Could a steam special run through the Channel Tunnel?

[Trainfan344]

Following a discussion with a friend this weekend.

Is it hypothetically possible to run a steam special through the channel tunnel?

With Tornado I believe being fitted with ETCS compatible technology, would it be able to pull a rake of high spec Pullman coaches through the channel tunnel?

I'm sure there's a list of reasons it can't be done but just curious.

 

[OneOfThe48]

I can’t see why a steam loco couldn’t theoretically make the journey, but it certainly wouldn’t be allowed for safety reasons.

First reason that comes to mind is the restriction on minimum carriage lengths and door positions to align with the service tunnel emergency exits.

 

[John Webb]

I recall that after the first fire in the tunnel had occurred and after mitigation works, a steam loco was taken into the tunnel (in light steam and hauled by a diesel loco) to check that improved detection systems would pick up the products of combustion. So a steam loco would not be allowed to enter the tunnel hauling a train as it would trigger various emergency systems.

 

[ac6000cw]

With Tornado I believe being fitted with ETCS compatible technology, would it be able to pull a rake of high spec Pullman coaches through the channel tunnel?

The channel tunnel isn't equipped with ETCS, it uses the French TVM430 signalling system, as do the HSL routes on either side of it.

 

[Iskra]

I recall that after the first fire in the tunnel had occurred and after mitigation works, a steam loco was taken into the tunnel (in light steam and hauled by a diesel loco) to check that improved detection systems would pick up the products of combustion. So a steam loco would not be allowed to enter the tunnel hauling a train as it would trigger various emergency systems.

Is that the only steam locomotive to run through the tunnel then? Does anyone know which loco?

 

[paul1609]

Is that the only steam locomotive to run through the tunnel then? Does anyone know which loco?

It was a French 4-6-0 but it only ran as far as the French crossover so no steam engine has been all the way through. At the KESR we send steam locos to galas at our twin railway Baie de la Somme but these have always gone on a low loader via P&O ferries.

 

[Iskra]

It was a French 4-6-0 but it only ran as far as the French crossover so no steam engine has been all the way through. At the KESR we send steam locos to galas at our twin railway Baie de la Somme but these have always gone on a low loader via P&O ferries.

Interesting, thank you!

 

[zwk500]

Following a discussion with a friend this weekend.

Is it hypothetically possible to run a steam special through the channel tunnel?

With Tornado I believe being fitted with ETCS compatible technology, would it be able to pull a rake of high spec Pullman coaches through the channel tunnel?

I'm sure there's a list of reasons it can't be done but just curious.

100% would never be allowed in steam. And Steam locos take days to cool down and warm up properly, so you'd only haul it through the Tunnel if you were planning to spend a reasonable amount of time on the other side (say, perhaps, you wanted to take DB up on their offer of 'steam as fast as you like' during their occasional festivals).

The channel tunnel isn't equipped with ETCS, it uses the French TVM430 signalling system, as do the HSL routes on either side of it.

AIUI the ETCS on-train DMI does have a TVM interfacing mode, although you'd need to fit the TVM aerials to receive the signals. ETCS uses GSM-R radio for the transmissions, TVM uses coded frequency track circuits. You'd also need the Channel-Tunnel specific curves and dataset for the TVM calculations.

 

[D365]

With Tornado I believe being fitted with ETCS compatible technology, would it be able to pull a rake of high spec Pullman coaches through the channel tunnel?

I'm sure there's a list of reasons it can't be done but just curious.

The first problem being that the Channel Tunnel (and HS1) is not fitted with ETCS signalling.

AIUI the ETCS on-train DMI does have a TVM interfacing mode, although you'd need to fit the TVM aerials to receive the signals. ETCS uses GSM-R radio for the transmissions, TVM uses coded frequency track circuits. You'd also need the Channel-Tunnel specific curves and dataset for the TVM calculations.

Other than Class 92, the ETCS Freight and 'Pathfinder' fitments don't have electrical interfaces for TVM.

 

[zwk500]

Other than Class 92, the ETCS Freight and 'Pathfinder' fitments don't have electrical interfaces for TVM.

Indeed, but Steam isn't going to be allowed to work through the tunnel under it's own power anyway so you'd need the 92 on the front. Do you know if the Class 374 have conventional TVM fitted alongside the ETCS or does it use the compatibility mode?

 

[MarkyT]

Indeed, but Steam isn't going to be allowed to work through the tunnel under it's own power anyway so you'd need the 92 on the front. Do you know if the Class 374 have conventional TVM fitted alongside the ETCS or does it use the compatibility mode?

I don't know for sure but I'd expect a modern train like the Velaro to emulate a legacy system like TVM within its ETCS computers and cab screens. Still needs the additional antenna clearly.

 

[Intercity110]

Perhaps, but the loco would have to be dragged, perhaps with a tunnel maintainable loco or a class 92. There may be an issue with ash so not in steam, and definitely not with passengers. I don’t think channel tunnel allow rail tours, even if it was with a compatible locomotive. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

 

[paul1609]

Perhaps, but the loco would have to be dragged, perhaps with a tunnel maintainable loco or a class 92. There may be an issue with ash so not in steam, and definitely not with passengers. I don’t think channel tunnel allow rail tours, even if it was with a compatible locomotive. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I think that there have been in the past Eurostar Charters by UK Railtours but I don't think there is any other passenger stock that meets the fire regulations of the tunnel so its a moot point really.

 

[ac6000cw]

I don’t think channel tunnel allow rail tours, even if it was with a compatible locomotive. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

AFAIK, only passenger rolling stock that meets the specific Channel Tunnel safety rules & requirements is allowed through it with passengers on board. So in normal circumstances that basically excludes everything other than the Shuttle trains, 373s and 374s.

Plenty of other passenger rolling stock has been hauled through it on delivery runs, but that's running empty as freight. Also a pair of 319s (with modified pantographs) carried invited guests through it before it opened for normal operations, back in 1993/94.

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps, but the loco would have to be dragged, perhaps with a tunnel maintainable loco or a class 92. There may be an issue with ash so not in steam, and definitely not with passengers. I don’t think channel tunnel allow rail tours, even if it was with a compatible locomotive. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

There's nothing specific that says the Channel Tunnel wouldn't allow an STP path, but it would need to be by a licensed operator, using approved stock (locos and carriages) - and passenger stock must meet the EU fire regulations regarding evacuation or extraction. Definitely not in steam, and given the time it takes to cool a loco down and the slow speeds needed to haul dead steam locos you couldn't run steam from London via classic lines and then just drop a 92 on the front.
Although this has given me a fun image of a 373 half set with a translator wagon being taken for a jolly round Kent by 60163.

Eurostar have definitely run specially chartered trains in the past - most notably for the Cannes Film Festival - but with standard Eurostar stock.

 

[paul1609]

AFAIK, only passenger rolling stock that meets the specific Channel Tunnel safety rules & requirements is allowed through it with passengers on board. So in normal circumstances that basically excludes everything other than the Shuttle trains, 373s and 374s.

Plenty of other passenger rolling stock has been hauled through it on delivery runs, but that's running empty as freight. Also a pair of 319s (with modified pantographs) carried invited guests through it before it opened for normal operations, back in 1993/94.

Any Uk gauge stock would have a huge gap between the platform and the train anywhere on the other side of the tunnel. When the 395s used the international platforms at Stratford during the Olympics temporary plywood platforms had to be built to increase the height and close the gap. 395s aren't allowed to use platforms 3 & 4 at Ashford International in passenger use.

 

[zwk500]

Any Uk gauge stock would have a huge gap between the platform and the train anywhere on the other side of the tunnel. When the 395s used the international platforms at Stratford during the Olympics temporary plywood platforms had to be built to increase the height and close the gap. 395s aren't allowed to use platforms 3 & 4 at Ashford International in passenger use.

As illustrated quite nicely at Lille by a Class 373 here: https://www.alamy.com/lille-france-...n-station-in-lille-france-image448374584.html
Crop:

 

[Snow1964]

AFAIK, only passenger rolling stock that meets the specific Channel Tunnel safety rules & requirements is allowed through it with passengers on board. So in normal circumstances that basically excludes everything other than the Shuttle trains, 373s and 374s.

Plenty of other passenger rolling stock has been hauled through it on delivery runs, but that's running empty as freight. Also a pair of 319s (with modified pantographs) carried invited guests through it before it opened for normal operations, back in 1993/94.

I suppose someone could charter a 373 or 374, but Brexit has made it even more difficult as everyone now needs passports that can be stamped etc.

Potentially some of the other new generation multi-system European high speed trains could be certified, but really our border control system works against it.

However I guess in theory it would be possible to haul a train through as freight and use it other side, if French allowed it to be used.

 

[zwk500]

I suppose someone could charter a 373 or 374, but Brexit has made it even more difficult as everyone now needs passports that can be stamped etc.

I don't see how Brexit has made any substantive difference, passport checks have always been needed. For one train the extra time isn't really a massive issue, it's the cumulative effect of thousands of passengers that has made the brexit checks problematic.

Potentially some of the other new generation multi-system European high speed trains could be certified, but really our border control system works against it.

The 374 is based on the Velaro Platform, and DB managed to get the rules changed with a view to certifying the ICE3 sets (not sure how far that went though). Given the requirements for fire safety have now been changed to just meeting an EU standard for evacuation to the service tunnel or extraction to a portal, and the new long Alpine tunnels, I wouldn't be surprised if most recent HS Trains would get relatively straightforward certification.

However legacy coaching stock is very unlikely to get approval to operate through with passengers on board, so no Pullman/VSOE/CIWL type excursions without decamping to a coach for Le Shuttle and dragging the stock through with 92s.

 

[paul1609]

However legacy coaching stock is very unlikely to get approval to operate through with passengers on board, so no Pullman/VSOE/CIWL type excursions without decamping to a coach for Le Shuttle and dragging the stock through with 92s.

Meanwhile in the heritage sector..... (don't tell hmri)

 

[ac6000cw]

However legacy coaching stock is very unlikely to get approval to operate through with passengers on board,

I agree (or it would cost far too much to modify to be worth it).

so no Pullman/VSOE/CIWL type excursions without decamping to a coach for Le Shuttle and dragging the stock through with 92s.

...which would doubtless add considerable time and cost to the trip - and of course any UK stock is basically unusable on the other side of the channel without high platforms for boarding/alighting.

 

[zwk500]

Meanwhile in the heritage sector..... (don't tell hmri)

ah, the French attitude to safety. The Channel Tunnel being bi-laterally managed, of course, isn't quite so relaxed.

I agree (or it would cost far too much to modify to be worth it).

very much so.

...which would doubtless add considerable time and cost to the trip - and of course any UK stock is basically unusable on the other side of the channel without high platforms for boarding/alighting.

I mean, for a Orient express type thing where they already do a steam hauled trip to Folkestone then bus you to Calais for the onward trip I don't think the time/costs would be overbearing (if frustrating) and the platform issues could be managed with staffing and carrying suitably embellished steps or some other solution, given the passengers largely remain on the train throughout. However for a more 'normal' basher's trip it would indeed be problematic. However we're about to go wildly off-topic into 'what potential tours could run through the tunnel' so I'll leave it as steam won't be hauling.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't see how Brexit has made any substantive difference, passport checks have always been needed. For one train the extra time isn't really a massive issue, it's the cumulative effect of thousands of passengers that has made the brexit checks problematic.

For security reasons passengers would have to go through formalities at St Pancras, or at one of the currently disused facilities at Ebbsfleet or Ashford, or an equivalent secure facility would have to be set up somewhere else and qualified UK and French border staff brought in. This includes baggage screening as well as passport control. Realistically the only charter option is a Eurostar set starting from St Pancras.

 

[MarkyT]

As illustrated quite nicely at Lille by a Class 373 here: https://www.alamy.com/lille-france-...n-station-in-lille-france-image448374584.html
Crop:
View attachment 135699

That'll be a modern French 550mm standard platform, with the cl.373, typical of HS stock at the time of construction, having a floor height of around 1100mm. Around 550mm (nearly 22 inches) difference to climb up into the vehicle via the steps, almost up to shoulder height on that small child in the picture!

 

[zwk500]

For security reasons passengers would have to go through formalities at St Pancras, or at one of the currently disused facilities at Ebbsfleet or Ashford, or an equivalent secure facility would have to be set up somewhere else and qualified UK and French border staff brought in. This includes baggage screening as well as passport control. Realistically the only charter option is a Eurostar set starting from St Pancras.

Yes but all that applied before the Great Shooting of Own Foot anyway. The actual changes for individual passenger brought about by Brexit are fairly small, it's the cumulative effect of thousands of passengers that its causing the problems. As seen at Dover - normally it's flowing quite happily, it's only at high peak times that they're struggling to check everybody in time.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes but all that applied before the Great Shooting of Own Foot anyway. The actual changes for individual passenger brought about by Brexit are fairly small, it's the cumulative effect of thousands of passengers that its causing the problems. As seen at Dover - normally it's flowing quite happily, it's only at high peak times that they're struggling to check everybody in time.

Agreed. Not so much a Brexit issue as something that would have been a problem anyway, although the extra passport processing time means St Pancras is less likely to be able to accept an extra charter train than it was before.

 

[MarkyT]

For continental charter coaching stock, I wonder if some of the former Nightstar vehicles might be possible to repatriate from Canada when Via Rail eventually withdraws the fleet. That was originally built by Alstom for tunnel safety standards, which partly explains their high weight of over 50t per car, although they were never used commercially in UK or mainland Europe. A restoration might incorporate high-end CIWL-style heritage livery and perhaps some matching luxury decor inside (subject to fire regs)! LeShuttle's freight operation employs fairly conventional passenger trailers coupled into the partially enclosed flatcar consist to accommodate road vehicle drivers during the transit. There's nothing to prevent loco-hauled passenger trains through the tunnel, but the stock, formation and operating methods used must address the current safety standards. Adapting older stock not originally built to the appropriate standards might be possible theoretically but is unlikely to be economically viable, especially for a marginal niche market. One of the key tunnel safety ideas was that trains must have two separate locos or sources of motive power. Class 373s satisfy this as they are formed of two independently powered half sets coupled together, that can be detached and moved independently in emergency. The 92s were more innovative by effectively combining two separate locomotives into one bodyshell, with the two full sets of equipment isolated in different fireproof compartments onboard. This permitted the locos to haul freight through the tunnel singly, something the French BBs used for a while were not allowed to do.

For steam, perhaps a modern oil-fired loco might be dragged through, in steam but with burners extinguished and clearly having no pan full of hot ashes. The oil burners might then be relit on arrival at the other side and progress quickly resumed.

Agreed. Not so much a Brexit issue as something that would have been a problem anyway, although the extra passport processing time means St Pancras is less likely to be able to accept an extra charter train than it was before.

Likely to have to run at quiet times relative to the routine operation, although, if a charter was a high-end luxury operation like the VSOE, then the actual passenger numbers would be fairly small compared to a typical well-loaded Eurostar.

 

[paul1609]

Yes but all that applied before the Great Shooting of Own Foot anyway. The actual changes for individual passenger brought about by Brexit are fairly small, it's the cumulative effect of thousands of passengers that its causing the problems. As seen at Dover - normally it's flowing quite happily, it's only at high peak times that they're struggling to check everybody in time.

As anybody that lives in Kent will tell you the channel crossing peak capacity issues have been around for at least 50 years and have been gradually getting worse, what's really changed with Brexit is that it now gets outraged media coverage especially from the BBC.

 

[Welly]

Did you know that in the middle of the Channel Tunnel, the climate is 100% humidity and 100 Degrees F (37.8 degrees C)? No way any steam loco crew will work that!

 

[zwk500]

For continental charter coaching stock, I wonder if some of the former Nightstar vehicles might be possible to repatriate from Canada when Via Rail eventually withdraws the fleet. That was originally built by Alstom for tunnel safety standards, which partly explains their high weight of over 50t per car, although they were never used commercially in UK or mainland Europe. A restoration might incorporate high-end CIWL-style heritage livery and perhaps some matching luxury decor inside (subject to fire regs)!

I can't see it being worth it, especially as the fire regs have been relaxed since the Nighstar stock was built - you now need to demonstrate either fire resistance until the train can be extracted out of the nearest portal, or being able to safely evacuate passengers into the service tunnel within a certain time frame.

LeShuttle's freight operation employs fairly conventional passenger trailers coupled into the partially enclosed flatcar consist to accommodate road vehicle drivers during the transit. There's nothing to prevent loco-hauled passenger trains through the tunnel, but the stock, formation and operating methods used must address the current safety standards.

It was pointed out on another thread that the Le Shuttle passenger carriages for drivers were specially built to their fire regs and are not the smae as french conventional carriages (I was under this misapprehension as well).

Adapting older stock not originally built to the appropriate standards might be possible theoretically but is unlikely to be economically viable, especially for a marginal niche market. One of the key tunnel safety ideas was that trains must have two separate locos or sources of motive power. Class 373s satisfy this as they are formed of two independently powered half sets coupled together, that can be detached and moved independently in emergency. The 92s were more innovative by effectively combining two separate locomotives into one bodyshell, with the two full sets of equipment isolated in different fireproof compartments onboard. This permitted the locos to haul freight through the tunnel singly, something the French BBs used for a while were not allowed to do.

And this requirement was what held up the German plans for a long time - as the ICEs use distributed traction and couldn't be split into half sets in the same way. However some serious lobbying by DE and Eurostar got the rules updated to match European regulations/directives, I suspect largely to allow Eurostar to get the 374s cleared through (although apparently approving the Siemens units through the Tunnel cost the french representative on the board his job). I'm not sure if 374s can be split mid-journey.

For steam, perhaps a modern oil-fired loco might be dragged through, in steam but with burners extinguished and clearly having no pan full of hot ashes. The oil burners might then be relit on arrival at the other side and progress quickly resumed.

Can an Oil-fired steamer heat up quicker than a Coal-fired loco? I was led to believe it's the metal of the boiler changing shape if it expands too quickly that's the problem, not getting the fire to temperature.

Likely to have to run at quiet times relative to the routine operation, although, if a charter was a high-end luxury operation like the VSOE, then the actual passenger numbers would be fairly small compared to a typical well-loaded Eurostar.

I'd dearly love for it to be done one day (if/when Ashford is reopened) for a Steamer to take the VSOE out of Victoria to Ashford, then while everybody does a shuffle (with the band and a drinks reception to distract them) slyly swap the steam for a 92 and forward into the Tunnel, with the 92 taking the train into Calais-Ville for the french steam loco to drop on the back.