Could double decker trains run on HS1?

[Fazaar1889]

It was constructed in the last 20 years so I would expect there to be sufficient height clearance. If do, why doesn't eurostar run double decker trains?

 

[A S Leib]

From a previous similar thread fire safety regulations through the Channel Tunnel and pantograph heights are the main possible issues.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Double deckers would only increase the numbers travelling on each train beyond the level that the terminal facilities at St Pancras and Gare du Nord could cope with - they already struggle.

 

[HST43257]

Double deckers would only increase the numbers travelling on each train beyond the level that the terminal facilities at St Pancras and Gare du Nord could cope with - they already struggle.

I’m not sure we should blame demand in these situations, if we can run more, or larger, trains and there is proper demand to do so, then we upgrade the facilities, not downgrade the railway.

 

[TheGrew]

Honestly, I am not sure it would yield much more capacity. The only in-service double-decker high-speed train I could find is the TGV Duplex. The Duplex seats 508 over 200m (according to Wikipedia), Eurostar trains are 400m long so double this to 1016 seats. When you consider an e320/Class 374 seat 900 (again according to Wikipedia) that is only a little more than 10% increase.

Admittedly the TGV-M is supposed to seat closer to 740 (source) which would give a meaningful uplift but whether this train would be compliant for tunnel usage is another question.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think all the HS services on LGV Nord (from Paris GdN and Brussels Midi) are single deck (Eurostar/Thalys).
The HS1 route and the tunnel could probably cope but the St Pancras station and approaches (UK spec) might not be configurable to allow double deck without modification.
Platform and pantograph heights will be the determining factors.

 

[quantinghome]

I think all the HS services on LGV Nord (from Paris GdN and Brussels Midi) are single deck (Eurostar/Thalys).
The HS1 route and the tunnel could probably cope but the St Pancras station and approaches (UK spec) might not be configurable to allow double deck without modification.
Platform and pantograph heights will be the determining factors.

OuiGo runs on LGV Nord and all their HS stock is double-deck.

St Pancras has the standard european-compatible 760 mm platform height on its international platforms. The entire HS1 line is built to GC gauge apart from the Ashford connecting line. This is why Eurostar can run Velaros.

So yes, double deckers could be used. But the demand will have to increase substantially for them to be needed.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I think all the HS services on LGV Nord (from Paris GdN and Brussels Midi) are single deck (Eurostar/Thalys).
The HS1 route and the tunnel could probably cope but the St Pancras station and approaches (UK spec) might not be configurable to allow double deck without modification.
Platform and pantograph heights will be the determining factors.

The HS1 platforms are all UIC-GC gauge cleared, iirc. The e320s wouldn’t fit a standard UK platform.

 

[mike57]

I think all the HS services on LGV Nord (from Paris GdN and Brussels Midi)

We have been on TGV Duplex units from Lille Europe heading around the south of Paris and then west (to Rennes).

 

[30907]

We have been on TGV Duplex units from Lille Europe heading around the south of Paris and then west (to Rennes).

Loads of Duplexes operate out of Paris GdN, only the two varieties of ES are consistently single deck.,

 

[Fastlane256]

From a previous similar thread fire safety regulations through the Channel Tunnel and pantograph heights are the main possible issues.

You have double decker le shuttle services going through? Surely they are taller than a double decker passenger train?

 

[cle]

Surely it's a better option for shorter platforms off of the HS routes? And aren't 'Evolyn' a potential double decker user?

 

[AlastairFraser]

OuiGo runs on LGV Nord and all their HS stock is double-deck.

St Pancras has the standard european-compatible 760 mm platform height on its international platforms. The entire HS1 line is built to GC gauge apart from the Ashford connecting line. This is why Eurostar can run Velaros.

So yes, double deckers could be used. But the demand will have to increase substantially for them to be needed.

It isn't a question of demand, it's more a question of capacity. There is plenty of demand, otherwise E* wouldn't have to limit it by hiking prices over £100 single.
The main struggle is to get PAF (French Border Force) personnel to relocate to the UK post-Brexit, and also processing all the passengers at St Pancras/Gare du Nord.
Maybe a new operator with double deckers could use secondary stations like Ebbsfleet/Ashford Intl exclusively to reduce costs, provide more cheap fares and make use of spare capacity - similar to Ouigo (SNCF low cost subsidiary) in France.

 

[quantinghome]

It isn't a question of demand, it's more a question of capacity. There is plenty of demand, otherwise E* wouldn't have to limit it by hiking prices over £100 single.
The main struggle is to get PAF (French Border Force) personnel to relocate to the UK post-Brexit, and also processing all the passengers at St Pancras/Gare du Nord.
Maybe a new operator with double deckers could use secondary stations like Ebbsfleet/Ashford Intl exclusively to reduce costs, provide more cheap fares and make use of spare capacity - similar to Ouigo (SNCF low cost subsidiary) in France.

Even before COVID and Brexit when E* fares were sensible, they weren't ordering new double decker trains. I mean, I'd like there to be the demand for it, it would be great to have a DD train every 20 or 30 minutes from London to Paris and further afield.

 

[MarkyT]

You have double decker le shuttle services going through? Surely they are taller than a double decker passenger train?

True but the shuttle trains are confined to the Channel Tunnel and the terminal loop tracks either side. The tunnel railway system was constructed with a loading gauge even larger than typical on the continent specifically to fit these shuttle trains which can't go anywhere else on either side. Pantographs of the smaller continental gauge passenger rolling stock used by Eurostar have to be capable of reaching the extra high contact wires installed in the tunnel and on its approaches to clear the shuttle trains.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Even before COVID and Brexit when E* fares were sensible, they weren't ordering new double decker trains. I mean, I'd like there to be the demand for it, it would be great to have a DD train every 20 or 30 minutes from London to Paris and further afield.

They weren't ordering it because it wouldn't deliver them the same level of return as they can generate now per passenger (essentially they can't sell all the seats on double decker trains at £100+ single.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

True but the shuttle trains are confined to the Channel Tunnel and the terminal loop tracks either side. The tunnel railway system was constructed with a loading gauge even larger than typical on the continent specifically to fit these shuttle trains which can't go anywhere else on either side. Pantographs of the smaller continental gauge passenger rolling stock used by Eurostar have to be capable of reaching the extra high contact wires installed in the tunnel and on its approaches to clear the shuttle trains.

That doesn't explain why the required pantograph height would be a deal-breaker for double-deck stock though. If the issue is with the tunnel there's clearly already a design of pantograph available that can reach the higher wire. A double-deck high-speed set could either have those same pantographs fitted (assuming the power cars would still be single-deck height as per the TGV duplex sets) or could use a more conventional design if the pantographs are mounted on a higher-roofed section. If anything a taller train would be easier to accommodate rather than harder, at least from a pantograph perspective.

 

[SynthD]

You have double decker le shuttle services going through? Surely they are taller than a double decker passenger train?

A previous thread on taking the Shuttle trains further towards London said that the tunnels north of Folkestone were too small. They were probably only made for the intended trains, which also went on the classic network through Victorian tunnels in Kent.

 

[Trainbike46]

That doesn't explain why the required pantograph height would be a deal-breaker for double-deck stock though. If the issue is with the tunnel there's clearly already a design of pantograph available that can reach the higher wire. A double-deck high-speed set could either have those same pantographs fitted (assuming the power cars would still be single-deck height as per the TGV duplex sets) or could use a more conventional design if the pantographs are mounted on a higher-roofed section. If anything a taller train would be easier to accommodate rather than harder, at least from a pantograph perspective.

I think some people have confused the question "Could double-decker High Speed stock designed for the Channel Tunnel/eurostar routes be built?" (To which the answer is yes), with the question "Could existing double-decker high speed stock operate on the Channel Tunnel/eurostar routes?" (to which the answer is not without modifications)

A previous thread on taking the Shuttle trains further towards London said that the tunnels north of Folkestone were too small. They were probably only made for the intended trains, which also went on the classic network through Victorian tunnels in Kent.

HS1 is built to European loading gauge, so too small for the double deck car carriers, which require the special Channel Tunnel loading gauge, but will fit double-deck passenger stock

 

[Austriantrain]

It isn't a question of demand, it's more a question of capacity. There is plenty of demand, otherwise E* wouldn't have to limit it by hiking prices over £100 single.
The main struggle is to get PAF (French Border Force) personnel to relocate to the UK post-Brexit, and also processing all the passengers at St Pancras/Gare du Nord.
Maybe a new operator with double deckers could use secondary stations like Ebbsfleet/Ashford Intl exclusively to reduce costs, provide more cheap fares and make use of spare capacity - similar to Ouigo (SNCF low cost subsidiary) in France.

I am sure plenty of younger French border personnel would jump at the opportunity to live and work a few years in London. As long as you pay them enough…

 

[Snow1964]

That doesn't explain why the required pantograph height would be a deal-breaker for double-deck stock though. If the issue is with the tunnel there's clearly already a design of pantograph available that can reach the higher wire. A double-deck high-speed set could either have those same pantographs fitted (assuming the power cars would still be single-deck height as per the TGV duplex sets) or could use a more conventional design if the pantographs are mounted on a higher-roofed section. If anything a taller train would be easier to accommodate rather than harder, at least from a pantograph perspective.

I vaguely remember from old video that the 373s had a system selector switch (which also set which power supply and signalling), and the channel tunnel one allowed the pantograph to operate at higher contact wire height without tripping the normal overheight detector.

Presumably the class 374 E320s have similar, and I suspect any new generation high speed trains could have this option too.

There were 89 TGV duplex sets numbered 2xx plus 19 units in 6xx series that swapped power cars with single deck sets, then 55 DAYSE (multi system units numbered 7xx). Then 122 units of Euroduplex, or Oceane (93 sets numbered 8xx and 30 multi voltage). The new AGV M (horizon) on order are 100 sets for SNCF (dual voltage) and 15 quad voltage sets, there are also unexercised options. So will be almost 400 double deck sets

 

[RobShipway]

You have to remember that within Europe mostly France, Germany and Switzerland the double deck trains are Inter-City trains within those countries for the most part. There is very few double deck trains being used on fast services either within those countries or country to country.

The reason why the double deck trains are not used, is that I believe in many places on any of the new fast lines built over the last 20 plus years, there is possible not the room for double deck trains to go through any tunnels, where as on the European classic lines, the tunnel entrances where pretty much built at twice the height almost as any of the tunnels in the UK.

Maybe a new operator with double deckers could use secondary stations like Ebbsfleet/Ashford Intl exclusively to reduce costs, provide more cheap fares and make use of spare capacity - similar to Ouigo (SNCF low cost subsidiary) in France.

The only way I see this happening would be as a shuttle service on HS1 between St Pancras - Ebbsfleet - Ashford to possibly Folkstone West if possible. But is there a need for that?

 

[AlastairFraser]

The only way I see this happening would be as a shuttle service on HS1 between St Pancras - Ebbsfleet - Ashford to possibly Folkstone West if possible. But is there a need for that?

Why? The tunnel has spare paths.
And there isn't spare border control capacity at StP. Ebbsfleet isn't a bad terminal to access for South London, and a good chunk of the South East.
Plenty of parking, easy access off the M25 using the A2, border infrastructure already set up I believe, decent public transport to the station....
If Mobico chose to price it sensibly, they'd fill the trains easily.
Edit: to further my case, I've noted there are 11 Flixbuses departing Vic Coach Station crossing the Channel today (!).
And 27 flights (11 EasyJet, 3 Vueling, 5 AirFrance, 8 BA) from London airports to CDG or Orly today!
So there definitely is a market to abstract from and relieve suppressed demand on top.

 

[edwin_m]

The reason why the double deck trains are not used, is that I believe in many places on any of the new fast lines built over the last 20 plus years, there is possible not the room for double deck trains to go through any tunnels, where as on the European classic lines, the tunnel entrances where pretty much built at twice the height almost as any of the tunnels in the UK.

Not sure what you're saying here. Simplifying the actual situation somewhat, the HS lines have been built to a gauge similar to that of the existing Continental network so its bridges and tunnels are large enough for any stock that can run on the existing network (although there are various other reasons that may prevent it using those lines in practice). This includes double deck stock, which runs many times a day on the high speed routes in France and some neighbouring countries. HS1 is to the same dimensions as those Continental routes and the Channel Tunnel is even bigger.

 

[Bartsimho]

Would love for there to be Open Access routes through the Tunnel although they would have to probably have a minimum capacity to ensure not too much of the tunnel is wasted. Although that would probably only be possible with shuffle style border controls. But if you did that it could be a booming market

 

[Trainbike46]

You have to remember that within Europe mostly France, Germany and Switzerland the double deck trains are Inter-City trains within those countries for the most part. There is very few double deck trains being used on fast services either within those countries or country to country.

The reason why the double deck trains are not used, is that I believe in many places on any of the new fast lines built over the last 20 plus years, there is possible not the room for double deck trains to go through any tunnels, where as on the European classic lines, the tunnel entrances where pretty much built at twice the height almost as any of the tunnels in the UK.


The only way I see this happening would be as a shuttle service on HS1 between St Pancras - Ebbsfleet - Ashford to possibly Folkstone West if possible. But is there a need for that?

you seem somewhat confused. France has loads of double-decker high-speed trains (TGV Duplex), and those run into various neigbouring countries (Definitely Belgium, Germany and Switzerland). The loading gauge certainly hasn't been reduced, so the suggestion that new lines can't fit double-deckers is not true

 

[mike57]

It isn't a question of demand, it's more a question of capacity. There is plenty of demand, otherwise E* wouldn't have to limit it by hiking prices over £100 single.
The main struggle is to get PAF (French Border Force) personnel to relocate to the UK post-Brexit, and also processing all the passengers at St Pancras/Gare du Nord.
Maybe a new operator with double deckers could use secondary stations like Ebbsfleet/Ashford Intl exclusively to reduce costs, provide more cheap fares and make use of spare capacity - similar to Ouigo (SNCF low cost subsidiary) in France.

I agree that currently the limit is capacity at St Pancras, so there is no incentive to Eurostar to reduce fares, as a commercial operation they are going to raise fares to the point where supply of seats balances demand, and to do anything else would mean the shareholders are not getting the best value.

So assuming you are going to try and create a lower cost but slower or less convenient option then that leaves Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford at the UK side, you are only going staff up one terminal, and I think the choice would be between Stratford or Ebbsfleet. Where would you finish on the the other side of the channel, onward connections from Calais are pretty poor, but Lille Europe has good connections to the South and west of France. The border facilities at Lille dont appear to be used at anything like capacity. I dont know if there is anywhere to park trains while they turnaround, there are only 4 platforms and I am going to assume that infrastructure upgrades are probably not going to be cost effective.

So it comes down to cost v convenience, for a lot of people London - Paris centre to centre is the journey, and Eurostar provides this at a price. You then have journeys finishing elsewhere in France, but I suspect these are a small percentage of overall travellers, with the Marne-le-Vallee Chessy for Disneyland being one of the more popular destinatations which is an hour from Lille.

So if you could provide 700-1000 seats an hour over a low cost route where would fares need to be pitched to fill them?

My own view, I think the demand is there, but I am not sure if it would be profitable for the operator.

 

[30907]

Lille Europe has good connections to the South and west of France. The border facilities at Lille dont appear to be used at anything like capacity.

Capacity in the departure lounge is soon reached though, from experience - nowhere near enough space to manage a full train. ISTR the Lille Shuffle was limited to half a 373-load. The concourse itself is huge and could probably be rebuilt if the start-up paid for it. The same capacity issue would apply at the UK station(s) of course.

I dont know if there is anywhere to park trains while they turnaround, there are only 4 platforms and I am going to assume that infrastructure upgrades are probably not going to be cost effective

There is a TGV depot at Fives just outside the station which can be accessed from the station, so that's manageable (if SNCF play ball).

 

[AlastairFraser]

I agree that currently the limit is capacity at St Pancras, so there is no incentive to Eurostar to reduce fares, as a commercial operation they are going to raise fares to the point where supply of seats balances demand, and to do anything else would mean the shareholders are not getting the best value.

So assuming you are going to try and create a lower cost but slower or less convenient option then that leaves Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford at the UK side, you are only going staff up one terminal, and I think the choice would be between Stratford or Ebbsfleet. Where would you finish on the the other side of the channel, onward connections from Calais are pretty poor, but Lille Europe has good connections to the South and west of France. The border facilities at Lille dont appear to be used at anything like capacity. I dont know if there is anywhere to park trains while they turnaround, there are only 4 platforms and I am going to assume that infrastructure upgrades are probably not going to be cost effective.

So it comes down to cost v convenience, for a lot of people London - Paris centre to centre is the journey, and Eurostar provides this at a price. You then have journeys finishing elsewhere in France, but I suspect these are a small percentage of overall travellers, with the Marne-le-Vallee Chessy for Disneyland being one of the more popular destinatations which is an hour from Lille.

So if you could provide 700-1000 seats an hour over a low cost route where would fares need to be pitched to fill them?

My own view, I think the demand is there, but I am not sure if it would be profitable for the operator.

Stratford would be a bit silly, Ebbsfleet is much better placed (especially when you consider the new operator aiming to start services is owned by the same family as National Express, so motorway proximity for coach connections is wise) and it's going to be easier to turn back at Ebbsfleet.
Ebbsfleet also has the significant advantage of a more recent international service and staff costs will be lower, because of the lack of London weighting.

If I was planning a 2tph initial service, I'd stop at Calais (set down only to satisfy the UK authorities) and then Lille (for French connections), followed by 1tph non-stop from there to Brussels-Midi, and 1tph to Amsterdam, stopping at Brussels-Midi (or Rotterdam if Amsterdam isn't available for a while as has been mentioned here before).

You could start about £20 singles for early bird adult fares London to Lille and £30 London to Brussels/Amsterdam, but use yield management software like low cost airlines.

Even with an average fare of £35, services 2tph for 1016 seats max an hour (let's say 900 filled on average), 15hrs of operation a day. That is £472,000 a day, approx. £3.3 million a week and (assuming 350 days of normal operation)approx. £165.3 million revenue a year.
Depending on your staff costs, you could make it work.

 

[mike57]

Stratford would be a bit silly, Ebbsfleet is much better placed (especially when you consider the new operator aiming to start services is owned by the same family as National Express, so motorway proximity for coach connections is wise) and it's going to be easier to turn back at Ebbsfleet.
Ebbsfleet also has the significant advantage of a more recent international service and staff costs will be lower, because of the lack of London weighting.

If I was planning a 2tph initial service, I'd stop at Calais (set down only to satisfy the UK authorities) and then Lille (for French connections), followed by 1tph non-stop from there to Brussels-Midi, and 1tph to Amsterdam, stopping at Brussels-Midi (or Rotterdam if Amsterdam isn't available for a while as has been mentioned here before).

You could start about £20 singles for early bird adult fares London to Lille and £30 London to Brussels/Amsterdam, but use yield management software like low cost airlines.

Even with an average fare of £35, services 2tph for 1016 seats max an hour (let's say 900 filled on average), 15hrs of operation a day. That is £472,000 a day, approx. £3.3 million a week and (assuming 350 days of normal operation)approx. £165.3 million revenue a year.
Depending on your staff costs, you could make it work.

Interesting proposals. the only bit I cant see working at all is Calais to set down, the lack of return journeys will put people off, and SNCF services from Calais are quite sparse. Amsterdam or Rotterdam may be an eventual aim, but as a start-up probably best to stick to Brussels. Bearing in mind there is a frequent direct service from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet so it could offer a practical lower cost alternative to budget conscious travellers. Maybe a partnership with Ouigo on the French side to offer journeys beyond Northern France.

Would Eurostar try and compete or just rely on travellers who want direct London - Brussles or Paris and are prepared to pay a premium for it. My view is there is room in the market for both types of operation. Lumo on the ECML have proved this.

What I find amusing is that growing up in the 60s during that period going by train to the near continent was usually cheaper, flying was a lot more expensive, its gone full circle with train being more expensive.