delt1c
Established Member
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- 4 Apr 2008
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Have we met? I think not .Your point is? Rather then being argumentative or attempt at being sarcastic which by the way doesn't suit you why not explain why it's a bad idea?
Have we met? I think not .Your point is? Rather then being argumentative or attempt at being sarcastic which by the way doesn't suit you why not explain why it's a bad idea?
Not necessarily. I’m sure that’s referring to the services formerly operated by Central trains, not long distance XC...
I'm going from Leeds to Salford.
So I can get to Manchester Piccadilly on a long distance service, then have to find my way to another station for the last part of the journey?
Agreed but when they do have interchange why remove it and make it more complicated.
Up to a point it does, but if you actually want to go to Derby half the trains will go from Moor Street and the other half from New Street. I suppose it provides balance for half the trains to Worcester going from Moor Street/Snow Hill and the other half New Street which is what already happens.So it's the Cardiff/Gloucester to Brum/Derby/Nottingham services that could use Moor Street whilst the Bristol to the North services continue to use New Street? That makes sense.
Right back to the big timetable changes in the early 2000s, every 30min or so an XC train via Sheffield fails to make a Nottingham connection in both directions, often passing each other on the station throat. So if you change between XC trains at Derby you usually face a 30min wait, although the Matlock-Nottingham is a bit better. Not too surprising that people prefer to connect between the same pair of trains at New Street, spending the time on a train rather than in a small and not very comfortable waiting room.Currently National Rail by default recommends passengers traveling between Nottingham and the South West via Birmingham change at Birmingham (in both directions), and I get the impression most do even though Derby is generally much more convenient/civilized. Maybe this is due to train loadings or something?
Anyhow, if Derby became the default changing point after Nottingham to Birmingham trains were routed to Moor St., this would minimize the inconvenience.
Have we met? I think not .
New St to Moor St isn't that far. I have to do it every time I visit my parents from Edinburgh (and York a few years ago). Usually with a suitcase, rucksack and laptop bag.
To free up capacity so that there are more trains to/from Birmingham overall.
Arriva XC suggested four recommended change stations in their timetables to avoid New St (Derby and Leamington Spa being two of them) soon after taking over, but went on to explain that most planners would continue to recommend New St, IIRC this was because no one was prepared to deal with the reprogramming...Currently National Rail by default recommends passengers traveling between Nottingham and the South West via Birmingham change at Birmingham (in both directions), and I get the impression most do even though Derby is generally much more convenient/civilized. Maybe this is due to train loadings or something?
Anyhow, if Derby became the default changing point after Nottingham to Birmingham trains were routed to Moor St., this would minimize the inconvenience.
The best connecting place (if both relevant services call there) is Cheltenham, because with only one platform in each direction all connections are guaranteed to be same platform! In may experience the 170s are also slightly less crowded between Birmingham and Cheltenham than the Voyagers, and in my opinion more comfortable too.Arriva XC suggested four recommended change stations in their timetables to avoid New St (Derby and Leamington Spa being two of them) soon after taking over, but went on to explain that most planners would continue to recommend New St, IIRC this was because no one was prepared to deal with the reprogramming...
Yes, I'm sure Cheltenham was one but I couldn't remember. I'll try and find exactly what it said in an old timetable, they've dropped the relevant advice nowadays.The best connecting place (if both relevant services call there) is Cheltenham, because with only one platform in each direction all connections are guaranteed to be same platform! In may experience the 170s are also slightly less crowded between Birmingham and Cheltenham than the Voyagers, and in my opinion more comfortable too.
Birmingham New Street
Many journeys with CrossCountry include a change at Birmingham New Street station and we understand this can, on occasions, be
a difficult place to transfer between trains, especially if you’re travelling with children, cycles or heavy luggage.
While for some journeys changing trains at Birmingham New Street is unavoidable, for others there are alternatives where you will find it easier to change between CrossCountry services if there isn’t a direct train. These are Wolverhampton, Cheltenham Spa, Derby and Leamington Spa. In some cases you will be able to change trains without having to change platforms, making your journey even smoother.
We recommend these locations to change trains not just because it is more convenient for you, but also because as large stations, they offer the facilities you tell us are important including waiting rooms, toilets and somewhere to obtain refreshments. There are staff at Wolverhampton, Cheltenham Spa, Derby and Leamington Spa ready to help you find your connecting train and provide you with journey information.
[...]
Please note that if you have booked journey assistance through our JourneyCare service, you are advised to travel as indicated on your schedule and tickets.
http://www.railtables.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/railtables/xc/dec10/table2.pdf
One possibility for transferring services to Snow Hill is to build a chord linking the Soho loop with the Snow Hill line, shouldn't be any more difficult than building chord(s) to the Camp Hill line. This would allow the Shrewsbury / mid Wales service to be diverted to Snow Hill, with the fast services possibly being operated by Chiltern to give Shrewsbury a regular London service rather than the current limited Virgin one.
Sounds like a good idea but as a document states by NR, it would require four-tracking and new platforms to snow hill.
We could always convert the section of Midland Metro between The Hawhorns and Snow Hill as tram-train to add a chord at Soho. Instant 4 tracking.
At the same time, TfWM could just lump it if they disagree
Now I suspect you know it wouldn't work like that.At the same time, TfWM could just lump it if they disagree
The Metro could run on the street from the St Pauls to Soho Benson Road. Constitution Hill - Great Hampton Street - Key Hill - Lodge Road (or Hodge Hill - Whitmore Street)- Park Road - Benson Road
I think if more heavy rail capacity was needed in Birmingham after HS2 then the Cross City Line would be tunneled from somewhere near Duddesdon to somewhere near Five Ways, with the only underground station being a simple two-platform station at New Street (perhaps linking to Moor Street/Curzon Street at the other end like some Crossrail stations link to two Underground stations). This ought to release quite a bit of capacity in New Street - if necessary the Walsall line services could use the same tunnel and turn back somewhere.
I think if more heavy rail capacity was needed in Birmingham after HS2 then the Cross City Line would be tunneled from somewhere near Duddesdon to somewhere near Five Ways, with the only underground station being a simple two-platform station at New Street (perhaps linking to Moor Street/Curzon Street at the other end like some Crossrail stations link to two Underground stations). This ought to release quite a bit of capacity in New Street - if necessary the Walsall line services could use the same tunnel and turn back somewhere.
Isn't Snow Hill more or less on a straight line between those points ? But of course New Street offers far better connectivity
That isn't a valid point, Cross Country have encouraged it's passengers to change at stations other then Birmingham New Street such as Cardiff to Edinburgh passengers changing at Cheltenham Spa which is or should be same platform interchange which reduces transfer times as would be the case at Birmingham New Street, these same passengers can and will continue to change at Cheltenham Spa, Derby, Leamington Spa and Wolverhampton.
My point is and what you neglect to mention is I said nothing of long distance services being relocated, just the regional ones ie Birmingham to Leicester, my other point is at the moment if you're travelling from Birmingham to Stirling you still have to change at Glasgow so what's the difference between changing at Moor Street or New Street? Answer there is none.
The distance between Moor Street and New Street is similar to Kings Cross and St Pancras which isn't a issue so I can't see why Birmingham is such a issue.
If a number of regional services can be moved which allows for extra long distance services then that's a good thing, it's a small price to pay for more connectivity with the rest of the UK.
Although it is not possible at this moment in time to re-introduce traditional Intercity services at Birmingham Snow Hill, for information it is possible to do as close as to the original route from London Paddington to Birkenhead (for purposes of this thread being as Birkenhead Woodside is no more, I have used Birkenhead Central as a substitute) in the same day northbound.
11:35 London Paddington - High Wycombe*
12:34 High Wycombe - Birmingham Moor Street
14:09 Birmingham Moor Street - The Hawthorns (also 13:59 BMO if connection made)
Midland Metro tram from The Hawthorns to Wolverhampton St Georges
Walk to the present day Wolverhampton station (built by the former London & North Western Railway at the time)
15:25 Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury**
16:24 Shrewsbury - Chester
17:31 Chester - Birkenhead Central arr 18:04
* According to the PSUL website, this train will be diverted away from the New North Line (between Old Oak Common and Greenford) to run via Ealing Broadway and West Ealing from the December 2018 timetable change.
** If the 12:34 High Wycombe - Birmingham Moor Street runs to time and arrives BMO ahead of schedule with the unrecognised connection with the 14:49 made, it is possible to pick up the 14:43 Aberystwyth train at Wolverhampton changing at Shrewsbury for the 15:59 ex Cardiff - Holyhead to Chester, then the 16:31 to Birkenhead Central.
Doing this southbound, this would involve an overnight stay in Birmingham.
Birkenhead Central - Chester
Chester - Shrewsbury
Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton
Walk to Wolverhampton St Georges
Midland Metro tram Wolverhampton St Georges - The Hawthorns or Jewellery Quarter
The Hawthorns or Jewellery Quarter - Birmingham Snow Hill
Overnight stay in Birmingham
08:25 Birmingham Moor Street - High Wycombe (08:22 ex Birmingham Snow Hill)
10:20 High Wycombe - South Ruislip
10:57 South Ruislip - London Paddington arr 11:23*
* According to the PSUL website, this train will be diverted away from the New North Line (between Old Oak Common and Greenford) to run via Ealing Broadway and West Ealing from the December 2018 timetable change.
Calm yourself.
If where I lived (Liverpool) had cross-country services, this would be less of an issue for me, as I'd have to change less. Sometimes I get the chance to cjanhe somewhere else, usually Stafford. However, very often the only way I can get where I'm going is trundling to New Street and changing there.
Yes, Moor Street to New Street is not the Long March, but it is long, unpleasant and inconvenient enough to put people off. Every time you put someone off train travel, you decrease the chance that they will continue using trains.
I'm also struggling to see how any increased capacity will come about from the proposed changes. You're just moving things from one overcrowded station to another slightly less overcrowded one
Moor Street to New Street is long, unpleasant and inconvenient? Are we talking about the same two stations because these two are closer then Glasgow Central to Glasgow Queen Street, Bradford Interchange to Bradford Foster Square in fact they're probably the same distance from Kings Cross Platforms 1 - 8 to St Pancras Int Eurostar/SE High Speed platforms.
Yes every time you put someone off train travel they're less likely to want to repeat the experience but your opinion doesn't match reality, as your words are the last words I use to describe a transfer between the two.
You also neglect that you could have changed at Crewe instead of New Street if need be.
As to the proposed changes, the powers to be obviously have thought this out otherwise they wouldn't have suggested it and so by rerouting a few local services via Moor Street/Snow Hill these paths via New Street can be used for more long distance services as it also opens up new journey opportunities.
It's all about balancing demand and if this is the best way to do it then so be it.
So, because changing trains in Bradford and Glasgow is awkward, it should be made harder in Brum as well ?
If I could have changed at Crewe, I would have done. However, on many occasions I have found that I had to change at New Street.
The powers that be, of course, have never got anything wrong. Where is this abundance of new long-distance services which they promise ? Last time I looked the XC consultation looked had a distinct whiff of treading water about it.