Could a second Channel Tunnel be built to increase capacity?

[zwk500]

The fact that the UK allows citizens of EU member states to use our e-gates at ports of entry, whereas the EU doesn't reciprocate for UK citizens says more about the attitude of the EU and illustrates who is largely responsible for increased queues at places like St Pancras.

You still seem to be suggesting that the EU owes the UK some special consideration.

The EU is a complex mix of 27 different member's priorities, fears, domestic issues and interrelations. Queues at one station mean very little to them, especially when the trains are still running full other than for a brief period in the morning.

 

[duncanp]

What would be a more appropriate question is why on earth the EU would care about queues at St Pancras.

It is in the interests of the EU to encourage inbound tourism because it benefits their economy, and UK visitors spend significant amounts of money in countries such as France and Spain.

The suggestions I made earlier would make things easier for visitors, whilst still enabling the Schengen area member states to have effective control over their borders.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2023 ==

You still seem to be suggesting that the EU owes the UK some special consideration.

The EU is a complex mix of 27 different member's priorities, fears, domestic issues and interrelations. Queues at one station mean very little to them, especially when the trains are still running full other than for a brief period in the morning.

Nothing I wrote suggests that the EU owes the UK some special consideration.

It is more that they should treat UK citizens in the same way as we treat citizens of EU member states.

 

[zwk500]

It is in the interests of the EU to encourage inbound tourism because it benefits their economy, and UK visitors spend significant amounts of money in countries such as France and Spain.

The suggestions I made earlier would make things easier for visitors, whilst still enabling the Schengen area member states to have effective control over their borders.

The issue of passport validity is a very minor one in the scheme of things, although it's helpful for Tabloids to get a cheap scoop from somebody who couldn't go on holiday because they hadn't checked their passport.

Nothing I wrote suggests that the EU owes the UK some special consideration.

The EU is treating the UK the same way they treat everybody else. You are suggesting they do something different for us. That's special consideration.

It is more that they should treat UK citizens in the same way as we treat citizens of EU member states.

The EU has no requirement nor particular interest in reciprocating arrangements where it does not need to, especially when such reciprocation could be a quite useful little nugget in future negotiations.

 

[duncanp]

The EU is treating the UK the same way they treat everybody else. You are suggesting they do something different for us. That's special consideration.

The EU has no requirement nor particular interest in reciprocating arrangements where it does not need to, especially when such reciprocation could be a quite useful little nugget in future negotiations.

I was actually suggesting that they change the way they treat everyone else, rather than they change the way they treat just the UK.

 

[Peterthegreat]

A couple of things here.
1) it has been suggested that Johnson wanted to have the UK treated as a "third" country regarding length of stay in Europe (ie the 90/180 rule). This implies the EU may have been open to a less restrictive regime.
2) visitors from the EU, US and several other countries can stay for up to 6 months in the UK without restriction (except no work allowed)
3) the e-gates at St Pancras do allow UK passport holders to use them. A French official then stamps the passport (without the need to check it).

 

[adamedwards]

Is the space solution at St Pancras solved by adding a departure deck above the Eurostar plaforms? Clearly careful design will be needed given the Grade 1 status of the main building, so it will need to be Champagne Bar type chic. This new deck would be the first class lounge with lifts and moving walkways down to the centre of each train where the 1st class cars are. That then frees up space in the undercroft for more ordinary folk and would then enable more people per train and the use of double deck stock.

The current Eurostar policy of running fewer trains for higher yields has a parallel with the Paris to Bordeaux service where the charges for the new line from Tours to Bordeaux incentivise SNCF to run as few trains as possible. I think a new UK government will need to have a firm conversation with the owners of HS1 about anti-competitive trading.

 

[Magdalia]

Is the space solution at St Pancras solved by adding a departure deck above the Eurostar plaforms?

Absolutely not! That would ruin the view of the trainshed from platform level.

But I'd agree that St Pancras is the constraint for running more Eurostar trains, not paths through the tunnel.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Absolutely not! That would ruin the view of the trainshed from platform level.

But I'd agree that St Pancras is the constraint for running more Eurostar trains, not paths through the tunnel.

I was going to start a thread about how to increase capacity at St Pancras for more trains/passangers.

I wonder what could be done? Assuming the ship has sailed to break out the diggers at Warwick Gardens [!], I reckon that the best thing is, if St. Pancras really does get it's handling/platform capacity saturated, would simply be to open Stratford International to spread some load. How much load it will spread is debatable of course.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was going to start a thread about how to increase capacity at St Pancras for more trains/passangers.

Work is planned. Watch this space.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Work is planned. Watch this space.

Let me guess, reopen Waterloo International?

 

[SynthD]

Let me guess, reopen Waterloo International?

They did that a few years ago for SWR, and have recently opened the undercroft for retail space. The new trains can’t go there anyway.

I’ll risk a surely. Surely it’s reconfiguring the arrivals space following the final service that used it last week?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

They did that a few years ago for SWR, and have recently opened the undercroft for retail space. The new trains can’t go there anyway.

I’ll risk a surely. Surely it’s reconfiguring the arrivals space following the final service that used it last week?

Was joking haha, Waterloo is long gone. I would imagine ripping out some of the shops is part of it. I can't see Stratford attracting many passengers if it was opened for Eurostar, but I could be wrong.

 

[zwk500]

A couple of things here.
1) it has been suggested that Johnson wanted to have the UK treated as a "third" country regarding length of stay in Europe (ie the 90/180 rule). This implies the EU may have been open to a less restrictive regime.

What that odious embarrassment said or wanted is no indication of how the EU may have felt about such things. The man only deals in lies.

Is the space solution at St Pancras solved by adding a departure deck above the Eurostar plaforms? Clearly careful design will be needed given the Grade 1 status of the main building, so it will need to be Champagne Bar type chic. This new deck would be the first class lounge with lifts and moving walkways down to the centre of each train where the 1st class cars are. That then frees up space in the undercroft for more ordinary folk and would then enable more people per train and the use of double deck stock.

You might be able to build a Premier lounge to the side, but not anything on top.

I think a new UK government will need to have a firm conversation with the owners of HS1 about anti-competitive trading.

Until Cameron and Osborne, the owners of HS1 were... the UK government. We've since sold our stake to a Canadian Pension fund, who will find any conversation about anti-competitive trading rather short, as they will point to the fact that they charge everybody the same amount. The Channel tunnel is a bigger obstacle because of the stock clearance process.

would simply be to open Stratford International to spread some load. How much load it will spread is debatable of course.

I can't see Stratford attracting many passengers if it was opened for Eurostar, but I could be wrong.

Stratford won't be opening for Eurostar. The station was never fitted out for international departures, and operationally it's painful as reversing there requires wrong-road running while calling on the way into St Pancras dramatically extends the journey time. If Ebbsfleet isn't worth de-mothballing there's not a cat in hell's chance of Stratford being worth fitting out in full.

 

[Bald Rick]

Let me guess, reopen Waterloo International?

No!

Work at St Pancras (in the border Control bit)

 

[zwk500]

No!

Work at St Pancras (in the border Control bit)

Presumably it's not much more than tweaking layouts?

 

[London Trains]

I was going to start a thread about how to increase capacity at St Pancras for more trains/passangers.

What if part of the station was moved to the west of the existing station, with the Francis Crick Institute and the houses between Pancras Road/Midland Road and Purchese Street demolished? It would be much simpler than trying to make changes to the current Grade 1 listed building, although would probably be quite a bit more expensive.

 

[mike57]

I don't think the politicians in Brussels have any interest or stake in the smooth flow of people to and from the UK (or any other non EU country). Unfortunately I think this situation has persisted for some time, well before even June 2016. Without reopening the debate which led to the 2016 referendum, the problem is all the Brussels bureaucrats seemed to be able to offer was more central control from Brussels and failure to read and take account of the serious concerns which led to the leave vote.

Given that this situation is unlikely to change anytime soon I think its reasonable to say that the current entry and exit controls are likely to remain for the foreseeable future. The UK government needs to ensure that the infrastructure and arrangements are adequate to allow a free flow of people, because we want EU tourists to visit the UK, and we wish to visit EU countries.

There is no doubt that facilities at St Pancras are pretty well at capacity, so a sensible government (I can hope...) would already be taking steps to expand or improve the situation, and I am not meaning pick around the edges, or hope that EU requirements will change, I am talking meaningfull and long term expansion. Passenger numbers will increase, and longer term pressure to reduce flying will just add to that increase. I do think this is a government issue, Eurostar may have to pick up the running costs and pass that on through fares, but the provision and capacity has to be more of a national 'what do we need, and what do we want' decision. However neither of the two main parties seem capable of moving beyond the 'They said left so we will say right' mentality so I dont hold out any hope.

Obviously a lot has gone on in the King Cross/St Pancras area since the dark days of the early 80s but I think not allowing some expansion space for rail use in the future has put us in the situation where what should be a simple expansion turns into a major problem.

Until this capacity issue is addressed any other improvement to continental services are not needed

 

[JonathanH]

What if part of the station was moved to the west of the existing station, with the Francis Crick Institute and the houses between Pancras Road/Midland Road and Purchese Street demolished?

...and St Pancras Old Church?

Demolishing the Francis Crick institute or indeed anything else in the area is very unlikely.

 

[popeter45]

What if part of the station was moved to the west of the existing station, with the Francis Crick Institute and the houses between Pancras Road/Midland Road and Purchese Street demolished? It would be much simpler than trying to make changes to the current Grade 1 listed building, although would probably be quite a bit more expensive.

tracks are not the issue, never seen all 6 occupied at once and even so serviceing at temple mills or elsewhere to only bring them in when time to board would solve that
issue is check in space that can be solved in a way more space efficent way, be that westward to replace the arcade, eastward towards kings cross or even above/below, its about where to hold enough people for 2 hours of departures at a time

 

[Bald Rick]

What if part of the station was moved to the west of the existing station, with the Francis Crick Institute and the houses between Pancras Road/Midland Road and Purchese Street demolished? It would be much simpler than trying to make changes to the current Grade 1 listed building, although would probably be quite a bit more expensive.

you’d need more space than that. The intentional platforms are 400m long remember. So in your scheme, you either have to take the FCI and various homes and St Pancras church…. And then either the British Library, or a whole load more residential, commercial and public service property to the north. And a load of new flyovers. The land alone is going to be in the region of £5bn.

 

[Wolfie]

What if part of the station was moved to the west of the existing station, with the Francis Crick Institute and the houses between Pancras Road/Midland Road and Purchese Street demolished? It would be much simpler than trying to make changes to the current Grade 1 listed building, although would probably be quite a bit more expensive.

Given that you are dealing with a community heavily impacted by HS2 construction work, that after the Kings Cross redevelopment, you can expect massive opposition if major work at St Pancras is proposed.

The local MP, who it currently appears is quite likely to be PM in eighteen months, may have a view too....

 

[Mountain Man]

Electric cars are still a relatively niche and small business, and have a lot of problems which aren’t seen on the surface. This is off-topic but my point is that you can’t just blindly use electric cars to support electric planes being a thing

I'm not. If you actually understand what the aerospace sector is doing you'll be aware of the technology advances being made.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2023 ==

The reality is that a large fraction of flights are taken by a very small portion of the population.

Irrelevant. Politics is about perception. The policy wouldn't last a week with the UK media

 

[Trainbike46]

A second tunnel is not needed. Some sums:

There are 4 paths for passenger trains every hour (departures from St. Pancras at :01, :04, :31 and :34) and a small number of hours with a 5th extra path departing St Pancras at :16
currently only eurostar use these paths, but theoretically any other operator could use them if they wanted to run services to the UK in the future.

So, using only the current paths and existing e320 trains, the channel tunnel has a capacity of 4 x 900 = 3600 passengers per hour, rising to 4500 passengers for the hours with the 5th path

If you switched to using duplex trains, with a capacity of ~1350 passengers per train, this goes up to 5400 passengers per hour (6750 for hours with a 5th path)

My understanding is, currently St. Pancras has a capacity of ~1500 passengers per hour (source: https://twitter.com/EurostarJustinp/status/1574711574337495041/photo/1)

There are plans to increase St. Pancras capacity, and of course some of the passengers could be coming from Ebbsfleet and Ashford, but I doubt the capacity increase will come even close to the theoretical limit of 6750 passengers per hour before you start needing a second tunnel!

Though I would hope the capacity upgrade brings us a lot closer to the 3600 passengers maximum capacity that can be achieved with current rolling stock, because it would allow eurostar (and potential on-rail competitors, if they ever show up) to grow, and take a larger share of the London to Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam air market

 

[Bald Rick]

because it would allow eurostar (and potential on-rail competitors, if they ever show up) to grow, and take a larger share of the London to Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam air market

Eurostar already has almost all the London-Brussels air+rail passenger market, save for those changing planes at one or other end. Even if everyone flying between the two cities swapped to Eurostar, it would fill less than one e320 a day each way.

Amsterdam, however, is a different kettle of fish. Huge opportunity - enough market for an hourly service if the capacity can be found. It’s just a shame it isn’t quicker - it’s only around 60 miles further than Paris from London yet takes 1h40 longer.

 

[Trainbike46]

Eurostar already has almost all the London-Brussels air+rail passenger market, save for those changing planes at one or other end. Even if everyone flying between the two cities swapped to Eurostar, it would fill less than one e320 a day each way.

Amsterdam, however, is a different kettle of fish. Huge opportunity - enough market for an hourly service if the capacity can be found. It’s just a shame it isn’t quicker - it’s only around 60 miles further than Paris from London yet takes 1h40 longer.

It's unfortunate that there's the section between Brussels and Antwerp without a high-speed line, that is for sure! Though there have been some efforts to improve speed (including no longer taking Amsterdam to Brussels passengers), and hopefully some more things can be done to improve speed

Do you happen to know how much the upgrades coming will improve St Pancras capacity? And if so, are you at liberty to share?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2023 ==

Potentially long term, there could be an hourly Amsterdam service (calling at Brussels and Rotterdam), with the lille calls taken by half-hourly Paris trains instead, with say half the trains calling at Lille maybe. That way, everything gets at least an hourly service, and there's capacity where it is most useful (Amsterdam and Paris)

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you happen to know how much the upgrades coming will improve St Pancras capacity? And if so, are you at liberty to share?

I don’t I’m afraid.

Potentially long term, there could be an hourly Amsterdam service (calling at Brussels and Rotterdam), with the lille calls taken by half-hourly Paris trains instead, with say half the trains calling at Lille maybe. That way, everything gets at least an hourly service, and there's capacity where it is most useful (Amsterdam and Paris)

Lille doesn’t need an hourly service from London. One every couple of hours is more than sufficient.

 

[zwk500]

Potentially long term, there could be an hourly Amsterdam service (calling at Brussels and Rotterdam), with the lille calls taken by half-hourly Paris trains instead, with say half the trains calling at Lille maybe. That way, everything gets at least an hourly service, and there's capacity where it is most useful (Amsterdam and Paris)

If there's market to fill an hourly Amsterdam-London, you'd want to omit the stop at Brussels. A reasonable medium-term option (assuming full capacity can be processed at the stations) is 1tp2h direct to Rotterdam and Amsterdam, 1tp2h to Lille and Brussels, with hourly Paris non-stop in between.

 

[Starmill]

If there's market to fill an hourly Amsterdam-London, you'd want to omit the stop at Brussels. A reasonable medium-term option (assuming full capacity can be processed at the stations) is 1tp2h direct to Rotterdam and Amsterdam, 1tp2h to Lille and Brussels, with hourly Paris non-stop in between.

Surely an hourly Paris - Brussels - Antwerp - Rotterdam - Schipol - Amsterdam would be a priority for the company over anything additional to do with London? More demand, economies which are growing more quickly, no crazy queues or border facilities to deal with and more stops which means higher seat utilisation. London services have all of the opposite disadvantages as well as costing much more to run.

Amsterdam - London services may return after their upcoming suspension, but they'll always be more expensive to operate and more difficult to fill by a long way.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Surely an hourly Paris - Brussels - Antwerp - Rotterdam - Schipol - Amsterdam would be a priority for the company over anything additional to do with London? More demand, economies which are growing more quickly, no crazy queues or border facilities to deal with and more stops which means higher seat utilisation. London services have all of the opposite disadvantages as well as costing much more to run.

Amsterdam - London services may return after their upcoming suspension, but they'll always be more expensive to operate and more difficult to fill by a long way.

There is already an hourly Paris to Amsterdam service for most of the day (although there are a couple of gaps)

 

[Starmill]

There is already an hourly Paris to Amsterdam service for most of the day (although there are a couple of gaps)

There are quite a few gaps in the timetable I'm looking at, where the connection is into a train from London at Lille. I'm just pointing out that Eurostar could choose to flip those.