Could Fiddlers ferry line be put to possible reuse as part of HS3? Or perhaps some other use?

[warwickshire]

Yesterday a article appeared in the warrington guardian 10th March regarding the closure of fiddlers ferry power station and the possible reuse for high speed 3 i.e. HS3.

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.u...s-ferry-close-end-month---rail-line-used-hs3/

“No decision has been made on the long-term future of the site. Following the closure of the station, a decommissioning programme will commence, which is expected to take a number of years to complete.”

The proposed high-speed railway known as High Speed North, or HS3, aims to transform rail services and make it easier to travel between the region’s towns and cities via new and upgraded lines.

Council chief executive Steven Broomhead confirmed the Labour-run authority continues to have regular discussions with SSE over the land but says the demolition will be complicated.

“There’s a railway line which, potentially, could be the railway line for HS3, Northern Powerhouse Rail – we want to make sure that railway line remains in place,” he said.

What other uses the line be used for, i.e. freight or any passenger use maybe ? Such as warrington arpley to Ditton, freight line via the power station at fiddlers ferry.

 

[BigB]

The link to the article in the Warrington Guardian is below.

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.u...s-ferry-close-end-month---rail-line-used-hs3/

However there is also call for the area to be housing, and the two do not go together...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They have also announced the closure of the Unilever soap works at Warrington Bank Quay.
This used to be a major railway customer, all done by road now.
They make Persil and Surf powders there now, but demand is declining because we all apparently use gels and concentrated capsules.
Originally established by Joseph Crosfield ("Joe Soap") over 200 years ago in 1814.
It will change the laundry aroma around Warrington Bank Quay station, and possibly the scenery if they knock the works down.
It's a complex site with all sorts of pipes and feeders carrying the raw materials, some over the railway.
The low level line (to Ditton via Fiddlers Ferry and Widnes) ran right through the middle of the factory site, with sidings from both lines into the works.

This is the Unilever piece: https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/18294842.unilever-confirms-will-close-warrington-factory/

UNILEVER has confirmed that it is planning to shut its Warrington factory.
The company announced in January that it was ‘undertaking a review of its future’ at the Crosfields site, where it manufactures its Persil and Surf washing powders.
And it has been confirmed today, Tuesday, that the historic factory will be closing after more than 130 years - subject to further consultations.

And this is the piece on Fiddlers Ferry and HS3: https://www.warringtonguardian.co.u...s-ferry-close-end-month---rail-line-used-hs3/

A RAILWAY line at Fiddlers Ferry could be used for the proposed HS3 scheme.
The power station, off Widnes Road, will cease production and close by March 31.
Warrington Borough Council has been in discussions with site owner Scottish and Southern Energy (SSE) about the future of the land.
(snip)
Council chief executive Steven Broomhead confirmed the Labour-run authority continues to have regular discussions with SSE over the land but says the demolition will be complicated.
“There’s a railway line which, potentially, could be the railway line for HS3, Northern Powerhouse Rail – we want to make sure that railway line remains in place,” he said.
“At the moment, the site is designated as an employment site, that is what the dialogue continues to be about.
“But it could be a site for producing energy, it has got a connection to the National Grid

I don't think the HS3 reference is any more than speculation, though Warrington BC must know a new high speed route to Liverpool has to pass near the town somewhere.

 

[D365]

Just for the sake of clarity: in this instance, is HS3 simply an alternative name for Northern Powerhouse Rail?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just for the sake of clarity: in this instance, is HS3 simply an alternative name for Northern Powerhouse Rail?

Yes it is.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Just for the sake of clarity: in this instance, is HS3 simply an alternative name for Northern Powerhouse Rail?

Or after the budget today the Manchester-Leeds high speed line, read into that what you will!

 

[Meerkat]

The line would be a decent route for NPR/HS2, serving Warrington and Widnes/Runcorn.
Closure of the soap plant would make room for more platforms at Bank Quay wouldnt it?

 

[kevin_roche]

They have also announced the closure of the Unilever soap works at Warrington Bank Quay.
This used to be a major railway customer, all done by road now.
They make Persil and Surf powders there now, but demand is declining because we all apparently use gels and concentrated capsules.
Originally established by Joseph Crosfield ("Joe Soap") over 200 years ago in 1814.
It will change the laundry aroma around Warrington Bank Quay station, and possibly the scenery if they knock the works down.

When I lived it Warrington in the 1970s there was never a need to add washing powder to my wash, just enough to collect the soap on your clothes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The line would be a decent route for NPR/HS2, serving Warrington and Widnes/Runcorn.
Closure of the soap plant would make room for more platforms at Bank Quay wouldnt it?

The existing line dog-legs through Warrington and Widnes, and is not remotely engineered for high speed.
Reaching it from the planned HS2 junctions east of Lymm would be challenging, too.
The old track bed through Lymm is now part of the Trans Pennine Trail, and is hemmed in by development and blocked in parts.
A route running north or south of Warrington is more likely.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Sorry to hear of the closure of Joseph Crosfield. I was a TOPS clerk at Arpley in the 1970s and we had regular deliveries of sand in HKVs from Redhill and sodium tripolyphosphate in prestwins from Corkickle. Some output was loaded at their low-level siding, mostly exports in 2-axle ferryvans.

 

[Meerkat]

The existing line dog-legs through Warrington and Widnes, and is not remotely engineered for high speed.
Reaching it from the planned HS2 junctions east of Lymm would be challenging, too.
The old track bed through Lymm is now part of the Trans Pennine Trail, and is hemmed in by development and blocked in parts.
A route running north or south of Warrington is more likely.

I was envisioning it might need some straightening out and removal of LCs but also that all trains would stop at least at Warrington and probably Widnes (for Runcorn) so it didn’t need to be high speed at those points. Also not necessarily going on through Lymm - just using the Warrington-Widnes corridor.
Where is the end of the currently fixed route - ie the starting point for the Liverpool leg?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HS2 Ltd has proposed junctions on HS2 around Millington/Rostherne (roughly where the Manchester branch separates from the Golborne route to the WCML).
That's close to where the A556 crosses the M56.
So a new line would probably need to follow the M56 alignment south of Warrington, or possibly head for the M62 north of Warrington.
The southern alignment might cross the Mersey around Fiddlers Ferry.
The old "straight line" CLC by-pass alignment through Warrington, crossing the WCML at Dallam, has been lost in recent years.
There's been huge development north and south of Warrington lately.
Widnes might be a bit easier, as there's still a lot of industrial land available.
But there must be a question mark about any intermediate stations, if there are none being built between London and Birmingham.
Maybe a park and ride around Fiddlers Ferry, or around Winwick if they take a northern route.
Otherwise, the new route will be no faster than the old ones.

 

[MarkyT]

I was envisioning it might need some straightening out and removal of LCs but also that all trains would stop at least at Warrington and probably Widnes (for Runcorn) so it didn’t need to be high speed at those points. Also not necessarily going on through Lymm - just using the Warrington-Widnes corridor.
Where is the end of the currently fixed route - ie the starting point for the Liverpool leg?

Once out of Warrington urban area to the east, around Grappenhall, you'd strike out on a new alignment roughly following the M56 corridor towards the airport for the HS2 connection and Manchester.
Around Bank Quay, perhaps something like this:

Plenty of space remaining on the old factory site for residential and commercial development, as at Fiddlers Ferry. Could be served by a new western bypass road crossing the new station site so new railway traffic doesn't snarl the town. At the east end of the new station a pedestrian connection to the existing high-level station would be provided for interchange and town centre access. Removal of old low level railway alignment through Sankey Bridges could provide new active travel corridor or busway opportunity. Best of both worlds: reasonably close to existing town centre for pedestrian access and other public transport connections, while also being a good parkway for those accessing by car. Much better than any notional greenfield site north of Warrington with limited opportunity for public transport connections. As you state all trains (both HS2 and NPR) would be slowing down for or pulling away from a stop at Warrington so a curvature limit (within reason) shouldn't be a problem. Note alignment is indicative only.

 

[edwin_m]

Note alignment is indicative only.

I was staring at a map earlier and expecting someone like you to come back with something like that! I agree with your interpretation that to avoid the housing, level crossings and tight curves you have to diverge from the existing route quite a long way west of Warrington.

One minor issue is the listed transporter bridge, one end of which is obliterated by your station site.

 

[Bradway]

Fiddlers Ferry due to be decommissioned over the two years post 2020 shutdown.

Then demolition thro' 2023.

Then a new SMR reactor to be built there as the first or second demo unit in the UK (Trawsffyndd in Wales is the other lead site).

Warrington has a big nuclear industry population, the highest concentration outside Sellafield in the UK.

River Mersey provides a load of cooling (hence Fiddlers).

If you read the Warrington press you'll see the to/fro' dance the Council do re housing / industry / offices / science park on the Fiddlers site to keep the yokels local in the dark. "Science park" will be the planning application eventually. The science will be the Rolls Royce SMR reactor design. Their [RR} head office for civil nuclear is eight miles away in the Warrington suburb of Birchwood.

Should have been announced in the budget. Oh, and with the high tides, the line floods near Warrington Bridge Foot so I don't think this will ever be anything other than a rusty siding.

 

[Edders23]

Is the fiddlers ferry site not on a bit of land jutting out into the Mersey with lots of urban area inland so unless using loads of expensive bridges and viaducts I fail to see how useful a site it would be

there must be easier routes into Liverpool surely

 

[MarkyT]

One minor issue is the listed transporter bridge, one end of which is obliterated by your station site.

I didn't know about that, but have just read up about this fascinating internal facility of the soap factory, closed and out of use since 1964. Perhaps restoration of the structure could be incorporated within the station development as a feature celebrating the industrial heritage of the town!

Fiddlers Ferry due to be decommissioned...Oh, and with the high tides, the line floods near Warrington Bridge Foot so I don't think this will ever be anything other than a rusty siding.

Interesting comment thanks. As to flooding I note the line is only a very few metres above the river there so perhaps a better option would be for the new alignment heading west to remain at a higher level from the Latchford area as it descends from the ship canal bridge, and fly OVER the WCML at Bank Quay.

Is the fiddlers ferry site not on a bit of land jutting out into the Mersey with lots of urban area inland so unless using loads of expensive bridges and viaducts I fail to see how useful a site it would be there must be easier routes into Liverpool surely

A new NPR alignment through the Fiddlers Ferry area ideally, then taking over one pair of the current route via Allerton from Widnes to somewhere near Edge Hill for a new tunnelled approach to new HS terminal platforms 'somewhere in Liverpool city centre'. The main advantages are the existing corridor from Widnes and through south east Warrington, paucity of residential areas between Warrington and Widnes, and the brownfield regeneration possibilities.

 

[edwin_m]

Is the fiddlers ferry site not on a bit of land jutting out into the Mersey with lots of urban area inland so unless using loads of expensive bridges and viaducts I fail to see how useful a site it would be

there must be easier routes into Liverpool surely

Take a look at a map. The line through Fiddlers Ferry is nearly straight and not built up. Going west there is a kink near Widnes which could possibly be straightened out although it looks like they might be building an industrial estate just where you'd want to put the track. East towards Warrington is more difficult as per previous post - looks like it would have to go through a sewage works to avoid the built-up area without tight curves.

 

[PartyOperator]

Fiddlers Ferry due to be decommissioned over the two years post 2020 shutdown.

Then demolition thro' 2023.

Then a new SMR reactor to be built there as the first or second demo unit in the UK (Trawsffyndd in Wales is the other lead site).

Warrington has a big nuclear industry population, the highest concentration outside Sellafield in the UK.

If Warrington is anywhere near the top of the list of sites for a new SMR, I'd be incredibly surprised. If one gets built at all (which itself is far from certain), Hartlepool, Heysham and Sellafield are much more likely sites. I'm sure plenty of people in Warrington would be involved, but the reactor itself wouldn't be built there.

 

[MarkyT]

Take a look at a map. The line through Fiddlers Ferry is nearly straight and not built up. Going west there is a kink near Widnes which could possibly be straightened out although it looks like they might be building an industrial estate just where you'd want to put the track. East towards Warrington is more difficult as per previous post - looks like it would have to go through a sewage works to avoid the built-up area without tight curves.

With my revised high-level suggestion, the alignment might be able to 'step over' the sewage works on a bridge, perhaps with a well-placed support pillar or two within the facility boundary to avoid complete relocation.

 

[Bevan Price]

Fiddlers Ferry due to be decommissioned over the two years post 2020 shutdown.

Then demolition thro' 2023.

Then a new SMR reactor to be built there as the first or second demo unit in the UK (Trawsffyndd in Wales is the other lead site).

Warrington has a big nuclear industry population, the highest concentration outside Sellafield in the UK.

River Mersey provides a load of cooling (hence Fiddlers).

If you read the Warrington press you'll see the to/fro' dance the Council do re housing / industry / offices / science park on the Fiddlers site to keep the yokels local in the dark. "Science park" will be the planning application eventually. The science will be the Rolls Royce SMR reactor design. Their [RR} head office for civil nuclear is eight miles away in the Warrington suburb of Birchwood.

.

There is no actual radioactive material at Risley (Birchwood). The work there is primarily for design and (structural) materials assessment.

 

[HSTEd]

Then a new SMR reactor to be built there as the first or second demo unit in the UK (Trawsffyndd in Wales is the other lead site).

Warrington has a big nuclear industry population, the highest concentration outside Sellafield in the UK.

The SMR project seems extremely unlikely to happen.
Most of the people I talk to in the nuclear field believe that none of the vendors are really anywhere near having a workable design for a commercial power station.


On the subject of the Warrington station - is it actually necessary for a new station to be built?
You could build a short section of tunnel under what usd to be the Warrington Central avoiding line and then any trains that want to stop could do so at Warrington Central.

If the station has to be extended to allow 400m trains to call there this is not a catastrophic issue. Gauntlet track could even be provided if neccesary to allow GC gauge stock to call there if desired.

 

[PG]

And this is the piece on Fiddlers Ferry and HS3:

I had to laugh at the council chief executive talking about a power station site and saying "But it could be a site for producing energy, it has got a connection to the National Grid"
Who'd have thought, a power station with a connection to the grid...

 

[Meerkat]

The line would be higher speed but not HIGH speed (with much gain from it being a dedicated express line) and for NPR as well as HS2.
Therefore i can’t see it not having Warrington and Widnes stations and think curvature, particularly by the stations, isn’t a critical issue.
This means I think it can broadly use the old line from the East edge of Warrington urban area to the west edge of Widnes with a station across the peninsular to the East of Bank Quay.
The LCs are closed with redevelopment and bridges in more appropriate places.
Widnes (for Runcorn) station could either be to the Southeast or Southwest of Widnes, both sites having good access to the road system to act as a Parkway.
You could always extend the City line south of Parkway in a loop via the airport and Speke to the Widnes NPR station.

 

[Gareth]

What time advantage for London/Birmingham would such a line have over the existing alignment? If it ends up merely joining the existing line at Widnes and has to serve Widnes as well as Warrington, it may well not be faster at all.

 

[MarkyT]

What time advantage for London/Birmingham would such a line have over the existing alignment? If it ends up merely joining the existing line at Widnes and has to serve Widnes as well as Warrington, it may well not be faster at all.

The main advantage would be avoiding the busy multi-traffic route partly double track between Crewe and Weaver Jn shared with a lot of freight. The new route would be quite a bit longer, but faster for further, and some if not all Liverpool trains could avoid a Crewe stop if 400m capability could be provided all the way. I suggest alternate London trains could stop at Widnes South and Liverpool South Parkway with NPRs all stopping at both. All trains would stop at Warrington. Another idea would be for HS2 Liverpool trains to split at Warrington, with a slow portion calling at Widnes and LSP detaching and a fast portion rushing ahead of it straight to the terminus; that would avoid the need for 400m platforms at all stations on the spur, apart from Warrington.

 

[Meerkat]

What time advantage for London/Birmingham would such a line have over the existing alignment? If it ends up merely joining the existing line at Widnes and has to serve Widnes as well as Warrington, it may well not be faster at all.

It wouldn’t have to join the existing line at Widnes - it could have a new route through to a new terminus, or upgraded fast lines. This is just a way to get the line through Warrington and Widnes

 

[Bradway]

There is no actual radioactive material at Risley (Birchwood). The work there is primarily for design and (structural) materials assessment.

Apart from the fact that the Manchester University Nuclear reactor that was there.

Apart from Amec having radio-chemical analysis laboratories (NIRAS) there that hold radio-chemical materials under the REPPIER regulations. Apart from the bomb lorries from Aldermaston to Faslane that used to park up on National Nuclear Companys site in Risley overnight to be looked after by the Civil Nuclear Constabulary (that did stop in the 1990s, true).

There are many Gigga Bequerels of radioactivity legitimately still on the Risley / Birchwood site. You can google the Environment Agency licences under REPPIER to find out.

I'd wager £10,000 we'll see an SMR in Lancashire before we see HS2!!!!

Any takers?

 

[Bevan Price]

HS2 Ltd has proposed junctions on HS2 around Millington/Rostherne (roughly where the Manchester branch separates from the Golborne route to the WCML).
That's close to where the A556 crosses the M56.
So a new line would probably need to follow the M56 alignment south of Warrington, or possibly head for the M62 north of Warrington.
The southern alignment might cross the Mersey around Fiddlers Ferry.
The old "straight line" CLC by-pass alignment through Warrington, crossing the WCML at Dallam, has been lost in recent years.
There's been huge development north and south of Warrington lately.
Widnes might be a bit easier, as there's still a lot of industrial land available.
But there must be a question mark about any intermediate stations, if there are none being built between London and Birmingham.
Maybe a park and ride around Fiddlers Ferry, or around Winwick if they take a northern route.
Otherwise, the new route will be no faster than the old ones.

Yes, I expect - if it is ever built, there will be no stations for either Widnes or Warrington. For a totally new line, long tunnels would be needed to clear the suburbs of both Liverpool & Manchester. It would save a lot of money if they connected with the Crewe - Manchester HS2 route, rather than build a separate new tunnel into central Manchester. So your route close to the M56 seems logical -- if feasible, a triangular connection would be useful for Liverpool to southbound HS2 services.

The bigger problem seems to be at the Liverpool end -- how to fit a high speed line between existing developed areas - and where does it cross the Mersey & Ship Canal. If you cross west of Widnes / Runcorn, it would need a very long (= expensive) bridge or tunnel to get close to the M56 corridor. Therefore a river crossing somewhere near Fiddlers Ferry seems a better option, with the line then heading roughly SE towards the M56 near Stretton (south of Warrington.) That might use an "upgraded / realigned" Ditton/Warrington line, or it might take a completely new route north of Cronton & Widnes.

A route parallel to the M62 from south of Huyton to somewhere north of Culcheth seems just about feasible, but to get to the Crewe/Manchester part of HS2 would require a sharpish curve to pass west of Irlam but east of Lymm. If you continued parallel to the M62, you would need a new, longish tunnel from somewhere near the Trafford Centre into central Manchester.

Of course, someone may just decide that it is too expensive to provide HS lines for Liverpool.

 

[PartyOperator]

I'd wager £10,000 we'll see an SMR in Lancashire before we see HS2!!!!

Any takers?

No, since (at least by the present definition of the county) HS2 won't go as far as Lancashire and Heysham is in Lancashire. Warrington is in Cheshire.