Could HS1 trains be diverted via Dagenham?

[ShadowKnight]

Can HS1 uk loading gauge trains be diverted through the freight junction in dagenham?
Could the southeastern and eurostar cl 373 trains be diverted to other stations in london or to St pancras via the goblin and NLL?

Has this ever happened or are there contingencies for this?

Also, not sure where to put this.

 

[Ianno87]

There's no way to get into St Pancras without at least one reversal.

Route would be Dagenham-Barking-Forest Gate-Stratford-Canonbury-Camden Rd (reverse)-St Pancras.

But a 400m Eurostar would be too long to reverse between signals at Camden Road.

 

[Southern Dvr]

When Eurostar served Waterloo there were emergency facilities (customs/immigration etc) at Kensington Olympia in case Waterloo was unavailable. Don't think they ever got used.
These days if St Pancras was unavailable I believe Ebbsfleet is the alternate as they would say in airline parlance.

 

[route101]

When Eurostar served Waterloo there were emergency facilities (customs/immigration etc) at Kensington Olympia in case Waterloo was unavailable. Don't think they ever got used.
These days if St Pancras was unavailable I believe Ebbsfleet is the alternate as they would say in airline parlance.

Airline parlance? What is that?

 

[Bungle]

In aviation our “alternate” is the nominated second airport to where we will divert, and for which we carry a planned amount of fuel, should a landing at the primary destination be unexpectedly unavailable for whatever reason. It is designated on the flight plan, a legal document. There are circumstances where no alternate can be given, and some circumstances where two are required but we’re getting a bit deep there!

In the context of the last post it means should St P be unavailable at short notice when the train is enroute, the service will be terminated at Ebbsfleet instead, if I’ve understood correctly!

 

[Ianno87]

Airline parlance? What is that?

Airline terminology.

When a pilot files their flight plan with Air Traffic Control, an Alternate Airport is specified in case they are unable to land at their intended destination (e.g. due to poor weather or an incident).

E.g. Many flights bound for Heathrow may state Manchester as an alternate.

 

[route101]

In aviation our “alternate” is the nominated second airport to where we will divert, and for which we carry a planned amount of fuel, should a landing at the primary destination be unexpectedly unavailable for whatever reason. It is designated on the flight plan, a legal document. There are circumstances where no alternate can be given, and some circumstances where two are required but we’re getting a bit deep there!

In the context of the last post it means should St P be unavailable at short notice when the train is enroute, the service will be terminated at Ebbsfleet instead, if I’ve understood correctly!

I get you know, kinda misread he post.

 

[AverageTD]

What is actually the emergency plan for Eurostars if Dagenham isn’t a viable alternative. Would they just only sell tickets to Ebbsfleet and tell people they’re on their own or supply a ticket that lets them use the NKL?

 

[TFN]

My assumption is dump passengers off at Ebbsfleet or Ashford and have ticket acceptance in place with southeastern?

And if it was planned engineering then I'm just guessing Eurostar wouldn't run that day?

 

[Ianno87]

My assumption is dump passengers off at Ebbsfleet or Ashford and have ticket acceptance in place with southeastern?

And if it was planned engineering then I'm just guessing Eurostar wouldn't run that day?

In an incident, dump at Ebbsfleet, or hold passengers on trains until it clears (given Southeastern will also likely be affected!)

For planned works, either no operation, or a reduced timetable using a single line (not that I think that's ever happened).

 

[Southern Dvr]

The problem with Ebbsfleet is that it’s in the middle of nowhere and unlike Kenny O doesn’t get people into London especially as mentioned earlier if HS1 is down north of Ebbsfleet then it takes out South Eastern too.

logistically Ashford is better due to classic line connections but you’ve got to get immigration and customs safe there and there’s the Class 374 issue.

the other advantage Kenny O had was that the stock could easily be moved up to North Pole Depot once detrained but that would be less straightforward at Ebbsfleet or Ashford.

 

[jopsuk]

Someone's going to go "couldn't Statford be activated in an emergency" and the answers include "probably not that easily" and "if you want to terminate trains in platform 1 and start them back in platform 4 you need to reverse three times (domestic trains at 2/3 have a scissors crossover just east of the station but not accessible to the international platforms, and wouldn't need to have specific arrival/departure platforms). extract from cartometro.com:

 

[Southern Dvr]

Someone's going to go "couldn't Statford be activated in an emergency" and the answers include "probably not that easily" and "if you want to terminate trains in platform 1 and start them back in platform 4 you need to reverse three times (domestic trains at 2/3 have a scissors crossover just east of the station but not accessible to the international platforms, and wouldn't need to have specific arrival/departure platforms). extract from cartometro.com:
View attachment 84949

Stratford only works in theory at least if the block was between there and St Pancras though. So we are talking about it being just St Pancras being unavailable. in the Waterloo days you had Ashford, Kensington and Waterloo as ‘end points’ whereas now you have Ashford (374s allowing) Ebbsfleet (possibly Stratford but j think border control facilities aren’t available there) and St Pancras.

Terminating or doing anything with a Eurostar at a location that doesn’t have border controls is a nightmare. I recall back in the late 90s a passenger had a heart attack on a Eurostar and the train was stopped at Bromley South for medical assistance, there was a long delay getting the doors open due to the various border restrictions.

Also the 1997 tour ‘Last In, Last Out’ featured a run through of the International station at Ashford and because the train was formed of 8-VEP there were regular constant announcements telling people that if anyone opened a door or tried to get off there then there would be all sorts of problems!

 

[quantinghome]

Airline parlance? What is that?

It's how aircraft crew speak to each other, but that's not important right now...

 

[Ianno87]

Someone's going to go "couldn't Statford be activated in an emergency" and the answers include "probably not that easily" and "if you want to terminate trains in platform 1 and start them back in platform 4 you need to reverse three times (domestic trains at 2/3 have a scissors crossover just east of the station but not accessible to the international platforms, and wouldn't need to have specific arrival/departure platforms). extract from cartometro.com:
View attachment 84949

If just St. Pancras is unavailable, then you have the option of continuing to the North London Line connection outside St. Pancras and reversing on that to return to Platform 1 or Temple Mills (assuming no route knowledge issues etc.)

 

[bussikuski179]

If an Eurostar terminates at Ebbsfleet, couldn’t they just bus people to Northfleet which is just a 6 minute drive instead? Ebbsfleet has border control facilities doesn’t it? Northfleet also has connections to St Pancras with 12 car trains so capacity wouldn’t really be a problem, except maybe if the Eurostar was totally packed. Of course getting departing passengers onto the Eurostar would be a problem if this were to be done.

 

[XAM2175]

Are we sure that border controls are a problem nowadays? Eurostar passengers coming to the UK are cleared by UK immigration officers in Paris/Lille/Brussels etc, not on arrival.

Of course the introduction of customs formalities (in currently-unknown locations) on 01/01/21 could change things again.

 

[Ianno87]

If an Eurostar terminates at Ebbsfleet, couldn’t they just bus people to Northfleet which is just a 6 minute drive instead? Ebbsfleet has border control facilities doesn’t it? Northfleet also has connections to St Pancras with 12 car trains so capacity wouldn’t really be a problem, except maybe if the Eurostar was totally packed. Of course getting departing passengers onto the Eurostar would be a problem if this were to be done.

1. Alot of busses.
2. Not 12-cars off-peak
3. Narrow platforms, not step free (I don't think)...

 

[Alfie1014]

When Eurostar served Waterloo there were emergency facilities (customs/immigration etc) at Kensington Olympia in case Waterloo was unavailable. Don't think they ever got used.
These days if St Pancras was unavailable I believe Ebbsfleet is the alternate as they would say in airline parlance.

They did very occasionally. A friend of mine was on an evening Paris Nord to Waterloo service in the 90s that got diverted quite late on to Kenny. There was a mad dash for taxis (which she says the French crew were at the front of the queue for!) Luckily she only needed to get home to south London but there must have been some very late home passengers! Not sure how customs etc were dealt with or why a return to Ashford wasn't used either? More recently (post HS1) hasn't there been the odd occasion where traisn have returned to their origin (i.e. Paris or Brussels?)

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Is the original poster actually asking if trains could go onto the legacy network in order to then continue as a through service to an alternative place?

 

[MarkyT]

1. Alot of busses.
2. Not 12-cars off-peak
3. Narrow platforms, not step free (I don't think)...

Yet Northfleet station platforms are under 300m from the nearest entrance to Ebbsfleet International through a car park as the crow flies, an easy walk if a decent pedestrian link was provided, but the operator has resisted easy access on foot apparently because criminals intent on robbing and damaging customer cars NEVER arrive in their own vehicles! Nearly a km by the shortest walking route today, not very accessible, secure and ill-signposted routes. Doesn't help that the stations are in adjacent, politically opposed local authority areas either. See here, Item 16, p65-70:

https://democracy.gravesham.gov.uk/documents/g1076/Public%20reports%20pack%20Wednesday%2016-Dec-2009%2019.00%20Gravesham%20Joint%20Transportation%20Board.pdf?T=10

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2020 ==

Is the original poster actually asking if trains could go onto the legacy network in order to then continue as a through service to an alternative place?

I wondered that. Perhaps an alternative London terminus destination for some expanded SE domestic HS services to overcome capacity limitations at St Pancras International.

 

[Ianno87]

Yet Northfleet station platforms are under 300m from the nearest entrance to Ebbsfleet International through a car park as the crow flies, an easy walk if a decent pedestrian link was provided, but the operator has resisted easy access on foot apparently because criminals intent on robbing and damaging customer cars NEVER arrive in their own vehicles! Nearly a km by the shortest walking route today, not very accessible, secure and ill-signposted routes. Doesn't help that the stations are in adjacent, politically opposed local authority areas either. See here, Item 16, p65-70:

Agree - a 'cheap and cheerful' walking route across the car park ought not to be a massive ask...

I wondered that. Perhaps an alternative London terminus destination for some expanded SE domestic HS services to overcome capacity limitations at St Pancras International.

Good luck finding a London Terminal with spare capacity at the terminal, and capacity to get there (and being fast enough to be a decent alternative to a fast run into St. P)

 

[MarkyT]

Good luck finding a London Terminal with spare capacity at the terminal, and capacity to get there (and being fast enough to be a decent alternative to a fast run into St. P)

Indeed. I thought maybe Liverpool Street capacity freed up by Crossrail, but it's not realistic to squeeze the trains through the Forest Gate - Pudding Mill Lane section to get to it. Perhaps a new link between Plaistow and Pudding Mill Lane could be built, following the Northern Outfall Sewer and relieving Fenchurch St. as well. I'm thinking just one stop for the fasts, at Barking.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's how aircraft crew speak to each other, but that's not important right now...

*Like button*

 

[ShadowKnight]

Is the original poster actually asking if trains could go onto the legacy network in order to then continue as a through service to an alternative place?

Well sort of both. I was wondering if there were any backup plans/examples for HS1, and if different things could be done for the domestic /International trains. I mean you could send the southeastern trains liverpool /fenchurch Street for example.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Well sort of both. I was wondering if there were any backup plans/examples for HS1, and if different things could be done for the domestic /International trains. I mean you could send the southeastern trains liverpool /fenchurch Street for example.

Southeastern are not in bad shape. You stop at Ebbsfleet from Medway, and then people go in from Gravesend on classic. Same at Ashford.

No point trying to get drivers competent on two terminals that couldn’t handle extra trains one would have to suggest.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Hmm, that is true