Could Dual Mode Vehicles be implemented in the UK?

[Mgameing123]

So if you don't know. Japan started running DMV's which pretty much are buses than can both run on the road and on rail. So I thought could the UK maybe implement this perhaps on rural branch lines to connect small villages with the rest of the railway network?

 

[edwin_m]

What's the benefit of doing this compared with just running a bus on the road? You have all the extra equipment cost, and unless the vehicle runs somewhere very congested, it's unlikely the time saving of using the railway will outweigh the extra time spent transferring to and from the road. And accessing somewhere with congested roads probably means using a busy section of railway, where you wouldn't want to use up a train path carrying only a busload of people.

 

[Topological]

Presumably this applies in places where there is a railway into the main town which needs to be a railway but does not have an intensive service. In that way the DMV slots in between the actual trains.

It is hard to immediately think of locations, but probably there are some.

The alternative would be passengers transferring to a proper train at the nearest station, so maybe there is a further search to identify suitable freight only lines that themselves do not pass through areas to justify a passenger service.

One thought - Stocksbridge into Sheffield. The bus element could help in Sheffield itself and at the Stocksbridge end?

 

[stuu]

I saw a YouTube video about that, looks like a solution looking for a problem to me

 

[CharlieSpotted]

An obvious (I think?) application that springs to mind here is the Stourbridge shuttle. From Stourbridge Junction use the existing branch line in "rail mode" to get to Stourbridge Town... where the platform is already basically right next to the bus station... switch to bus mode and off around the town.

That said, there's nothing at all wrong with the current solution, and I do love the little 139s.

 

[zwk500]

One thought - Stocksbridge into Sheffield. The bus element could help in Sheffield itself and at the Stocksbridge end?

One problem would be getting on and off the railway in Sheffield itself. Or if you stay on, taking up valuable line capacity with a small bus roughly half the capacity of a Diesel Railcar.

A bigger problem that occurs to me is that UK rail Platforms are 915mm above rail level, which is rather a big difference from a standard bus stop. So either we are building massive platforms in town centres for these DMVs, or they'll be running on stilts on the railway which is hardly going to be very stable.

 

[Topological]

One problem would be getting on and off the railway in Sheffield itself. Or if you stay on, taking up valuable line capacity with a small bus roughly half the capacity of a Diesel Railcar.

A bigger problem that occurs to me is that UK rail Platforms are 915mm above rail level, which is rather a big difference from a standard bus stop. So either we are building massive platforms in town centres for these DMVs, or they'll be running on stilts on the railway which is hardly going to be very stable.

Fair points

I was thinking of the old Victoria site where the ramp exists to access the hotel? Probably not the optimum location, but is before the interaction with more regular trains comes. It was more about thinking of an example of a line that could work though.

I also assume we are looking at a vehicle with three exits, one on each side for any stations (of which there may be none if the vehicle doesn't actually serve an existing station (new stations could be lower platform if they are on a freight line and not used by normal trains), and one on the pavement side which is at the usual bus level. I suspect the capacity on such vehicles would not be so constrained that having an extra door relative to single mode would be problematic.

 

[Mgameing123]

One problem would be getting on and off the railway in Sheffield itself. Or if you stay on, taking up valuable line capacity with a small bus roughly half the capacity of a Diesel Railcar.

A bigger problem that occurs to me is that UK rail Platforms are 915mm above rail level, which is rather a big difference from a standard bus stop. So either we are building massive platforms in town centres for these DMVs, or they'll be running on stilts on the railway which is hardly going to be very stable.

I think the technology can be made without using a minibus.

 

[zwk500]

I was thinking of the old Victoria site where the ramp exists to access the hotel? Probably not the optimum location, but is before the interaction with more regular trains comes. It was more about thinking of an example of a line that could work though.

Although that site makes running along the railway and the associated transitions eat into the competitiveness against just running on the road.

I also assume we are looking at a vehicle with three exits, one on each side for any stations (of which there may be none if the vehicle doesn't actually serve an existing station (new stations could be lower platform if they are on a freight line and not used by normal trains), and one on the pavement side which is at the usual bus level. I suspect the capacity on such vehicles would not be so constrained that having an extra door relative to single mode would be problematic.

I suspect accessibility regulations will have a much bigger impact. The rail doors would need to be at a level not dissimilar to a conventional long-distance road coach (I'd guess about 3/4 of the height, maybe a little less). Having a vehicle that meets the requirements for accessibility with that level of floor difference will be very hard to produce with any meaningful seating capacity for mass transit use.

I think the technology can be made without using a minibus.

I'm sure it can, but the bus has also to fit on the roads of the towns it's meant to serve. If we are talking about a town like Stocksbridge, it's not going to be much larger than a standard single decker bus. Once you have fitted all the relevant dual-mode equipment (including safety systems if its running onto areas with proper signalling) and accounted for the different floor levels, there's not going to be much room left.

 

[Bald Rick]

We’ve been using a technology called ‘Airbus‘ since 1974. ’Skytrain’ was not so successful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Skytrain was the forerunner of low cost airlines - a concept that has been VERY successful!

In all seriousness though, high quality connections between buses and rail are a better solution to this problem.

 

[Irascible]

We've been running road-rail vehicles for decades, a lot of on track plant uses the tech. Only place I can really think of is Gunnislake, which still has a railway because the roads are terrible but then goes around Plymouth rather than more into it. But I've no idea if a bus would be enough anyway. Plugging the line into a Plymouth tram would be better, but magnitudes more expensive...

Concorde was the immediate precursor to Airbus, that wasn't quite so successful either

 

[randyrippley]

It would be useful on the Conway valley line. Finally close the collapsing tunnels, just drive around them instead

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Could see a use for this perhaps on the Cambrian Coast, where being able to use Barmouth Bridge, then divert off into some of the towns/villages inland not served by the railway, might offer a significant time saving over the road-only route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be useful on the Conway valley line. Finally close the collapsing tunnels, just drive around them instead

There's one main tunnel and it isn't collapsing. But if it did, you'd just truncate the line to Betws and run a bus connection.

 

[superalbs]

To be honest, it's a gimmick mostly used to attract tourists, they even have a merch shop at one end. However, it is VERY fun to use.

I've added a few images of the vehicles they use for people who haven't already seen them. It's basically a Toyota Coaster (minibus), with an extended nose that houses metal flanged wheels.

 

[randyrippley]

There's one main tunnel and it isn't collapsing. But if it did, you'd just truncate the line to Betws and run a bus connection.

but that's the point: why have two connecting vehicles when one could do the job all the way through?

 

[zwk500]

but that's the point: why have two connecting vehicles when one could do the job all the way through?

IN that case, why not just run a bus from Llandudno or Llandudno Junction on the road?

 

[Bletchleyite]

but that's the point: why have two connecting vehicles when one could do the job all the way through?

Because rail is higher quality and higher capacity than bus. With the 197s in use the line is getting very popular, but mainly busy north of Betws - south thereof is much less touristy.

A dual mode vehicle is just a bus, it has almost none of the advantages of rail.

 

[DelW]

The LMS tried one out in the 1930s - I remember reading about it in a Locospotters' Annual article in the early 1960s.

Contemporary article here:

The Karrier Ro -Railer | 3rd May 1932 | The Commercial Motor Archive

'The Karrier Ro -Railer' first printed in the 3rd May 1932 issue of Commercial Motor

archive.commercialmotor.com

At the beginning of 1931 the London, Midland and Scottish Railway Co. after much experimental work carried out in conjunction with Karrier Motors, Ltd., Huddersfield, held demonstrations of a vehicle called the Ro-Railer, which was virtually a motor coach capable of travelling either on the road or on the railway track ; the machine was described in our issue dated February 3rd, 1931.

As announced briefly in our issue for last week, a road-service licence has been obtained for operation between the Welcombe Hotel, Stratford-on-Avon, which is one of the L.M.S. hotels, and Blisworth Station, on the main line from Euston to Holyhead, Glasgow, etc.

The service commenced last Saturday week, and will operate once daily in each direction until further notice. Ten minutes are ellowed for converting the four wheels for operation on the rails. The journey comprises about one mile on the road and something like 30 miles on the rail.

 

[Mgameing123]

Because rail is higher quality and higher capacity than bus. With the 197s in use the line is getting very popular, but mainly busy north of Betws - south thereof is much less touristy.

A dual mode vehicle is just a bus, it has almost none of the advantages of rail.

The rail section on the DMV I suspect will be more comfortable than on the roads. I was just thinking if this could work as a way to improve rail services to low demand small towns without actually needing to build a railway.