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Could Birmingham Snow Hill/Moor Street ever see more Long Distance services?

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vlad

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Not necessarily. I’m sure that’s referring to the services formerly operated by Central trains, not long distance XC...

So it's the Cardiff/Gloucester to Brum/Derby/Nottingham services that could use Moor Street whilst the Bristol to the North services continue to use New Street? That makes sense.

I'm going from Leeds to Salford.
So I can get to Manchester Piccadilly on a long distance service, then have to find my way to another station for the last part of the journey?

If TPE are having a good day you can get from Leeds to Manchester Victoria on a long-distance service then get a connection to Salford Central/Crescent from the same station. 8-)
 

kje7812

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New St to Moor St isn't that far. I have to do it every time I visit my parents from Edinburgh (and York a few years ago). Usually with a suitcase, rucksack and laptop bag.
 

AndyW33

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So it's the Cardiff/Gloucester to Brum/Derby/Nottingham services that could use Moor Street whilst the Bristol to the North services continue to use New Street? That makes sense.
Up to a point it does, but if you actually want to go to Derby half the trains will go from Moor Street and the other half from New Street. I suppose it provides balance for half the trains to Worcester going from Moor Street/Snow Hill and the other half New Street which is what already happens.
 

aylesbury

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Are there not plans for two more platforms here so that will give a bit more capacity but that's it so there are only a finite number of new services that could use them.Just where would they go to?
 
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edwin_m

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Currently National Rail by default recommends passengers traveling between Nottingham and the South West via Birmingham change at Birmingham (in both directions), and I get the impression most do even though Derby is generally much more convenient/civilized. Maybe this is due to train loadings or something?
Anyhow, if Derby became the default changing point after Nottingham to Birmingham trains were routed to Moor St., this would minimize the inconvenience.
Right back to the big timetable changes in the early 2000s, every 30min or so an XC train via Sheffield fails to make a Nottingham connection in both directions, often passing each other on the station throat. So if you change between XC trains at Derby you usually face a 30min wait, although the Matlock-Nottingham is a bit better. Not too surprising that people prefer to connect between the same pair of trains at New Street, spending the time on a train rather than in a small and not very comfortable waiting room.
 

Aictos

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Have we met? I think not .

For the record, your post to which I replied you come across quite argumentative which is why I posted what I did and I won't apologise for saying what I think.

New St to Moor St isn't that far. I have to do it every time I visit my parents from Edinburgh (and York a few years ago). Usually with a suitcase, rucksack and laptop bag.

My point exactly, Moor Street to New Street isn't that far at all.

To free up capacity so that there are more trains to/from Birmingham overall.

Exactly the point I've been trying to make!
 

swt_passenger

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Currently National Rail by default recommends passengers traveling between Nottingham and the South West via Birmingham change at Birmingham (in both directions), and I get the impression most do even though Derby is generally much more convenient/civilized. Maybe this is due to train loadings or something?
Anyhow, if Derby became the default changing point after Nottingham to Birmingham trains were routed to Moor St., this would minimize the inconvenience.
Arriva XC suggested four recommended change stations in their timetables to avoid New St (Derby and Leamington Spa being two of them) soon after taking over, but went on to explain that most planners would continue to recommend New St, IIRC this was because no one was prepared to deal with the reprogramming...
 

edwin_m

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Arriva XC suggested four recommended change stations in their timetables to avoid New St (Derby and Leamington Spa being two of them) soon after taking over, but went on to explain that most planners would continue to recommend New St, IIRC this was because no one was prepared to deal with the reprogramming...
The best connecting place (if both relevant services call there) is Cheltenham, because with only one platform in each direction all connections are guaranteed to be same platform! In may experience the 170s are also slightly less crowded between Birmingham and Cheltenham than the Voyagers, and in my opinion more comfortable too.
 

swt_passenger

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The best connecting place (if both relevant services call there) is Cheltenham, because with only one platform in each direction all connections are guaranteed to be same platform! In may experience the 170s are also slightly less crowded between Birmingham and Cheltenham than the Voyagers, and in my opinion more comfortable too.
Yes, I'm sure Cheltenham was one but I couldn't remember. I'll try and find exactly what it said in an old timetable, they've dropped the relevant advice nowadays.
Here's an example on 'rail tables' from Dec 2010:
Birmingham New Street
Many journeys with CrossCountry include a change at Birmingham New Street station and we understand this can, on occasions, be
a difficult place to transfer between trains, especially if you’re travelling with children, cycles or heavy luggage.
While for some journeys changing trains at Birmingham New Street is unavoidable, for others there are alternatives where you will find it easier to change between CrossCountry services if there isn’t a direct train. These are Wolverhampton, Cheltenham Spa, Derby and Leamington Spa. In some cases you will be able to change trains without having to change platforms, making your journey even smoother.
We recommend these locations to change trains not just because it is more convenient for you, but also because as large stations, they offer the facilities you tell us are important including waiting rooms, toilets and somewhere to obtain refreshments. There are staff at Wolverhampton, Cheltenham Spa, Derby and Leamington Spa ready to help you find your connecting train and provide you with journey information.
[...]
Please note that if you have booked journey assistance through our JourneyCare service, you are advised to travel as indicated on your schedule and tickets.

http://www.railtables.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/railtables/xc/dec10/table2.pdf
 

edwin_m

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Did they drop this advice when New Street re-buildng was completed? Even though some people complain about it, it's still easier to change there than it was before (though I'd still go for Cheltenham if I got the choice).
 

Ian Murray

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WMTrains / WM Combined Authority have stated that we are talking 2020. It seems likely that the Hereford/Worcester to New St. service via Bromsgrove will move to also service the Camp Hill and terminate in Moor St.
 

gg1

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One possibility for transferring services to Snow Hill is to build a chord linking the Soho loop with the Snow Hill line, shouldn't be any more difficult than building chord(s) to the Camp Hill line. This would allow the Shrewsbury / mid Wales service to be diverted to Snow Hill, with the fast services possibly being operated by Chiltern to give Shrewsbury a regular London service rather than the current limited Virgin one.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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One possibility for transferring services to Snow Hill is to build a chord linking the Soho loop with the Snow Hill line, shouldn't be any more difficult than building chord(s) to the Camp Hill line. This would allow the Shrewsbury / mid Wales service to be diverted to Snow Hill, with the fast services possibly being operated by Chiltern to give Shrewsbury a regular London service rather than the current limited Virgin one.

Sounds like a good idea but as a document states by NR, it would require four-tracking and new platforms to snow hill.
 

Jamm

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Is the section between Moor St and Camp Hill chord planned to have 4 tracking if the chord gets built?
 

bussnapperwm

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Sounds like a good idea but as a document states by NR, it would require four-tracking and new platforms to snow hill.

We could always convert the section of Midland Metro between The Hawhorns and Snow Hill as tram-train to add a chord at Soho. Instant 4 tracking.

At the same time, TfWM could just lump it if they disagree
 

tomuk

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The Metro could run on the street from the St Pauls to Soho Benson Road. Constitution Hill - Great Hampton Street - Key Hill - Lodge Road (or Hodge Hill - Whitmore Street)- Park Road - Benson Road
 

Jorge Da Silva

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We could always convert the section of Midland Metro between The Hawhorns and Snow Hill as tram-train to add a chord at Soho. Instant 4 tracking.

At the same time, TfWM could just lump it if they disagree


Okay, makes sense. Suppose for new platforms you could add a platform 0 and have a couple of northern bays if you wanted in the island platforms.
 

edwin_m

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I think if more heavy rail capacity was needed in Birmingham after HS2 then the Cross City Line would be tunneled from somewhere near Duddesdon to somewhere near Five Ways, with the only underground station being a simple two-platform station at New Street (perhaps linking to Moor Street/Curzon Street at the other end like some Crossrail stations link to two Underground stations). This ought to release quite a bit of capacity in New Street - if necessary the Walsall line services could use the same tunnel and turn back somewhere.
 

gg1

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The Metro could run on the street from the St Pauls to Soho Benson Road. Constitution Hill - Great Hampton Street - Key Hill - Lodge Road (or Hodge Hill - Whitmore Street)- Park Road - Benson Road

That's starting to sound like my personal favourite FantasyRailProjectWhichDoesn'tStandAHopeInHellOfHappening :D :

Convert the Metro to street running in it's entirety along the old A41. The existing Metro alignment would then be converted to heavy rail with an extension along the original GWR trackbed from Priestfield to a junction with the Wolverhampton-Walsall line immediately east of Wolverhampton station.

I think if more heavy rail capacity was needed in Birmingham after HS2 then the Cross City Line would be tunneled from somewhere near Duddesdon to somewhere near Five Ways, with the only underground station being a simple two-platform station at New Street (perhaps linking to Moor Street/Curzon Street at the other end like some Crossrail stations link to two Underground stations). This ought to release quite a bit of capacity in New Street - if necessary the Walsall line services could use the same tunnel and turn back somewhere.

...and that would be my second favourite project, although unlike the first I do genuinely think this one could actually happen in my lifetime. At the southern end the logical place for the new line to diverge from the existing one is Five Ways, with a new station being constructed adjacent to the current one. With a junction at this site there is sufficient space for at least one, possibly 2 turnback sidings between the current lines and the canal to accommodate Walsall services.
 

B&I

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I think if more heavy rail capacity was needed in Birmingham after HS2 then the Cross City Line would be tunneled from somewhere near Duddesdon to somewhere near Five Ways, with the only underground station being a simple two-platform station at New Street (perhaps linking to Moor Street/Curzon Street at the other end like some Crossrail stations link to two Underground stations). This ought to release quite a bit of capacity in New Street - if necessary the Walsall line services could use the same tunnel and turn back somewhere.


Isn't Snow Hill more or less on a straight line between those points ? But of course New Street offers far better connectivity.

Re Walsall / Rugeley services, could these be included by more electrification and adding another southern terminus to the cross-city line, eg Worcester ?
 

B&I

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That isn't a valid point, Cross Country have encouraged it's passengers to change at stations other then Birmingham New Street such as Cardiff to Edinburgh passengers changing at Cheltenham Spa which is or should be same platform interchange which reduces transfer times as would be the case at Birmingham New Street, these same passengers can and will continue to change at Cheltenham Spa, Derby, Leamington Spa and Wolverhampton.

My point is and what you neglect to mention is I said nothing of long distance services being relocated, just the regional ones ie Birmingham to Leicester, my other point is at the moment if you're travelling from Birmingham to Stirling you still have to change at Glasgow so what's the difference between changing at Moor Street or New Street? Answer there is none.

The distance between Moor Street and New Street is similar to Kings Cross and St Pancras which isn't a issue so I can't see why Birmingham is such a issue.

If a number of regional services can be moved which allows for extra long distance services then that's a good thing, it's a small price to pay for more connectivity with the rest of the UK.


Calm yourself.

If where I lived (Liverpool) had cross-country services, this would be less of an issue for me, as I'd have to change less. Sometimes I get the chance to cjanhe somewhere else, usually Stafford. However, very often the only way I can get where I'm going is trundling to New Street and changing there.

Yes, Moor Street to New Street is not the Long March, but it is long, unpleasant and inconvenient enough to put people off. Every time you put someone off train travel, you decrease the chance that they will continue using trains.

I'm also struggling to see how any increased capacity will come about from the proposed changes. You're just moving things from one overcrowded station to another slightly less overcrowded one
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Although it is not possible at this moment in time to re-introduce traditional Intercity services at Birmingham Snow Hill, for information it is possible to do as close as to the original route from London Paddington to Birkenhead (for purposes of this thread being as Birkenhead Woodside is no more, I have used Birkenhead Central as a substitute) in the same day northbound.

11:35 London Paddington - High Wycombe*
12:34 High Wycombe - Birmingham Moor Street
14:09 Birmingham Moor Street - The Hawthorns (also 13:59 BMO if connection made)
Midland Metro tram from The Hawthorns to Wolverhampton St Georges
Walk to the present day Wolverhampton station (built by the former London & North Western Railway at the time)
15:25 Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury**
16:24 Shrewsbury - Chester
17:31 Chester - Birkenhead Central arr 18:04

* According to the PSUL website, this train will be diverted away from the New North Line (between Old Oak Common and Greenford) to run via Ealing Broadway and West Ealing from the December 2018 timetable change.

** If the 12:34 High Wycombe - Birmingham Moor Street runs to time and arrives BMO ahead of schedule with the unrecognised connection with the 14:49 made, it is possible to pick up the 14:43 Aberystwyth train at Wolverhampton changing at Shrewsbury for the 15:59 ex Cardiff - Holyhead to Chester, then the 16:31 to Birkenhead Central.


Doing this southbound, this would involve an overnight stay in Birmingham.

Birkenhead Central - Chester
Chester - Shrewsbury
Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton
Walk to Wolverhampton St Georges
Midland Metro tram Wolverhampton St Georges - The Hawthorns or Jewellery Quarter
The Hawthorns or Jewellery Quarter - Birmingham Snow Hill
Overnight stay in Birmingham
08:25 Birmingham Moor Street - High Wycombe (08:22 ex Birmingham Snow Hill)
10:20 High Wycombe - South Ruislip
10:57 South Ruislip - London Paddington arr 11:23*

* According to the PSUL website, this train will be diverted away from the New North Line (between Old Oak Common and Greenford) to run via Ealing Broadway and West Ealing from the December 2018 timetable change.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Although it is not possible at this moment in time to re-introduce traditional Intercity services at Birmingham Snow Hill, for information it is possible to do as close as to the original route from London Paddington to Birkenhead (for purposes of this thread being as Birkenhead Woodside is no more, I have used Birkenhead Central as a substitute) in the same day northbound.

11:35 London Paddington - High Wycombe*
12:34 High Wycombe - Birmingham Moor Street
14:09 Birmingham Moor Street - The Hawthorns (also 13:59 BMO if connection made)
Midland Metro tram from The Hawthorns to Wolverhampton St Georges
Walk to the present day Wolverhampton station (built by the former London & North Western Railway at the time)
15:25 Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury**
16:24 Shrewsbury - Chester
17:31 Chester - Birkenhead Central arr 18:04

* According to the PSUL website, this train will be diverted away from the New North Line (between Old Oak Common and Greenford) to run via Ealing Broadway and West Ealing from the December 2018 timetable change.

** If the 12:34 High Wycombe - Birmingham Moor Street runs to time and arrives BMO ahead of schedule with the unrecognised connection with the 14:49 made, it is possible to pick up the 14:43 Aberystwyth train at Wolverhampton changing at Shrewsbury for the 15:59 ex Cardiff - Holyhead to Chester, then the 16:31 to Birkenhead Central.


Doing this southbound, this would involve an overnight stay in Birmingham.

Birkenhead Central - Chester
Chester - Shrewsbury
Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton
Walk to Wolverhampton St Georges
Midland Metro tram Wolverhampton St Georges - The Hawthorns or Jewellery Quarter
The Hawthorns or Jewellery Quarter - Birmingham Snow Hill
Overnight stay in Birmingham
08:25 Birmingham Moor Street - High Wycombe (08:22 ex Birmingham Snow Hill)
10:20 High Wycombe - South Ruislip
10:57 South Ruislip - London Paddington arr 11:23*

* According to the PSUL website, this train will be diverted away from the New North Line (between Old Oak Common and Greenford) to run via Ealing Broadway and West Ealing from the December 2018 timetable change.


Very Interesting. Thanks for the information
 

Aictos

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Calm yourself.

If where I lived (Liverpool) had cross-country services, this would be less of an issue for me, as I'd have to change less. Sometimes I get the chance to cjanhe somewhere else, usually Stafford. However, very often the only way I can get where I'm going is trundling to New Street and changing there.

Yes, Moor Street to New Street is not the Long March, but it is long, unpleasant and inconvenient enough to put people off. Every time you put someone off train travel, you decrease the chance that they will continue using trains.

I'm also struggling to see how any increased capacity will come about from the proposed changes. You're just moving things from one overcrowded station to another slightly less overcrowded one

:rolleyes: :lol:

Moor Street to New Street is long, unpleasant and inconvenient? Are we talking about the same two stations because these two are closer then Glasgow Central to Glasgow Queen Street, Bradford Interchange to Bradford Foster Square in fact they're probably the same distance from Kings Cross Platforms 1 - 8 to St Pancras Int Eurostar/SE High Speed platforms.

Yes every time you put someone off train travel they're less likely to want to repeat the experience but your opinion doesn't match reality, as your words are the last words I use to describe a transfer between the two.

You also neglect that you could have changed at Crewe instead of New Street if need be.

As to the proposed changes, the powers to be obviously have thought this out otherwise they wouldn't have suggested it and so by rerouting a few local services via Moor Street/Snow Hill these paths via New Street can be used for more long distance services as it also opens up new journey opportunities.

It's all about balancing demand and if this is the best way to do it then so be it.
 

B&I

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:rolleyes: :lol:

Moor Street to New Street is long, unpleasant and inconvenient? Are we talking about the same two stations because these two are closer then Glasgow Central to Glasgow Queen Street, Bradford Interchange to Bradford Foster Square in fact they're probably the same distance from Kings Cross Platforms 1 - 8 to St Pancras Int Eurostar/SE High Speed platforms.

Yes every time you put someone off train travel they're less likely to want to repeat the experience but your opinion doesn't match reality, as your words are the last words I use to describe a transfer between the two.

You also neglect that you could have changed at Crewe instead of New Street if need be.

As to the proposed changes, the powers to be obviously have thought this out otherwise they wouldn't have suggested it and so by rerouting a few local services via Moor Street/Snow Hill these paths via New Street can be used for more long distance services as it also opens up new journey opportunities.

It's all about balancing demand and if this is the best way to do it then so be it.


So, because changing trains in Bradford and Glasgow is awkward, it should be made harder in Brum as well ?

If I could have changed at Crewe, I would have done. However, on many occasions I have found that I had to change at New Street.

The powers that be, of course, have never got anything wrong. Where is this abundance of new long-distance services which they promise ? Last time I looked the XC consultation looked had a distinct whiff of treading water about it.
 

Aictos

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So, because changing trains in Bradford and Glasgow is awkward, it should be made harder in Brum as well ?

If I could have changed at Crewe, I would have done. However, on many occasions I have found that I had to change at New Street.

The powers that be, of course, have never got anything wrong. Where is this abundance of new long-distance services which they promise ? Last time I looked the XC consultation looked had a distinct whiff of treading water about it.

Now I understand this is difficult for you to compere but what I am trying to explain is that unlike your view that changing between Moor Street and New Street is so difficult, long, unpleasant and inconvenient, in real life it's actually just as far as the examples I have given if not closer now I don't know why that is so difficult to understand?

Of course, we could just close all three Birmingham stations and have just one station to serve all services in and out of Birmingham which would by your view sound a lot easier however that won't happen for one thing the costs will be too high.

If you really want a example of a long and inconvenient transfer between trains, I suggest you look at Paris and the walk between Paris Nord and Paris Est which is further then any of the examples I have given yet many people cope with that strangely enough...

And at no point did I say it was harder changing trains elsewhere so it ought to be made harder in Birmingham, that is your own immature response, I was simply pointing out why your view is incorrect.

And did I say it would mean a increase of XC services at New Street, no I didn't so do yourself a favour and stop making absurd claims, I said a increase of LONG DISTANCE services and if such plans go ahead it would be up to the TOCs to make the best use of the available capacity not for us to assume it means a specific TOC will.

In fact the Network Rail proposals clearly have benefits and I have highlighted three which show why the proposals ought to go ahead.

1. £2bn of economic benefits unlocking new jobs and supporting economic growth

This is not to be sneezed at as that is certainly good news for both national and local economies.

2. Up to 10 extra trains per hour in and out of Birmingham linking with other towns and cities in the Midlands including Leicester, Nottingham and Tamworth and Burton-on-Trent

This isn't possible at the moment as New Street doesn't have the capacity to offer this.

3. 85,000 extra seats every day

This again is what the majority of passengers want more then anything, a seat on the train.

I've included the link here to the Network Rail proposals.

A major boost to the Midlands economy supported by more trains and better connections between towns, cities and with HS2 is predicted if proposed rail upgrades become a reality.

Midlands Connect predicts that the development of a new Midlands Rail Hub would result in a £2bn economic surge over the next 10 to 30 years.

Network Rail’s West Midlands and Chilterns Route Study, published today (Friday 4 August), has identified a number of improvements which would enable the railway to continue to connect people to jobs and meet future demand for rail travel. This would encourage and support economic growth and maximise access to the new HS2 station at Curzon Street.

In the long term, the study also looks at improving access to London from the Chiltern main line by connecting the route with the new HS2, Crossrail and Great Western main line interchange at Old Oak Common. In the short term, there are plans for a programme of upgrades to stations on the existing route into London Marylebone by 2024 to accommodate longer trains with more seats for passengers.

The Midlands Rail Hub would see a raft of improvements in the Birmingham area. These would allow up to 150 extra trains per day in and out of the city, providing an extra 85,000 seats across the Midlands, and improved connectivity between the East and West Midlands. The hub also provides extra capacity for freight trains to access key terminals in the region, removing lorries from the road network helping to reduce congestion.

An estimated 24 million extra annual passenger journeys are predicted in the Midlands area by 2023, meaning continued investment in the railway is needed to meet future demand.

Martin Frobisher, route managing director for Network Rail, said: “The rail industry has to be ready to meet future demand and ensure that we continue to support economic growth by better linking people with jobs and opportunities in the Midlands region and beyond.

“The impact of HS2 in Britain will be huge and it is vital the existing railway connects with it and the benefits it will deliver. Across the West Midlands and Chilterns, there is much to do to meet predicted demand – this study outlines what improvements we think are needed so that passengers have the railway they need and deserve.

“Our multi-billion pound Railway Upgrade Plan is already delivering better services for passengers and boosting our economy, as highlighted by the redevelopment of Birmingham New Street station and the connection of Oxford Parkway station to the Chiltern main line. The proposals in the West Midlands and Chilterns Route Study will help ensure this success continues long into the future.”

Maria Machancoses, Midlands Connect director said, “The inclusion of so many of our own priorities in Network Rail’s Study confirms that Midlands Connect is the driving force behind positive change and transformational investment in rail and other transport infrastructure. Delivery of these improvements will bring significant economic benefit, not only to the West Midlands and Chilterns but the rest of the Midlands and surrounding areas, given the Midlands’ position as a hub of the national transport network.

“Improved transport connectivity is a key driver in growing our region’s economy, increasing competitiveness and productivity. Business will benefit, as will local people. The improvements identified are ambitious but importantly they are both essential and achievable. We look forward to continuing to work with Government and the rail industry to make them a reality.”

The importance of the Midlands Rail Hub has been recognised with £5m of funding provided by the Department for Transport to develop an outline business case. Upgrades identified as part of the Midlands Rail Hub include:

  • Building the Bordesley Chord which will allow key services to access Moor Street station instead of New Street station and provide the potential for new stations at Moseley, Kings Heath and Hazelwell
  • Bringing additional platforms at Moor Street into use
  • Increasing the number of tracks from two to four through Water Orton to accommodate more passenger and freight services
  • Building platform 4 at Snow Hill station
  • Upgrading Moor Street, Snow Hill and University stations
The benefits these upgrades would deliver include:

  • £2bn of economic benefits unlocking new jobs and supporting economic growth
  • Up to 10 extra trains per hour in and out of Birmingham linking with other towns and cities in the Midlands including Leicester, Nottingham and Tamworth and Burton-on-Trent
  • 85,000 extra seats every day
  • Up to 26,000 lorries off the road every year
Wider improvements identified in the study include:

  • A new connection from the Chiltern main line to the new interchange at Old Oak Common in West London to provide additional capacity and access to HS2, Crossrail and the Great Western main line
  • Additional seats on key commuter routes in the Midlands and an increase in evening and Sunday services
  • Increasing the number of tracks between Leamington Spa and Coventry which will increase capacity and allow better connections between Birmingham Airport, Coventry, the south coast, East Midlands and north east
  • Improved services to Birmingham Airport
  • New junctions at Barnt Green and Water Orton which will allow extra trains to run
  • Longer trains into London Marylebone during peak times by 2024
  • Upgrade of the railway in the Worcester area to improve reliability
  • Using digital technology to provide better information to passengers, extra capacity and more reliable services
Following a 90 day consultation Network Rail and Midlands Connect have committed to bringing in longer trains and longer platforms over the next five years. Work has already started to extend platforms and 137 extra vehicles will be brought into service by 2022 through the new West Midlands Franchise.
 
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