Could Cannon street have a tunnelled exit to free up space at London Bridge?

[Terilyte_]

As far as I am aware, all trains that terminate at Cannon Street stop at London Bridge and so take up space in the station and on the tracks in and out. Would it be feasible to send the trains in a tunnel under the current Thameslink lines and out of London, either joining up with the current line (say, near Lewisham) or continuing to tunnel a new line entirely (Presumably giving an entire set of Southeastern destinations to Cannon Street rather than splitting them between London Termini)?

 

[AlastairFraser]

As far as I am aware, all trains that terminate at Cannon Street stop at London Bridge and so take up space in the station and on the tracks in and out. Would it be feasible to send the trains in a tunnel under the current Thameslink lines and out of London, either joining up with the current line (say, near Lewisham) or continuing to tunnel a new line entirely (Presumably giving an entire set of Southeastern destinations to Cannon Street rather than splitting them between London Termini)?

I don't know how feasible this would be, but tunneling from Cannon St to Moorgate and creating a Second City Crossing for Thameslink trains, a bit like the 2nd City Crossing for trams in Manchester,seems like a good idea. Welcome to the forum by the way.

 

[AM9]

I don't know how feasible this would be, but tunneling from Cannon St to Moorgate and creating a Second City Crossing for Thameslink trains, a bit like the 2nd City Crossing for trams in Manchester,seems like a good idea. Welcome to the forum by the way.

I doubt that it would be possible to find a subterranean path through the City at any depth achievable after passing over the Thames. Apart from the deep foundations of buildings there, it would be necessary to avoid the Central line, Crossrail, the Northern City branch, the Post Office railway, and a host of other service pipes and ducts.
If the main purpose was to release some space at London Bridge, it would be akin to using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Sadly the entire London Bridge programme was a massive missed opportunity; particularly when you consider the future needs of rail passengers. I personally would have opted for the following:
- London Bridge 'High Level' would have had 10 platforms. 4 for Cannon Street, 3 for 'Thameslink' and 3 for Charing Cross. The reason for the 3rd platform on Thameslink and Charing Cross is for peak-direction loading and unloading.
- The Cannon Street lines would be four track from North Kent East / New Cross to Cannon Street in entirety in an Up, Down, Up, Down capacity. Cannon Street, with 8 platforms, would therefore support 32tph with 16tph in each four-platform 'half' aka a 3/4 minute frequency on each pair of lines, creating good resilience. Of the 16tph on the 'North pair', these would operate as 12tph to the Greenwich line at all times creating a high-frequency Metro service and this concession could have been let independently by the Crossrail company with the same rolling stock, a depot at Plumstead and drivers at Abbey Wood operating both Greenwich line and Crossrail services. The other 4tph on this pair would operate towards New Cross and St Johns. The 16tph on the 'South Pair' would operate to a variety of destinations via Lewisham. This would likely be 12tph towards Bexleyheath and 8tph towards Sidcup. This would concentrate drivers to depots at Cannon Street and Dartford / Slade Green on the Metro.
- Crossrail would operate east of Abbey Wood with services from London via Greenwich terminating at Abbey Wood (8tph at peak) but also 4tph operating through.
- The Thameslink services would operate to Kent. This would have meant no need for a Flyover and that all 24tph would have been formed of 12 coaches. These trains would have operated to the likes of Hastings, Tunbridge Wells, Ashford and Grove Park stoppers and such at peak hours.
- The overall service therefore to the Kent area from London Bridge combined would be 56tph.
- Services via New Cross Gate would operate to/from Charing Cross. This would be workable with the new 'Hungerford Bridge' station serving Charing Cross and Waterloo to replace both Charing Cross and Waterloo East. The 24tph on this route at peak times would easily operate into/out of a new 6 platform station with suitable turn-round times for peak resilience. Some Victoria trains would divert including the Gatwick Express; but Metro services would terminate in the 'Low Level' due to the interchange with the Bakerloo extension at New Cross Gate for the West End. Other terminating services at London Bridge would include services via South Bermondsey.
- Services via Elephant & Castle would start/terminate at Blackfriars. This would be up to 8tph; but would be a Metro-only service to Orpington via both Catford and Herne Hill. These trains could be formed of 700s or similar and therefore the Orpington driver depot would operate one traction and not only operate to the Thameslink route via Grove Park but also therefore also diversionary routes to Blackfriars via Catford and Beckenham as part of regular passenger work.
- Slight re-modelling at Herne Hill would enable parallel moves in both directions (currently down trains cannot undertake parallel moves). Services on the Wimbledon Loop etc. would operate either towards London Bridge via Peckham Rye or to Victoria via Herne Hill and Brixton. Cross-platform interchange in both directions would be a sensible option.
- Services to Sevenoaks via Swanley, to Gillingham (etc) via Bromley South, to Dover and Ramsgate via Chatham, to Ashford via Maidstone East and such would work into and out of Victoria and could either operate via Penge East or Catford.
- 4tph from Victoria via Lewisham would continue to be provided with interchange options at Brockley and a new 'combined' station at Brixton. Loughborough Junction would close in favour of a new station at Camberwell and passengers also using the enlarged Brixton.
- In addition, the Bexleyheath line would not 'feed into' the North Kent line at Crayford Creek and instead 4 lines would be provided from Dartford Junction to Crayford Creek enabling extra capacity and 'Loop' services from the Bexleyheath to Sidcup line (and vice versa) not affecting services from the North Kent including Crossrail to Dartford. Dartford station would require a 5th platform to enable increased services.

Overall peak service frequency something along the lines of:
CROSSRAIL
- 2tph from Core to Rainham (Kent)
- 2tph from Core to Maidstone West (semi-fast from Strood to Maidstone)
- 4tph from Core to Gravesend (all stations)
- 4tph from Core to Dartford (terminating)
- 8tph from Cannon Street to Abbey Wood (all stations via Greenwich)
- 2tph from Cannon Street to Strood (via Greenwich)
- 2tph from Cannon Street to Rainham (via Greenwich)

SOUTHEASTERN METRO
- 4tph from Cannon Street to Dartford via Bexleyheath
- 4tph from Cannon Street to Crayford via Bexleyheath
- 4tph from Cannon Street to Barnehurst via Bexleyheath
- 4tph from Cannon Street to Barnehurst via Sidcup
- 4tph from Cannon Street to Dartford via Sidcup
- 4tph from Blackfriars to Orpington via Catford
- 4tph from Blackfriars to Orpington via Penge East

SOUTHEASTERN MAIN LINE
- 2tph from Victoria to Sevenoaks via Swanley
- 4tph from Victoria to Ramsgate / Dover via Chatham
- 2tph from Victoria to Ashford via Maidstone East
- 2tph from Victoria to Maidstone East
- 2tph from Victoria to Gillingham via Longfield

THAMESLINK
- 4tph from Thameslink Core to Hastings
- 4tph from Thameslink Core to Tunbridge Wells
- 4tph from Thameslink Core to Ashford and suitable extensions
- 4tph from Thameslink Core to Sevenoaks via Grove Park
- 4tph from Thameslink Core to Orpington via Grove Park
- 4tph from Thameslink Core to other destinations as required

SOUTHERN / GATWICK EXPRESS MAIN LINE
- 4tph from Charing Cross to Brighton (Gatwick Express)
- 4tph from Charing Cross to Brighton (additional)
- 4tph from Charing Cross to Tattenham Corner (fast)
- 2tph from Charing Cross to Epsom via Norwood Junction
- 2tph from Charing Cross to Reigate / Tonbridge splitting
- 4tph from Charing Cross to Three Bridges / Horsham via Redhill
- 2tph from Charing Cross to Bognor via Horsham
- 2tph from Charing Cross to Eastbourne
(Other services from Victoria)

SOUTHERN METRO
- 2tph from London Bridge to Epsom via Peckham Rye
- 2tph from London Bridge to Wimbledon via Peckham Rye
- 2tph from London Bridge to Beckenham Junction via Peckham Rye
- 2tph from London Bridge to West Croydon via Peckham Rye
- 4tph from London Bridge to Caterham via Sydenham (all stations)
(Other services from Victoria)

 

[edwin_m]

The south end of Cannnon Street station is right on the Thames, and the distance between the Thames and London Bridge is too short to ramp from the current viaduct to an underground level, so this proposal would have to put Cannon Street underground as well. This would be very expensive if it remained as a multi-platform terminus. Gound underground beneath London Bridge would mean finding a way through the various tunnels of the Northern and Jubilee and the station itself, and any link to Moorgate would need to pass through the extremely complicated station at Bank. There would also have to be space to ramp back up to viaduct level somewhere east of London Bridge, which is made more difficult by the several roads and one railway that cross under the viaduct.

 

[PeterC]

I don't know how feasible this would be, but tunneling from Cannon St to Moorgate and creating a Second City Crossing for Thameslink trains, a bit like the 2nd City Crossing for trams in Manchester,seems like a good idea. Welcome to the forum by the way.

Ignoring the sub surface obstructions Cannon Street Station is on a viaduct with one end on the river bank and the other still slightly above ground level facing Cannon Street itself which is a very busy thoroughfare lined with hellishly expensive property.

 

[John Webb]

Re 4-SUB 4732's suggestions - many people Greenwich/Charlton/Woolwich need to go to Charing Cross, not Cannon Street (not all of us worked 'in the City') - why compel a change at London Bridge during the rush-hours - only adds to the confusion!
And what's happened to trains from Woolwich and Charlton via Blackheath and Lewisham?
(From a former Woolwich resident!)

 

[carriageline]

Plus, Borough Market is the bottleneck at Cannon Street. Unless you multi track that, you will always have the same issues

 

[Terilyte_]

The south end of Cannnon Street station is right on the Thames, and the distance between the Thames and London Bridge is too short to ramp from the current viaduct to an underground level, so this proposal would have to put Cannon Street underground as well. This would be very expensive if it remained as a multi-platform terminus. Gound underground beneath London Bridge would mean finding a way through the various tunnels of the Northern and Jubilee and the station itself, and any link to Moorgate would need to pass through the extremely complicated station at Bank. There would also have to be space to ramp back up to viaduct level somewhere east of London Bridge, which is made more difficult by the several roads and one railway that cross under the viaduct.

I was thinking this myself, if you could get the trains underground (possibly though going round the curve westward as you go down before turning south and going over/under the jubilee), could you tunnel a new route entirely and join up further South?

 

[gordonthemoron]

London Bridge is a nice interchange as it is without buggering it up

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Re 4-SUB 4732's suggestions - many people Greenwich/Charlton/Woolwich need to go to Charing Cross, not Cannon Street (not all of us worked 'in the City') - why compel a change at London Bridge during the rush-hours - only adds to the confusion!
And what's happened to trains from Woolwich and Charlton via Blackheath and Lewisham?
(From a former Woolwich resident!)

As a local, one has to say that it is better to have reliable trains into town than it is to have a sprawling mess of stuff that runs at say 16:50, 17:11, 17:36, 17:55 and such. People want a proper turn-up-and-go service and London Bridge interchange is just a cultural change people should accept instead of demanding through journeys to everywhere.

And in personal experience, the actual number of people going from say Woolwich or (now) Erith to Lewisham and Blackheath is very small and could easily change their ‘habits’. Off-peak the trains are also comparatively lightly-used against other trains. A real waste of a path when a 5-minutely service via Greenwich and then using the DLR etc would be vastly better.

 

[Andrew S]

As a local, I'd like regular trains from Abbey Wood to Charing Cross, please. Cannon Street is no use to me. I get that sometimes I may need to change at London Bridge, mainly when travelling home from work after 9pm, but knowing there is normally a direct service is useful.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

As a local, I'd like regular trains from Abbey Wood to Charing Cross, please. Cannon Street is no use to me. I get that sometimes I may need to change at London Bridge, mainly when travelling home from work after 9pm, but knowing there is normally a direct service is useful.

But all of the crossing moves required at Tanners Hill, Lewisham and then to a lesser extent Charlton and Blackheath. As a person who lives on the Bexleyheath even I like using Victoria and Charing Cross trains but accept that eventually something has to give and if that means changing at Lewisham to Denmark Hill / Victoria or at London Bridge to Waterloo / Charing Cross then so be it.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I doubt that it would be possible to find a subterranean path through the City at any depth achievable after passing over the Thames. Apart from the deep foundations of buildings there, it would be necessary to avoid the Central line, Crossrail, the Northern City branch, the Post Office railway, and a host of other service pipes and ducts.
If the main purpose was to release some space at London Bridge, it would be akin to using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

True,just wishful thinking. I think another thread detailing a North West-South East Crossrail 3 is much more viable.

 

[Bald Rick]

As far as I am aware, all trains that terminate at Cannon Street stop at London Bridge and so take up space in the station and on the tracks in and out. Would it be feasible to send the trains in a tunnel under the current Thameslink lines and out of London, either joining up with the current line (say, near Lewisham) or continuing to tunnel a new line entirely (Presumably giving an entire set of Southeastern destinations to Cannon Street rather than splitting them between London Termini)?

What problem are you trying to solve?

Sadly the entire London Bridge programme was a massive missed opportunity; particularly when you consider the future needs of rail passengers....

I haven’t laughed so much in ages. Thanks for that!

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Perhaps my memory is failing with old age, but I seem to recall a silly plan in the late 70's/early 80's to close the line from London Bridge to Cannon Street, replacing it with a travolator.

 

[Daz28]

If we are getting the crayons out, then all we need to do is find a magic way to run a couple of tracks from Cannon Street to Charing Cross via Blackfriars. We can then make London Bridge to Cannon Street one way, three tracks in, Charing Cross to London Bridge one way, four tracks out and all SouthEastern services call at London Bridge, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Charing Cross, Waterloo East and back to London Bridge for the outgoing services. That way all lines serve all stations, everyone is happy and capacity is doubled.

 

[PeterC]

Perhaps my memory is failing with old age, but I seem to recall a silly plan in the late 70's/early 80's to close the line from London Bridge to Cannon Street, replacing it with a travolator.

I think that came out of my crayon box in my teens as well.

 

[edwin_m]

Even if nobody used it, closing Cannon Street would be bad news for the commuters because with fewer terminating platforms available, fewer trains would be able to run into London.

 

[Ianno87]

If we are getting the crayons out, then all we need to do is find a magic way to run a couple of tracks from Cannon Street to Charing Cross via Blackfriars. We can then make London Bridge to Cannon Street one way, three tracks in, Charing Cross to London Bridge one way, four tracks out and all SouthEastern services call at London Bridge, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Charing Cross, Waterloo East and back to London Bridge for the outgoing services. That way all lines serve all stations, everyone is happy and capacity is doubled.

So every homeward bound Cannon Street commuter gets a 15 minute diversion via Charing Cross every evening. That'd be popular...

 

[carriageline]

Plus Thameslink wouldn’t be too fond of the idea! Imagine the chaos at Blackfriars!