Could HS2 have terminated at St Pancras?

[uglymonkey]

Moderator note: split from

HS2 Old Oak Common

I had been expecting to see this in the HS2 Construction thread but it has been closed and I can't find another thread that is suitable. https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/hs2-contractors-make-progress-on-station-box-piling-and-utilities-at-old-oak-common-16-12-2022/ HS2 contractors...

www.railforums.co.uk

Never understood why they didn't plan to terminate it in st pancras anyway, to connect to HS1.

 

[GardenRail]

Never understood why they didn't plan to terminate it in st pancras anyway, to connect to HS1.

Because that would be a true integrated network....

 

[swt_passenger]

Never understood why they didn't plan to terminate it in st pancras anyway, to connect to HS1.

No space at all for more platforms, either above or below ground. Not enough demand for travel between HS2 and HS1 to justify special connection arrangements.

 

[leananger]

"Not enough demand for travel between HS2 and HS1 to justify special connection arrangements."
How do you know, wouldn't be great to be able to travel from Birmingham or further north to Paris say on one train, that would not stay at St Pancras for that long.

 

[HSTEd]

"Not enough demand for travel between HS2 and HS1 to justify special connection arrangements."
How do you know, wouldn't be great to be able to travel from Birmingham or further north to Paris say on one train, that would not stay at St Pancras for that long.

Because even if the entire air market switched, there would not be enough traffic.

 

[swt_passenger]

"Not enough demand for travel between HS2 and HS1 to justify special connection arrangements."
How do you know, wouldn't be great to be able to travel from Birmingham or further north to Paris say on one train, that would not stay at St Pancras for that long.

I know basically because a believable assessment was published by DfT prior to the link being cancelled. But if you simply compared the total number of trains per day on the WCML into Euston, and the number of Eurostar services per day, and then consider that demand for Eurostar is shared amongst all the other routes into London, then it’s reasonably obvious that the proportion of international travellers per train into Euston is very small.

 

[baffobear]

I know basically because a believable assessment was published by DfT prior to the link being cancelled. But if you simply compared the total number of trains per day on the WCML into Euston, and the number of Eurostar services per day, and then consider that demand for Eurostar is shared amongst all the other routes into London, then it’s reasonably obvious that the proportion of international travellers per train into Euston is very small.

There's also HS1 Domestic Services from Kent.. HS2 to HS1 via a connecting tunnel combined would provide a lovely Central London avoiding line.

 

[DelW]

"Not enough demand for travel between HS2 and HS1 to justify special connection arrangements."
How do you know, wouldn't be great to be able to travel from Birmingham or further north to Paris say on one train, that would not stay at St Pancras for that long.

That would need secure segregated platforms and border controls at each and every pickup point. I can't imagine that trying to fit that into New Street would be feasible, let alone economically viable for the number of available passengers.

The only way to avoid that would be the Lille solution, where everyone disembarks at SPI, goes through the controls, and reboards - which is little different from walking from Euston and doing the same thing.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's also HS1 Domestic Services from Kent.. HS2 to HS1 via a connecting tunnel combined would provide a lovely Central London avoiding line.

I believe that was also looked at and found to be pointless. But various proposals for through running ‘somewhere’ have been almost continuously repeated ever since i joined the forum, and AFAICT have never been persued officially.

 

[Bald Rick]

Never understood why they didn't plan to terminate it in st pancras anyway, to connect to HS1.

Which Grade 1 listed building would you demolish for it - the British Library or Kings Cross?

 

[uglymonkey]

British library, rebuild it at a cost of 2.2 billion in Scunthorpe.

 

[Noddy]

That would need secure segregated platforms and border controls at each and every pickup point. I can't imagine that trying to fit that into New Street would be feasible, let alone economically viable for the number of available passengers.

HS2 isn’t planned to run to New Street, unless things have changed even more dramatically in the last week than I understood.

Personally I can see both sides of the argument. The cost would be astronomically expensive, but comparisons to existing flows ignore the history of build it and they will come, and the elephant in the room-the real world cost of aviation.

 

[DelW]

HS2 isn’t planned to run to New Street, unless things have changed even more dramatically in the last week than I understood.

Personally I can see both sides of the argument. The cost would be astronomically expensive, but comparisons to existing flows ignore the history of build it and they will come, and the elephant in the room-the real world cost of aviation.

Quite right, should have been Curzon St . Would still need a lot of design modifications though.

Since Eurostar have opted not to even reopen their existing platforms at Ebbsfleet and Ashford, there's little chance of them putting border and check in staff at other locations around the country.

Although by the time whatever's left of HS2 finally opens, we might have abandoned Brexit as well, in among all the other u-turns .

 

[Chester1]

Never understood why they didn't plan to terminate it in st pancras anyway, to connect to HS1.

The only site that was seriously considered (apart from Euston) was between St Pancras and Kings Cross. It was ruled out because it would have required the destruction of most of the area around Regent's Cannal, St Pancras Basin and a number of heritage sites. The engineering challenges were much bigger than Euston too. It would have essentially created a 36 platform Kings Cross St Pancras station and massively strained underground capacity. It wasn't impossible but not worth the problems and costs compared to Euston.

How do you know, wouldn't be great to be able to travel from Birmingham or further north to Paris say on one train, that would not stay at St Pancras for that long.

There are 4 flights per day from Birmingham to Paris and collectively they have slightly fewer seats than one Eurostar train. A significant number of passengers will be transfering onto long haul Air France services too. If we joined Schengen and built HS2 to Manchester and Leeds then maybe collectively there could be 1 tph of regional Eurostar services. Provincial England to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam are not as big markets as people think.

 

[stephen rp]

Yet we'd never have had HS1 but for regional MPs being promised through services to the Continent.

 

[zwk500]

Yet we'd never have had HS1 but for regional MPs being promised through services to the Continent.

Getting something built through politically necessary sops is slightly different to making the fundamental case for building something in the first place.

 

[mike57]

I think it would have been a better solution for HS2 to terminate at King X St Pancras, even if through HS1-2 services were not provided. But that bird has well and truly flown. When the Kings Cross area was redeveloped leaving room for rail expansion would have been sensible. Yes I know its only a 10-15 minute walk from Euston to Kings Cross, but if you have luggage/dont know where you are going its probably less attractive.

It got a good airing in a thread here a while back.

Consider the connectivity from Kings Cross compared with Euston, Kings Cross St Pancras has Domestic HS1 services to Kent, Eurostar, 3 deep level tube lines and the Circle/Met/H&C, Thameslink services to Surrey, Sussex & South London. ECML services, local and long distance, Midland Main Line again local and long distance.

Had there been the vision and political will Kings Cross St Pancras could have become a "London Terminus" with the addition of HS2 meaning that it would become the terminus for everything north of London. Crossrail would probably have been routed via Kings Cross as well giving connectivity to Heathrow, with Gatwick already served by Thameslink. But all this is firmly in the category of "what could have been"

As someone who has travelled through Kings Cross for close to 60 years the improvements over time are most welcome but that doesn't detract from the feeling that it could have been better, anyone who used this area in the late 70s and early 80s in particular will remember the issues.

 

[SargeNpton]

Consider the connectivity from Kings Cross compared with Euston, Kings Cross St Pancras has Domestic HS1 services to Kent, Eurostar, 3 deep level tube lines and the Circle/Met/H&C, Thameslink services to Surrey, Sussex & South London. ECML services, local and long distance, Midland Main Line again local and long distance.

Had there been the vision and political will Kings Cross St Pancras could have become a "London Terminus" with the addition of HS2 meaning that it would become the terminus for everything north of London. Crossrail would probably have been routed via Kings Cross as well giving connectivity to Heathrow, with Gatwick already served by Thameslink. But all this is firmly in the category of "what could have been"

Diverting all north of London traffic to one mega-terminal would overwhelm the Underground and buses at that station. Look at Euston/Euston Square in the peaks and imagine those all using Kings Cross/St Pancras on top of its existing footfall.

 

[mike57]

Diverting all north of London traffic to one mega-terminal would overwhelm the Underground and buses at that station.

I think if the development had taken that path it could have been managed, after all Gare Du Nord has around 290m passengers per year. If you went down the mega terminal route you would need to provide adequate capacity in other areas. With vision and a will it could have been done, but as I said, its way too late. A real blank sheet of paper approach, provide adequate road space for the flow of buses, how about extending the Waterloo and city to Kings X? You wouldnt just dump a mega station in the area and leave it at that. The front of Euston is horrible anyway, and a lot of people who currently join the tube/underground at Euston or Euston Square join the same trains that go through Kings Cross.

 

[Basil Jet]

how about extending the Waterloo and city to Kings X?

Since Waterloo and Bank are both 1.9 miles from Kings Cross, I have to wonder which end were you going to extend to Kings Cross?

 

[paul1609]

There's also HS1 Domestic Services from Kent.. HS2 to HS1 via a connecting tunnel combined would provide a lovely Central London avoiding line.

I think you probably overestimate the number of people travelling from Kent to "north of London". I live on the northern fringe of Romney Marsh most people go on holiday to Europe or Cornwall.
From here Brugge is about the same distance as Milton Keynes, Paris is closer than Stoke on Trent, Geneva or Bern are closer than Inverness. If you conducted a survey most people in my village have never been to Scotland and will have been to the lake District once in their lifetime probably on a coach tour.

 

[urbophile]

That would need secure segregated platforms and border controls at each and every pickup point. I can't imagine that trying to fit that into New Street would be feasible, let alone economically viable for the number of available passengers.

The only way to avoid that would be the Lille solution, where everyone disembarks at SPI, goes through the controls, and reboards - which is little different from walking from Euston and doing the same thing.

The best way to avoid that would be to rejoin the EU and join Schengen.

 

[DelW]

The best way to avoid that would be to rejoin the EU and join Schengen.

Hence my comment in post #13:

Since Eurostar have opted not to even reopen their existing platforms at Ebbsfleet and Ashford, there's little chance of them putting border and check in staff at other locations around the country.

Although by the time whatever's left of HS2 finally opens, we might have abandoned Brexit as well, in among all the other u-turns .

Though sadly, I think the likelihood is negligible for at least a decade if ever.

 

[mike57]

I think you probably overestimate the number of people travelling from Kent to "north of London"

I agree based on current transport links, but if you had joined the domestic HS1 services with the London Birmingham HS2 services you would acheive a high speed version of Thameslink or Crossrail, joining up existing lines. Apart from the missing link its not anything new. Once the journeys are possible and quick people will make them. If Eurostar then served Ashford again a High Speed service starting at Birmingham, calling Old Oak Common, London terminal, Stratford and/or Ebbsfleet and Ashford where people could change for Eurostar might take some of the pressure off the Eurostar St Pancras terminal as well as offering some new fast cross London journeys. But as I said earlier, that bird has well and truly flown...

I think future generations will see the whole HS2 saga as a series of missed opportunities and bad decisions, and view it in the same light as the Beeching cuts are seen today.

 

[MarkyT]

I agree based on current transport links, but if you had joined the domestic HS1 services with the London Birmingham HS2 services you would acheive a high speed version of Thameslink or Crossrail, joining up existing lines. Apart from the missing link its not anything new. Once the journeys are possible and quick people will make them. If Eurostar then served Ashford again a High Speed service starting at Birmingham, calling Old Oak Common, London terminal, Stratford and/or Ebbsfleet and Ashford where people could change for Eurostar might take some of the pressure off the Eurostar St Pancras terminal as well as offering some new fast cross London journeys. But as I said earlier, that bird has well and truly flown...

I think future generations will see the whole HS2 saga as a series of missed opportunities and bad decisions, and view it in the same light as the Beeching cuts are seen today.

Maybe better to combine a limited stop, fast WCML classic service to Birmingham with the HS1 domestics, with a reversal at St Pancras. The track layout wouldn't allow it though as the classic track connections were all designed for North of London Eurostars to access the international rather than the domestic side of the station. The area either side of St Pancras isn't suitable for a new set of platforms, even the revised six being touted currently, or at least not without politically difficult demolition of yet more social housing or buildings of major cultural significance. Something might have been concocted in the goods yard area before development, but the walk there would be as far as if not more than getting to Euston. I still think improving pedestrian connections between Euston and St Pancras has to be a major priority even without HS2, as it would also link WCML services better to Thameslink and the HS1 domestic javelins. Current routes are complex, over-long, dirty, and noisy, and perceived to be insecure, but could be enhanced fairly economically. The TfL scheme for significant Phoenix Rd/Brill Place improvements and a new east-side entrance at Euston using the redundant parcels deck for platform access would be a great start.

 

[mike57]

Maybe better to combine a limited stop, fast WCML classic service to Birmingham with the HS1 domestics, with a reversal at St Pancras. The track layout wouldn't allow it though as the classic track connections were all designed for North of London Eurostars to access the international rather than the domestic side of the station. The area either side of St Pancras isn't suitable for a new set of platforms, even the revised six being touted currently, or at least not without politically difficult demolition of yet more social housing or buildings of major cultural significance. Something might have been concocted in the goods yard area before development, but the walk there would be as far as if not more than getting to Euston. I still think improving pedestrian connections between Euston and St Pancras has to be a major priority even without HS2, as it would also link WCML services better to Thameslink and the HS1 domestic javelins. Current routes are complex, over-long, dirty, and noisy, and perceived to be insecure, but could be enhanced fairly economically. The TfL scheme for significant Phoenix Rd/Brill Place improvements and a new east-side entrance at Euston using the redundant parcels deck for platform access would be a great start.

I agree that doing anything now beyond creating a decent walking route between Euston and Kings Cross St Pancras is just not possible, but if you go back to when the Kings Cross area was being redeveloped and improved things could have been different. St Pancras International is very much constrained by space and this limits passenger numbers. In a parallel universe build a new Midland mainline station where they built the British Library. HS2 and domestic HS1 service terminates in St Pancras station, a new international station either in the triangle of land between Kings X and St Pancras or to the east. Bearing in mind back in the 70s and early 80s the whole area was run down, so in effect you had a blank sheet of paper. When did the idea of HS1 terminating at St Pancras surface, I understood original proposals were for tunnel under south London still terminating at Waterloo. Its very much crayon thinking as other developments have constrained space to expand and its no longer possible.

 

[geoffk]

Although by the time whatever's left of HS2 finally opens, we might have abandoned Brexit as well, in among all the other u-turns .

And we might have joined Schengen as well! Of course that's not going too well at the moment.

 

[swt_passenger]

I agree that doing anything now beyond creating a decent walking route between Euston and Kings Cross St Pancras is just not possible, but if you go back to when the Kings Cross area was being redeveloped and improved things could have been different. St Pancras International is very much constrained by space and this limits passenger numbers. In a parallel universe build a new Midland mainline station where they built the British Library. HS2 and domestic HS1 service terminates in St Pancras station, a new international station either in the triangle of land between Kings X and St Pancras or to the east. Bearing in mind back in the 70s and early 80s the whole area was run down, so in effect you had a blank sheet of paper. When did the idea of HS1 terminating at St Pancras surface, I understood original proposals were for tunnel under south London still terminating at Waterloo. Its very much crayon thinking as other developments have constrained space to expand and its no longer possible.

Consulting Engineers Arup independently lobbied for the eventual route to St Pancras via Dagenham, Stratford and the NLL corridor in the late 1980s. By 1989 BR had intended to build a route via SE London into a tunnel to an underground Kings Cross station. The BR proposed route required massive amounts of demolition and was dropped in favour of the Arup route to St Pancras in about 1991. I don’t recall a tunnelled route direct to Waterloo being planned, if it was it must have been a short lived possibility. I think there was even an idea to head for the White City area at one stage.

 

[SargeNpton]

Consulting Engineers Arup independently lobbied for the eventual route to St Pancras via Dagenham, Stratford and the NLL corridor in the mid to late 1980s. BR had intended a route via SE London into a tunnel to an underground Kings Cross station. The BR proposed route required massive amounts of demolition and was dropped in favour of the Arup route to St Pancras in about 1991. I don’t recall a tunnelled route direct to Waterloo being planned.

I have a plan of the proposed station under Kings Cross. Been a while since I looked at it but it's got to be 15 feet long so far too big to take a picture of. Must dig it out of my archives sometime.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have a plan of the proposed station under Kings Cross. Been a while since I looked at it but it's got to be 15 feet long so far too big to take a picture of. Must dig it out of my archives sometime.

Would have had to be pretty deep to miss all the existing LU lines and station tunnels, so I think it’s hard to picture exactly where it would have gone in relation to the two existing mainline stations. I’ve read somewhere that it was to be on a NW/SE alignment.