the Greater London boundary significantly, you could use a new TfL Rail brand to differentiate from the Overground, but still save money from centralised customer service, recruitment etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sleeper EMUs really don't sound that enticing with even the ÖBB getting new locos and cars from Siemens

OeBB still favour LHCS generally, e.g. the Railjets, so are somewhat biased

 

[Krokodil]

OeBB still favour LHCS generally, e.g. the Railjets, so are somewhat biased

And of course the Railjet sets are fixed formation again, so not exactly as flexible as traditional coaching stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And of course the Railjet sets are fixed formation again, so not exactly as flexible as traditional coaching stock.

Nor as EMUs, because you can't just bang them together, you need someone to faff with the screw coupler, cables and brake pipes.

 

[43096]

Which is a bummer, when, when executed correctly (like the NightJet) it is usually the easiest and pain-free experience

NightJet executed correctly? The Paris/Brussels started over 2hrs late last night and with defective toilets despite being sat on ÖBB’s biggest maintenance depot for 36 hours. That is just unacceptable.