Could HS1 services be sped up?

[NorthKent1989]

It’s only 30 mins faster to Kings Cross by HS1 than it is to reach Victoria which takes 2 hours currently from Margate, the faster route on the HS1 is via Canterbury rather than via Faversham.

Is there a way to speed up HS1?

 

[JonathanH]

Is there a way to speed up HS1?

Are you sure it is HS1 that needs speeding up? The class 395 units already can't run at line speed.

The line speed east of Ashford is perhaps where attention would be focused. Isn't it currently 60mph on the route via Canterbury West?

Eurostar reaches Dollands Moor from St Pancras in 30 minutes. It takes 37 minutes for a 395 to reach Ashford. It takes 50 minutes to get from Ashford to Margate.

 

[MPW]

The biggest impact on average speeds is the numper of stops between margate and london via faversham. Medway Towns especially slow things down. Skipping some stops would make it faster but would also reduce available capacity for anything that does stop. Otherwise it would need some expensive tunneling!

 

[cle]

I would say the route from Gravesend to Faversham is the part that needs speeding up. The issue is that it is practically a metro, especially Rochester, east - as many services converge and almost all stop at all stations, and provide a very busy local service too between the towns.

If you did Gravesend-Chatham-Faversham for instance, firstly you'd have howls (Rochester, Gillingham, Sittingbourne, even Rainham - all in a 1.5-2.m range, ie rounding errors, they're about the same) - and secondly you would have things catching up.

Like many lines, the end parts have to run local. Except, at Faversham, this de-urbanizes again and in theory can stand up much faster services, esp via Canterbury East. The coast line is arguably more stopping territory.

But I agree, that urban crawl - really starting east of Dartford - would be great to speed up. But it's all really testament to sprawl and that the Medway line is a mini-metro stretch.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I would say the route from Gravesend to Faversham is the part that needs speeding up. The issue is that it is practically a metro, especially Rochester, east - as many services converge and almost all stop at all stations, and provide a very busy local service too between the towns.

If you did Gravesend-Chatham-Faversham for instance, firstly you'd have howls (Rochester, Gillingham, Sittingbourne, even Rainham - all in a 1.5-2.m range, ie rounding errors, they're about the same) - and secondly you would have things catching up.

Like many lines, the end parts have to run local. Except, at Faversham, this de-urbanizes again and in theory can stand up much faster services, esp via Canterbury East. The coast line is arguably more stopping territory.

But I agree, that urban crawl - really starting east of Dartford - would be great to speed up. But it's all really testament to sprawl and that the Medway line is a mini-metro stretch.

This is my point, you’re right The Faversham route is pretty much like a metro route, and isn’t really that much faster than the Victoria train, I think you could lose Birchington, Rainham for sure perhaps even Rochester and Gillingham as you say.

 

[brad465]

Are you sure it is HS1 that needs speeding up? The class 395 units already can't run at line speed.

The line speed east of Ashford is perhaps where attention would be focused. Isn't it currently 60mph on the route via Canterbury West?

Eurostar reaches Dollands Moor from St Pancras in 30 minutes. It takes 37 minutes for a 395 to reach Ashford. It takes 50 minutes to get from Ashford to Margate.

It used to be 70mph, with a slower (50mph?) restriction at Chilham due to curvature. They upgraded it to 80mph, but added a slower differential for freight (either 55 or 65mph IIRC). Northeast of Canterbury they're supposed to be upgrading it from 70 to 90mph, but don't believe this is done yet. East of Ashford if power supply enhancements were possible a 395 might be able to do 100mph, apparently they're not able to utilise full power on that stretch and only get to 100mph when going downhill, but happy to be corrected if wrong.

Of course with some fancy crayons were it feasible to build a couple of chords to get off HS1 at Dollands Moor onto the SEML for Folkestone, and vice versa, you could speed them up further by allowing more HS1 running, but there's no way that will be worth doing for a few minutes off of an hourly service with extensive earth/bridgeworks.

I would say the route from Gravesend to Faversham is the part that needs speeding up. The issue is that it is practically a metro, especially Rochester, east - as many services converge and almost all stop at all stations, and provide a very busy local service too between the towns.

If you did Gravesend-Chatham-Faversham for instance, firstly you'd have howls (Rochester, Gillingham, Sittingbourne, even Rainham - all in a 1.5-2.m range, ie rounding errors, they're about the same) - and secondly you would have things catching up.

Like many lines, the end parts have to run local. Except, at Faversham, this de-urbanizes again and in theory can stand up much faster services, esp via Canterbury East. The coast line is arguably more stopping territory.

But I agree, that urban crawl - really starting east of Dartford - would be great to speed up. But it's all really testament to sprawl and that the Medway line is a mini-metro stretch.

Gillingham-Faversham non-stop wouldn't be unrealistic, as summer specials have done this before, and this is where line speeds are high enough that a measurable time saving could be made. You might as well call at Strood and Rochester as the line speed is slow through them anyway (15 and 30mph respectively).

 

[NorthKent1989]

It used to be 70mph, with a slower (50mph?) restriction at Chilham due to curvature. They upgraded it to 80mph, but added a slower differential for freight (either 55 or 65mph IIRC). Northeast of Canterbury they're supposed to be upgrading it from 70 to 90mph, but don't believe this is done yet. East of Ashford if power supply enhancements were possible a 395 might be able to do 100mph, apparently they're not able to utilise full power on that stretch and only get to 100mph when going downhill, but happy to be corrected if wrong.

Of course with some fancy crayons were it feasible to build a couple of chords to get off HS1 at Dollands Moor onto the SEML for Folkestone, and vice versa, you could speed them up further by allowing more HS1 running, but there's no way that will be worth doing for a few minutes off of an hourly service with extensive earth/bridgeworks.


Gillingham-Faversham non-stop wouldn't be unrealistic, as summer specials have done this before, and this is where line speeds are high enough that a measurable time saving could be made. You might as well call at Strood and Rochester as the line speed is slow through them anyway (15 and 30mph respectively).

The old Woolwich line services to Ramsgate use to run fast from Gillingham to Whitstable, so I’m surprised the HS1 service basically calls at all theses stations.

I can understand the Kent Coast line having all stops since I’m certain the HS1 service is now their only service or they have a less frequent service than the Faversham route, (correct me if I’m wrong)

I think the HS1 could easily be fast Faversham to Gillingham or even Chatham, then fast to Gravesend, then perhaps a “HS1 stopper” could start from Faversham calling at the intermediate stations.

 

[cle]

I agree with that, although I imagine it’s only be needed in peaks. But possibly weekends too!

And a lot of influential / mobile people moved out to Whitstable, Margate etc even before covid, HS1 domestic enabled a lot of interesting lifestyle choices.

A faster service along to Dartford would also be a better Crossrail feeder. It’s not super busy in passenger terms - although enough freight - and I think Gravesend could turn less metros (make them loopers and up frequency) and have faster patterns instead.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I agree with that, although I imagine it’s only be needed in peaks. But possibly weekends too!

And a lot of influential / mobile people moved out to Whitstable, Margate etc even before covid, HS1 domestic enabled a lot of interesting lifestyle choices.

A faster service along to Dartford would also be a better Crossrail feeder. It’s not super busy in passenger terms - although enough freight - and I think Gravesend could turn less metros (make them loopers and up frequency) and have faster patterns instead.

A mate of mine moved to Margate in 2022, affair few commuters were hoping for a service to Abbey Wood for CrossRail connectivity, there does seem to be some demand down there for such a link.

As you say, the Thanet towns have had a fair few mobile people move down there, Whitstable down to Ramsgate has become a popular London exclave.

Home working has probably killed off such an idea, but I do think there is potential for a Thanet-Faversham-Medway-Gravesend-Dartford-SE London-London service, perhaps a restructuring of the current Thameslink service on that line

 

[cle]

I would think the fast jaunt to St Pancras will ever outweigh the pain of enduring the ride to Abbey Wood. Even if there was a faster inbound pattern (e.g. Rochester-Gravesend-Dartford-Abbey Wood)

Just a shame Stratford Intl isn't so well connected, a better Crossrail link would disabuse the whole Abbey Wood thing.